Goodbye and Good Riddance to QuARK... any other suggestions?
by Mitovo · in Torque Game Engine · 03/28/2004 (7:17 am) · 87 replies
Okay, after running into problem after problem after problem with it I'm dropping QuARK completely.
Now suddenly I can't put the 3D view into textured mode or this "blue" bar shows up and the view freezes. If I put it into solid or wireframe, it's fine. This is completely out of the blue.
Anyway, I'm done with it.
I'm sick of dealing with this rolling train-wreck of a program and am open to suggestions of other, proven, programs to use in its place...
Here are some options I've looked into and am considering, to different degrees, as possible replacements:
Cartography Shop: I've checked this out, and it's a pretty smooth program. I'm not sure of the functionality, though, because from what I got to see it seems a bit limited in what you can do with it. Though that could just be me not looking into it that deeply. It is functional, has some nice-looking lightmapping, and is pretty straight-forward for creating and texturing geometry. Of course the pertinent questions:
- Is there a converter that will properly get its file format (or a .map format if it does that) into .dif?
- Is there documentation of how one goes about naming key entities (portals, lights, etc) in the editor to have them correctly carried over into .dif?
Tread3D: This looks like a nice editor and seems to be quite feature-rich. I've been looking at its various features and the only question I'm left with is how the set-up works. Like, I know in Hammer, you need to have a game setup before you can effectively edit anything. I don't know if it's the same with Tread3D, or if anyone has worked with it and knows how to set it up for Torque... Anyway, it's another option I'm looking into.
Hammer: I would have looked at this, but it's been mentioned that certain restrictions are in place that would make it illegal to use it in any sort of a commercial project.. So I guess that's right out.
3D Editor/3DS-to-.map converter: I've seen converters out there for 3DS-to-map. I don't know how well they work. I remember playing with one back in the Quake2 days and it worked pretty well, carrying over omni lights, and the like where a Quake editor would load them with all intact. I don't know how feasible a solution that is.. but.. I thought of it, so it's in the options list..
Any feedback/suggestions?
Thanks!
Mike
Now suddenly I can't put the 3D view into textured mode or this "blue" bar shows up and the view freezes. If I put it into solid or wireframe, it's fine. This is completely out of the blue.
Anyway, I'm done with it.
I'm sick of dealing with this rolling train-wreck of a program and am open to suggestions of other, proven, programs to use in its place...
Here are some options I've looked into and am considering, to different degrees, as possible replacements:
Cartography Shop: I've checked this out, and it's a pretty smooth program. I'm not sure of the functionality, though, because from what I got to see it seems a bit limited in what you can do with it. Though that could just be me not looking into it that deeply. It is functional, has some nice-looking lightmapping, and is pretty straight-forward for creating and texturing geometry. Of course the pertinent questions:
- Is there a converter that will properly get its file format (or a .map format if it does that) into .dif?
- Is there documentation of how one goes about naming key entities (portals, lights, etc) in the editor to have them correctly carried over into .dif?
Tread3D: This looks like a nice editor and seems to be quite feature-rich. I've been looking at its various features and the only question I'm left with is how the set-up works. Like, I know in Hammer, you need to have a game setup before you can effectively edit anything. I don't know if it's the same with Tread3D, or if anyone has worked with it and knows how to set it up for Torque... Anyway, it's another option I'm looking into.
Hammer: I would have looked at this, but it's been mentioned that certain restrictions are in place that would make it illegal to use it in any sort of a commercial project.. So I guess that's right out.
3D Editor/3DS-to-.map converter: I've seen converters out there for 3DS-to-map. I don't know how well they work. I remember playing with one back in the Quake2 days and it worked pretty well, carrying over omni lights, and the like where a Quake editor would load them with all intact. I don't know how feasible a solution that is.. but.. I thought of it, so it's in the options list..
Any feedback/suggestions?
Thanks!
Mike
About the author
#62
I will say that I really like Conitec's 3D GameStudio BSP editor.. editing a brush is alot like you explained your texture manipulation... It has different edit modes.. vertex, edge and face.. select the appropriate mode and the object gets control points on the corresponding part, then you just click n' drag.
I think alot of level editor programmers forget who they're desining these programs for - artists and designers! You want fast, intuitive and empowering utilities at your disposal that allow you to get your work cranked out, not a system where the simplest of functions is 5 a step process.
