Non-Visual C++ IDE?

#1 Eclipse www.eclipse.org or if your on Linux, get K Develop 3, works like a charm for me, i just create a new project copy the contents in the torque folder to the project folder, and it reads that make file ;)

#2 DevC++

the best alternative to VC++ for windows

#3 Thanks!

Are there docs to set up either/both of those for Torque anywhere?

I've seen eclipse mentioned several times.. never heard of DevC++ - but I'm unfamiliar with both, so either is game as far as I'm concerned. It's basically which ever has the most straight-forward, newbie-to-programming-friendly setup...

#4 Ooohkay.. so far I have DevC++ set up.. It's installed and I can look at a nice, empty program window.. heh.

Err.. where would I find information on setting it up to work with Torque? I went through and saw that there are various environment settings and such, but I don't know what to change or what to change it to...

Thanks!
Mike

#5 DevC++ will not handle the Torque project it will just hang or crash on import.
Best be is to learn now to compile from the command line, because Eclipse ( and all the others ) just use the gcc command line tools to build so you will have to understand it anyway. Visual C++ does the same thing, it just runs the command line tools for you when you click a button.

If you just want to complie patches and what not you don't need an IDE.

#6 Ahh.. see, that's what I was understanding before. However, I have to add certain files to the makefile file so I can re-compile the code, specifically for the Day-To-Night patch. I don't know how to add those files/paths to the makefile, else I'd happily do it by hand. I really don't want to learn a whole IDE just for that, but if it accomplishes that goal correctly, then I'll do so.

Do you know, perhaps, how the formatting is to add file names to the makefile manually? Where to add them, etc?

Thanks!
Mike

#7 There is plenty of documentation on makefiles on the web, have you seen this site? :-)

#8 Jarrod,

Now that's a waste of a response.

Maybe I'm way off base here, but asking for and providing help is part of what communities like this are intended for, right?

Well, please forgive me for treating it as such.

Yes, I did try searching for it on Google - as I do with everything before posting to a forum to ask about it.

I also spent a good portion of my weekend trying myself to get it to work. I installed Eclipse and tried to figure that out; inlcuding searches of the 'net, the documentation and these forums. I tried to figure out how to do it manually. I had to completely wipe out my entire Torque folder and re-download the CVS because one of my attempts totally screwed it up. I am not just looking for someone to "hold my hand" and do everything for me.

Second: The *reason* I posted here to ask is because it's in context to what I'm trying to accomplish - a patch created by a Torque community member specifically for the Torque engine. I don't know what to look for just by blindly searching on Google, or necessarily how to apply what I find to the Torque patch. I'm not a programmer... this is all new to me. Thus, I thought maybe someone in the Torque community would be able and willing to provide some help, as several have done already.

Please keep your assumptions and sarcastic remarks to yourself. If that leaves you with nothing productive or helpful to offer, or you have no desire to do so - don't reply at all.

Thank you.

#9 My point is makefiles are GENERAL KNOWLEDGE subject, you best resource is NOT going to be the GG forums. What you want to know is EXTREMELY well documented on dozens if not hundreds of places easily found via GOOGLE and not specific in any way to GG in particular. I would guess that the largest percentage of the GG community does NOT use makefiles to build Torque.

then you need to learn how to search Google better like this.

first listing tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about makefiles

you have repeatedly said you "don't want to learn something" right after asking for help on something that is easy to do if you put forth a smidgen of effort to learn it. Which indicates you "don't want to learn it", you want someone to tell you exactly what to do, which is not how these things work. There is no "easy way out" for most of these things.

plain and simple you are going to have to learn some really boring geeky convoluted crap to use the "no cost" tools.

Which you are going to realize eventually, really do "cost" something, time, which does have a monetary cost associated with it. That is why JeffT constantly suggests Visual Studio for beginners.

You spent all weekend? My weekends are worth a hell of lot more than the $70 US to get the cheapy introductory version of VS that Jeff posted a link to in the resources and not have to spend an entire weekend for nothing.

edit url syntax fix

#10 LOL!

Well.. I have been TOLD, haven't I.

What can I say.. you've got me all figured out, Jarrod. Anyone who asks a question that's obvious to you, having not been able to figure it out themselves, must just be lazy and unworthy of an any assistance beyond "use Google". That's it.

Well, I won't waste any more of your precious "valuable time" with my petty little questions. They're clearly not worthy of someone of your self-importance.

In fact, if your time is so valuable, why have you wasted any of it on this topic at all? Oh wait.. that was another question, wasn't it? I'm sorry.. I take it back.. Please don't chew me out again.

If you don't want to "waste your time" answering a question.. *Then don't answer*. That's an obvious choice, isn't it? Even *I* could figure that out.

Man.. Get over yourself.