Well, again, if you ever decide to pick it up again, and are interested, please let me know.. I'd be glad to help with testing and/or feedback, etc.. I have a fascination with 3D engines and editors, so it'd be a great thing to help with...
Thanks!
Mike
07/30/2004 (10:59 am)
Heh.. I hear ya on that. I will say that I really like Conitec's 3D GameStudio BSP editor.. editing a brush is alot like you explained your texture manipulation... It has different edit modes.. vertex, edge and face.. select the appropriate mode and the object gets control points on the corresponding part, then you just click n' drag.
I think alot of level editor programmers forget who they're desining these programs for - artists and designers! You want fast, intuitive and empowering utilities at your disposal that allow you to get your work cranked out, not a system where the simplest of functions is 5 a step process.
Well, again, if you ever decide to pick it up again, and are interested, please let me know.. I'd be glad to help with testing and/or feedback, etc.. I have a fascination with 3D engines and editors, so it'd be a great thing to help with...
Thanks!
Mike
#63
I tried to find a download of BSP somewhere. The only one I could find was 0.666 beta but I did see on some sites that there was a 0.85 beta. The 0.666 beta didn't work (I suspect it is 16-bit version and I am missing the necessary libraries. If you can get me a working copy, I will look into doing a map2dif that supports it. I already have a Quake1 .map parser so I think it'll be fairly straight-forward.
07/30/2004 (11:44 am)
Rodney,I tried to find a download of BSP somewhere. The only one I could find was 0.666 beta but I did see on some sites that there was a 0.85 beta. The 0.666 beta didn't work (I suspect it is 16-bit version and I am missing the necessary libraries. If you can get me a working copy, I will look into doing a map2dif that supports it. I already have a Quake1 .map parser so I think it'll be fairly straight-forward.
#64
07/30/2004 (11:52 am)
The latest released version was .96 or .97 I think. When I closed down the tutorial website, I burned all those files to CD, so I probably have it somewhere. I'll try to look for it this weekend. 
#65
Yahn was gracious enough to include me in the BSP credits for helping out with things over the years and I have the re-write code for BSP as well.
I have version .93b on my current Hard Drive right now, for when I am messing around with Quake2Max. So if anyone wants that version, i'll post it up somewhere for download.
Kind Regards,
Trent
07/30/2004 (5:16 pm)
I agree Rodney, the clipping plane is a very useful tool. The application also has "wizards" to build Arches, Staircases, and even spiral staircases. Yahn was gracious enough to include me in the BSP credits for helping out with things over the years and I have the re-write code for BSP as well.
I have version .93b on my current Hard Drive right now, for when I am messing around with Quake2Max. So if anyone wants that version, i'll post it up somewhere for download.
Kind Regards,
Trent
#66
If I remember right, the version of Half-Life map that BSP outputs is a bit different from what map2dif needs.
07/30/2004 (5:42 pm)
Still looking for my copy... Trenton, have you tried doing a Torque map with BSP?If I remember right, the version of Half-Life map that BSP outputs is a bit different from what map2dif needs.
#67
Trent,
If you can post any version then I can get started looking at it. Let me know if you need ftp access or just email it to me (< 10 Mb).
I would love to add another tool to the TGE tool chain if it can be done quckly =)
07/30/2004 (6:01 pm)
What does the license look like for BSP? Is it legal for us to use with TGE? Are you still in contact with Yahn or able to contact him? Think he would be interested in sharing the source (either in general or to a select group of people)?Trent,
If you can post any version then I can get started looking at it. Let me know if you need ftp access or just email it to me (< 10 Mb).
I would love to add another tool to the TGE tool chain if it can be done quckly =)
#68
The only source code he has is the source code he sent me, which is as I described above; halfway through a cleanup/optimization and broken. Back in '98 when he first sent me the source, I scrounged up a copy of Borland 5 from Ebay and spent a lot of time working on trying to make it work, in an effort to keep the editor alive. Along with a few other guys from the Quake/BSP user arena we did manage to get it to compile, but it would crash upon running.
I found my CD finally. Version .93b was the latest released version. The source I have is from version .94. I installed it and fired it up last night. It only works with texture wads in Half-Life mode, but there is a mode that read texture files directly, for Ritual's SiN if I remember right.