For the record: I may have said I don't want to learn how to *program*, and that's true. However, I've already realized that I don't need to know how to program to copy-and-paste code changes and re-compile the source - all of which I already have set up to work. I only need help with patching. And after the first time, I wouldn't have to ask again.

Second.. if someone comes to me and says "You know, I'm not an artist and I really don't want to learn the whole program, but I just need to know how to create a beveled button in Photoshop that I can export with a transparent background", I'm going to take the few minutes out to provide the steps, and perhaps *also* provide links to some other helpful sites for future reference. I'm not going to basically call them lazy and tell them to go spend $70 on a book just to learn how to do *one* thing. Especially not in a forum geared toward people helping each other with the given product. That's just plain rude, in my opinion.

#11 It's called trying to teach you how to fish, to use that metaphor, not give you fish to eat, which is what you're asking : you don't want to learn the basics of programming, but you want to be able to do stuff that requires a certain amount of technical know how.
Until you go a bit farther yourself, and do some research beyond simple answers, you will always be struggling with Torque, or any other engine that comes in source form : what are you going to do when a patch fails midway through patching, because your code is not the same as when the person made the patch ?

Jarrod does come off strong, but you'll notice that he didn't make any snide comments before you freaked out : he pointed you at Google, with a smiley.
Noboby is getting paid to help you, and if you're not willing to do your homework, you'll find that less and less people are going to help you along...
If you expect more from us than just pointing you in the right direction, you're in for a world of hurt and hair pulling, as you'll never get enough of the kind of answers you're looking for...

Edit : typos

#12 Nicholas,

First, my snide remark was in response to his sarcastic and presumptuous comment "have you seen this site?" - thus impying I hadn't done *any* homework on my own and just made a bee-line straight for these forums expecting the world to flock to my doorstep and do it all for me. That is *not* what I'm doing, and I have said so a few times now. I don't know how else I have to explain it.

Let me explain the situation... maybe it'll clear things up a bit.

I am not a programmer. I do not wish to be a programmer. I do not pretend to be a programmer. Everything I am trying to do with the Torque engine, the features I wish to add, etc. I am doing because I *have* to.. because there's no one else I know or am working with who can do it. I'm a one-man team right now. Were I working with a programmer, they would be handling all this and I wouldn't need to worry about it. I'd rather be in a level editor creating architecture or in Photoshop creating textures - that's where I'm "at home" - not in an IDE looking at code that I find very interesting, but don't understand, or doing searches on Google without even being sure what I'm supposed to be searching for.

This is why I do not understand all the insistance that I need to learn how to program on my own, etc. and why a simple answer cannot be provided as to which lines of a makefile need to be modified/added so I can properly compile the source.

Mind you, I have already gotten WinCVS installed and the code downloaded. I have MinGW, WinSys and GCC setup and configured to correctly compile. I have gotten the patching process to the step that I only need to update the makefile for it to properly compile.. I have done so without the need to understand how to program, etc. I am just missing *one* step of the process to get it to work.. and this is where all this hassle is coming from because people who I *know* can answer the question, refuse to.

Yes, I'm looking for specific steps. So what? Someone asking me how to do something in Photoshop because they're not a serious graphic artist and are unfamiliar with the software or techniques is doing no different. That doesn't make them *lazy*. Someone unfamiliar with PS is going to look at that interface for the first time and be lost. I was. Most everyone is. That doesn't stop me from doing what I can to get them through to the results they want. I don't feel I'm "cheating" them, or "giving them a fish". I'm not lecturing them on the intricacies of Photoshop and being a digital artist and that they have to do the proper research in order to be able to create a beveled button.. I'd be full of it - and they'd likely know it.

So.. be that as it may, it's obvious that people here are more interested in "teaching lessons" than in just answering a question or two.. so, I'll just get off the subject and see what I can find out.

Believe me, I won't make the mistake of asking for help regarding compiling Torque or adding features again. You've made your case loud and clear.

#13 Dude, everything you need to know about patches is in the Documentation section of TGE
I'll even show you the way :
www.garagegames.com/docs/torque.sdk/gstarted/patches.html

Edit : took out possible offensive remark even though I had already trimmed it to one sentence :)

#14 Laziness. Yeah. Whatever you say.

I've figured out everything else up to this point, largely on my own.. But asking for help on *one* thing, even after trying myself for hours to figure it out makes me lazy, because you refuse to provide a simple answer and would rather get on a soap-box and preach.

Ooooookay...

By the way... I've already checked that GG page - several times. It doesn't address what I'm trying to figure out. But I guess that makes me lazy, too, right?

#15 Oh, so now it's not how to patch that you want to know ?
If it's about adding stuff to makefiles, open one with any text editor (you did look at the links that came up in the Google search, right ?), as you surely know by now it's a text file.
I think it'll be pretty obvious what you have to do to add more files to it.