I made a quick cube in it and saved the .map file. Here's what it looked like:
By comparison, here's a cube saved by Quark:
All together, the install files run ~3 megs. Matthew, have you used BSP before? I can send you the file along with instructions on how to run it, but I don't know how detailed to make the instructions :)
*edited* to make a BSP brush that I hadn't messed with texture manipulation on :)
07/31/2004 (2:06 am)
BSP was always shareware (more like donation-ware actually). I haven't had contact with Yahn for years, I don't know if he's still with Valve or not. The internal guts of BSP originally came from QE3, the Quake Editor source code released by ID Software when Quake was first released. Yahn put his own UI on it and enhanced it greatly, but I'm assuming whatever license ID released it under is still attached. Yahn was a patent attorney before he was a game programmer, so I'm guessing the shareware license was ok to release it under at the time :)The only source code he has is the source code he sent me, which is as I described above; halfway through a cleanup/optimization and broken. Back in '98 when he first sent me the source, I scrounged up a copy of Borland 5 from Ebay and spent a lot of time working on trying to make it work, in an effort to keep the editor alive. Along with a few other guys from the Quake/BSP user arena we did manage to get it to compile, but it would crash upon running.
I found my CD finally. Version .93b was the latest released version. The source I have is from version .94. I installed it and fired it up last night. It only works with texture wads in Half-Life mode, but there is a mode that read texture files directly, for Ritual's SiN if I remember right.
I made a quick cube in it and saved the .map file. Here's what it looked like:
( -64 64 120 ) ( -64 -64 120 ) ( -64 -64 -8 ) BIOTECH_1E 0 0 0 1.000000 1.000000 ( 80 64 128 ) ( 0 64 128 ) ( 0 64 0 ) BIOTECH_1E 0 0 0 1.000000 1.000000 ( 64 -64 128 ) ( 64 64 128 ) ( 64 64 0 ) BIOTECH_1E 0 0 0 1.000000 1.000000 ( 0 -64 128 ) ( 80 -64 128 ) ( 80 -64 0 ) BIOTECH_1E 0 0 0 1.000000 1.000000 ( 0 -64 128 ) ( 0 64 128 ) ( 80 64 128 ) BIOTECH_1E 0 0 0 1.000000 1.000000 ( 80 64 0 ) ( 0 64 0 ) ( 0 -64 0 ) BIOTECH_1E 0 0 0 1.000000 1.000000
By comparison, here's a cube saved by Quark:
( -320 320 -128 ) ( -320 192 -128 ) ( -192 320 -128 ) flat-FLAT504 [ 1.00000 0.00000 0.00000 320.00000 ] [ 0.00000 1.00000 0.00000 -320.00000 ] 0 1.00000 1.00000 ( -320 320 0 ) ( -320 448 0 ) ( -192 320 0 ) flat-FLAT504 [ 1.00000 0.00000 0.00000 320.00000 ] [ 0.00000 -1.00000 0.00000 320.00000 ] 0 1.00000 1.00000 ( -320 -384 -64 ) ( -320 -384 64 ) ( -192 -384 -64 ) flat-FLAT504 [ 1.00000 0.00000 0.00000 320.00000 ] [ 0.00000 0.00000 -1.00000 -64.00000 ] 0 1.00000 1.00000 ( -320 384 -64 ) ( -320 384 64 ) ( -448 384 -64 ) flat-FLAT504 [ -1.00000 0.00000 0.00000 -320.00000 ] [ 0.00000 0.00000 -1.00000 -64.00000 ] 0 1.00000 1.00000 ( -384 320 -64 ) ( -384 320 64 ) ( -384 192 -64 ) flat-FLAT504 [ 0.00000 -1.00000 0.00000 320.00000 ] [ 0.00000 0.00000 -1.00000 -64.00000 ] 0 1.00000 1.00000 ( 384 320 -64 ) ( 384 320 64 ) ( 384 448 -64 ) flat-FLAT504 [ 0.00000 1.00000 0.00000 -320.00000 ] [ 0.00000 0.00000 -1.00000 -64.00000 ] 0 1.00000 1.00000
All together, the install files run ~3 megs. Matthew, have you used BSP before? I can send you the file along with instructions on how to run it, but I don't know how detailed to make the instructions :)
*edited* to make a BSP brush that I hadn't messed with texture manipulation on :)
#69
1 - a converter to change the Half-Life map format to the same format as Tribes2 (see above for the differences). There are probably converters out there somewhere maybe? Or would it be easier to make a map2dif that went straight from BSP's format to Torque's?