There is no escaping it : you're going to have to get your hands dirty and do some of the research yourself

#16 Nicolas:

That's all I was asking for from the very beginning. I needed a Non Visual C++ IDE because I figured the IDE would know what to do with adding those files alot better than I would and would have a far lesser chance of screwing things up in the process. Well, that didn't pan out either.

As I said, I'm new at this and I'm aware of how new I am at it - e.g. I'm not going to charge in head-first and expect things to work out the first, or second, or third time, etc. Despite that, I've spent *ample* time trying to figure this out on my own in every way I could so I wouldn't *have* to come here and ask. I screwed up my install of the CVS at one point and had to blow out the directory and re-download everything again. Believe it or not, I like to figure things out on my own - but you reach a point after a while where you realize that you're going to need some outside help.

Only *after* all that did I come here to try and see if someone could offer some additional insight. The answer I got was "use Google", which was, to say the least, a bit discouraging. I had already tried Google, and Yahoo and a few others - to no avail. I had searched the forums, and the documentation. I wasn't finding anything that looked like what I needed. A big part of the problem is that I don't know what I should be looking for to begin with, nevermind know where to find it.

The answers I've gotten here come across as people simply wanting to give as little help as possible. And yes, it's come across as preachy when I'm asking for information that would be, I imagine, not too difficult to provide, and am instead told of how I need to learn how to program, etc. etc. when I know what I want to do is not going to be that involved.

Yes.. I know what a makefile is and what its function is. I'm aware that you can edit it in a text editor. However, my hang-up is and has been all along that I don't know what to add/change or what the correct format or placement of it is within the file itself.

Hopefully the link provided in this page will bear fruit.. if not, then I guess I'm right where I was to begin with.

Thanks.

#17 Update:
I checked out the links from that Google results page and, as I feared, they're the same ones I found in my searches. They all assume far more understanding of the process, syntax, etc. than I possess. Which brings me back to why I started this thread asking about a non-VC++ IDE that I might do it through in the first place...

Sooo.. seems I've come full circle right back to the original issue.

I do apologize for lashing out at you all. There were clearly assumptions made on both sides of the fence, I felt like I was being blown off, you felt like I was just looking for a hand-out and, honestly, both sides were off-base... annnd it got way out of proportion. So.. I'm sorry.

Thanks for the advice...

#18 First, for searching the forums, single words, or two, are what you must use to get significant results, because there ie NO full text search on the GG forums, and for basic gcc (Mingw uses gcc) and makefile stuff, as Jarrod said, it ain't the best place to start.
Entering "getting started with makefiles" in Google gives the following as the first link (actually not really, but close enough) : cips02.physik.uni-bonn.de/pool/infos/make/

If you haven't already compiled TGE from the command line, you might want to have a look at this (as well as the other links given to you in anothread about MinGW, EClipse, etc.) : it's the section on building TGE on Linux, as I don't remember where the mingw stuff is
www.garagegames.com/docs/torque.sdk/gstarted/compilers.unix.html#Compiler
Except that you have to do make configure with the right options for windows, and gcc 2 or 3 depending on what version of mingw you're using.

This free ide for mingw I have heard very good things about, but haven't worked with it :
www.parinya.ca/
No guarantees for any of the followings, obviously, and I haven't used them, so caveat user, but hopefully, none of them exhibit the too big a project syndrom of DevC++ :)
Bunch of free C++ IDE links that use mingw/gcc :
www.computersciencelab.com/CppIde.htm
www.objectcentral.com/
visual-mingw.sourceforge.net/

And the last link is a compilation of links to various windows C++ IDE
www.freeprogrammingresources.com/cppide.html

HTH

#19 Briefly. The file you want to edit is targets.torque.mk You will find it in the root of the engine subdirectory. Look at it with a regular editor like notepad. The Day/Night code would be added at the group called SOURCE.GAME.FX You will find it about halfway down the file. Insert a line adding the daylight.cc file into the list. You should be able to figure it out from the other neaby entries.

Then run a standard make on the program.

That should do it.

ps. just for safety make a backup of the file before you start...

#20 Nicolas and David:

Thank you for the links and info!

Heh.. I got a friend of mine with mucho programming experience under his belt to check it out.. Actually.. he offered. So.. he came over and started digging through the make files and such. He figured out what you recommended, David - the targets.torque.mk - though he did it a little bit differently.

Instead of adding it to the Source.Game.FX, he created a separate entry for it and then added references to the ARPG/environment (or whatever that folder is) in the appropriate other sections. And.. that did the trick, it's now compiled and working.

So thanks again for the feedback and the help! Seems everything worked out (wipes sweat from forehead)...

Take care,
Mike