2 - a converter to compile texture files (from either .jpg or .png probably) into a half-life .wad file so BSP can read them in. There are probably converters out there to do this as well.
3 - an entity file in Quake/Half-Life *.qc format. This is just a text file, so it'd be easy to make one that would work with Torque. Should be the easiest of the 3 to do.
07/31/2004 (5:52 am)
Ok, I've been messing with this for a while now. I think it is doable to make Torque maps in BSP, but we'll need the following things:1 - a converter to change the Half-Life map format to the same format as Tribes2 (see above for the differences). There are probably converters out there somewhere maybe? Or would it be easier to make a map2dif that went straight from BSP's format to Torque's?
2 - a converter to compile texture files (from either .jpg or .png probably) into a half-life .wad file so BSP can read them in. There are probably converters out there to do this as well.
3 - an entity file in Quake/Half-Life *.qc format. This is just a text file, so it'd be easy to make one that would work with Torque. Should be the easiest of the 3 to do.
#70
07/31/2004 (11:23 am)
Some of these tools already exist or would be easy to write. The only significant piece of work is #1, since I think #2 is already written and #3 is just notepad work. :)
#71
Would it be possible to provide BSP the ability to save directly to the appropriate format and forego the converter, etc? It'd be great to have it set up that way where the program does it automatically, without need of setting up paths to the correct tools, setting up an export path.. copying the files from one folder to another, etc. etc..
Also, (and believe me, I know this takes considerable programming work.. just throwing thoughts out there), not having to use .wad files would be great. Juse load the textures directly from the folder the .difs will be saved to and go...
At this point, with the tools available and being used, Torque still feels, to me, a little bit more like a very robust "mod program" than a full blown, stand-alone development package, because it doesn't have its own dedicated toolset. You have to configure other programs to work with it, all kinds of extra footwork, etc. Again... this is just my own opinion and as long as the program is good and makes my life easier with creating stuff, I'm fine with using it. But it would be great to have an editor that just "knows" what to do with .difs, where to put things, without having to "tell it what to do" before you can effectively use it.
Also, that whole thing about CS where it'll let you use BSP and static meshes in the same program and then export them in one step is something that would be a god-send for Torque... 'specially for those using the Synapse lighting pack or TSE... that much less work once you've imported the interior, etc... just set up the lighting and you're good to go.
But again.. that is all programming-centric stuff.. I understand that and don't have any expectations per se.. but it would be sweet :-)
Thanks..
Mike
07/31/2004 (1:53 pm)
Heya...Would it be possible to provide BSP the ability to save directly to the appropriate format and forego the converter, etc? It'd be great to have it set up that way where the program does it automatically, without need of setting up paths to the correct tools, setting up an export path.. copying the files from one folder to another, etc. etc..
Also, (and believe me, I know this takes considerable programming work.. just throwing thoughts out there), not having to use .wad files would be great. Juse load the textures directly from the folder the .difs will be saved to and go...
At this point, with the tools available and being used, Torque still feels, to me, a little bit more like a very robust "mod program" than a full blown, stand-alone development package, because it doesn't have its own dedicated toolset. You have to configure other programs to work with it, all kinds of extra footwork, etc. Again... this is just my own opinion and as long as the program is good and makes my life easier with creating stuff, I'm fine with using it. But it would be great to have an editor that just "knows" what to do with .difs, where to put things, without having to "tell it what to do" before you can effectively use it.
Also, that whole thing about CS where it'll let you use BSP and static meshes in the same program and then export them in one step is something that would be a god-send for Torque... 'specially for those using the Synapse lighting pack or TSE... that much less work once you've imported the interior, etc... just set up the lighting and you're good to go.
But again.. that is all programming-centric stuff.. I understand that and don't have any expectations per se.. but it would be sweet :-)
Thanks..
Mike
#72
Would it be possible to provide BSP the ability to save directly to the appropriate format and forego the converter, etc? It'd be great to have it set up that way where the program does it automatically, without need of setting up paths to the correct tools, setting up an export path.. copying the files from one folder to another, etc. etc..
Also, (and believe me, I know this takes considerable programming work.. just throwing thoughts out there), not having to use .wad files would be great. Juse load the textures directly from the folder the .difs will be saved to and go...
At this point, with the tools available and being used, Torque still feels, to me, a little bit more like a very robust "mod program" than a full blown, stand-alone development package, because it doesn't have its own dedicated toolset. You have to configure other programs to work with it, all kinds of extra footwork, etc. Again... this is just my own opinion and as long as the program is good and makes my life easier with creating stuff, I'm fine with using it. But it would be great to have an editor that just "knows" what to do with .difs, where to put things, without having to "tell it what to do" before you can effectively use it.
Also, that whole thing about CS where it'll let you use BSP and static meshes in the same program and then export them in one step is something that would be a god-send for Torque... 'specially for those using the Synapse lighting pack or TSE... that much less work once you've imported the interior, etc... just set up the lighting and you're good to go.
But again.. that is all programming-centric stuff.. I understand that and don't have any expectations per se.. but it would be sweet :-)
Thanks..
Mike
07/31/2004 (2:02 pm)
Heya...Would it be possible to provide BSP the ability to save directly to the appropriate format and forego the converter, etc? It'd be great to have it set up that way where the program does it automatically, without need of setting up paths to the correct tools, setting up an export path.. copying the files from one folder to another, etc. etc..
Also, (and believe me, I know this takes considerable programming work.. just throwing thoughts out there), not having to use .wad files would be great. Juse load the textures directly from the folder the .difs will be saved to and go...
At this point, with the tools available and being used, Torque still feels, to me, a little bit more like a very robust "mod program" than a full blown, stand-alone development package, because it doesn't have its own dedicated toolset. You have to configure other programs to work with it, all kinds of extra footwork, etc. Again... this is just my own opinion and as long as the program is good and makes my life easier with creating stuff, I'm fine with using it. But it would be great to have an editor that just "knows" what to do with .difs, where to put things, without having to "tell it what to do" before you can effectively use it.
Also, that whole thing about CS where it'll let you use BSP and static meshes in the same program and then export them in one step is something that would be a god-send for Torque... 'specially for those using the Synapse lighting pack or TSE... that much less work once you've imported the interior, etc... just set up the lighting and you're good to go.
But again.. that is all programming-centric stuff.. I understand that and don't have any expectations per se.. but it would be sweet :-)
Thanks..
Mike
#73
Would it be possible to provide BSP the ability to save directly to the appropriate format and forego the converter, etc? It'd be great to have it set up that way where the program does it automatically, without need of setting up paths to the correct tools, setting up an export path.. copying the files from one folder to another, etc. etc..
Also, (and believe me, I know this takes considerable programming work.. just throwing thoughts out there), not having to use .wad files would be great. Juse load the textures directly from the folder the .difs will be saved to and go...
At this point, with the tools available and being used, Torque still feels, to me, a little bit more like a very robust "mod program" than a full blown, stand-alone development package, because it doesn't have its own dedicated toolset. You have to configure other programs to work with it, all kinds of extra footwork, etc. Again... this is just my own opinion and as long as the program is good and makes my life easier with creating stuff, I'm fine with using it. But it would be great to have an editor that just "knows" what to do with .difs, where to put things, without having to "tell it what to do" before you can effectively use it.
Also, that whole thing about CS where it'll let you use BSP and static meshes in the same program and then export them in one step is something that would be a god-send for Torque... 'specially for those using the Synapse lighting pack or TSE... that much less work once you've imported the interior, etc... just set up the lighting and you're good to go.
But again.. that is all programming-centric stuff.. I understand that and don't have any expectations per se.. but it would be sweet :-)
Thanks..
Mike
07/31/2004 (2:10 pm)
Heya...Would it be possible to provide BSP the ability to save directly to the appropriate format and forego the converter, etc? It'd be great to have it set up that way where the program does it automatically, without need of setting up paths to the correct tools, setting up an export path.. copying the files from one folder to another, etc. etc..
Also, (and believe me, I know this takes considerable programming work.. just throwing thoughts out there), not having to use .wad files would be great. Juse load the textures directly from the folder the .difs will be saved to and go...
At this point, with the tools available and being used, Torque still feels, to me, a little bit more like a very robust "mod program" than a full blown, stand-alone development package, because it doesn't have its own dedicated toolset. You have to configure other programs to work with it, all kinds of extra footwork, etc. Again... this is just my own opinion and as long as the program is good and makes my life easier with creating stuff, I'm fine with using it. But it would be great to have an editor that just "knows" what to do with .difs, where to put things, without having to "tell it what to do" before you can effectively use it.
Also, that whole thing about CS where it'll let you use BSP and static meshes in the same program and then export them in one step is something that would be a god-send for Torque... 'specially for those using the Synapse lighting pack or TSE... that much less work once you've imported the interior, etc... just set up the lighting and you're good to go.
But again.. that is all programming-centric stuff.. I understand that and don't have any expectations per se.. but it would be sweet :-)
Thanks..
Mike
#74
Would it be possible to provide BSP the ability to save directly to the appropriate format and forego the converter, etc? It'd be great to have it set up that way where the program does it automatically, without need of setting up paths to the correct tools, setting up an export path.. copying the files from one folder to another, etc. etc..
Also, (and believe me, I know this takes considerable programming work.. just throwing thoughts out there), not having to use .wad files would be great. Juse load the textures directly from the folder the .difs will be saved to and go...
At this point, with the tools available and being used, Torque still feels, to me, a little bit more like a very robust "mod program" than a full blown, stand-alone development package, because it doesn't have its own dedicated toolset. You have to configure other programs to work with it, all kinds of extra footwork, etc. Again... this is just my own opinion and as long as the program is good and makes my life easier with creating stuff, I'm fine with using it. But it would be great to have an editor that just "knows" what to do with .difs, where to put things, without having to "tell it what to do" before you can effectively use it.
Also, that whole thing about CS where it'll let you use BSP and static meshes in the same program and then export them in one step is something that would be a god-send for Torque... 'specially for those using the Synapse lighting pack or TSE... that much less work once you've imported the interior, etc... just set up the lighting and you're good to go.
But again.. that is all programming-centric stuff.. I understand that and don't have any expectations per se.. but it would be sweet :-)
Thanks..
Mike
07/31/2004 (3:00 pm)
Heya...Would it be possible to provide BSP the ability to save directly to the appropriate format and forego the converter, etc? It'd be great to have it set up that way where the program does it automatically, without need of setting up paths to the correct tools, setting up an export path.. copying the files from one folder to another, etc. etc..
Also, (and believe me, I know this takes considerable programming work.. just throwing thoughts out there), not having to use .wad files would be great. Juse load the textures directly from the folder the .difs will be saved to and go...
At this point, with the tools available and being used, Torque still feels, to me, a little bit more like a very robust "mod program" than a full blown, stand-alone development package, because it doesn't have its own dedicated toolset. You have to configure other programs to work with it, all kinds of extra footwork, etc. Again... this is just my own opinion and as long as the program is good and makes my life easier with creating stuff, I'm fine with using it. But it would be great to have an editor that just "knows" what to do with .difs, where to put things, without having to "tell it what to do" before you can effectively use it.
Also, that whole thing about CS where it'll let you use BSP and static meshes in the same program and then export them in one step is something that would be a god-send for Torque... 'specially for those using the Synapse lighting pack or TSE... that much less work once you've imported the interior, etc... just set up the lighting and you're good to go.
But again.. that is all programming-centric stuff.. I understand that and don't have any expectations per se.. but it would be sweet :-)
Thanks..
Mike
#75
07/31/2004 (3:01 pm)
BSP could be modified to save correctly, it could probably even export the .dif file, but the problem is the source I have is broken as described above. In a couple of weeks work will slow down for me and I will start poring through it to see if I can get it going, or if not, I'll start the process to convert it to MSVC where I'm more comfortable working :)
#76
Cool! Sounds good :-) Good luck with it.. Looking forward to seeing how it progresses!
07/31/2004 (4:02 pm)
Ahh.. okay.. Sorry I missed that bitCool! Sounds good :-) Good luck with it.. Looking forward to seeing how it progresses!
#78
Let me know how it goes, cause I also get the 3d view screw up and it's very frustrating :(
ps, please CHECK what I say, don't take it as fact.
I have just started using QuARK, so my 2 cents wouldn't be worth that, yet - need to find some tutorials and give it a fair shot
@Trenton - thanks for that fix!! I'll try that
01/14/2005 (9:54 am)
My level-editor pals tell me that while Valve/Hammer has licensing, the version before the guy left WorldCraft 1.6a is still free, unlicensed and available for download. You could try that.Let me know how it goes, cause I also get the 3d view screw up and it's very frustrating :(
ps, please CHECK what I say, don't take it as fact.
I have just started using QuARK, so my 2 cents wouldn't be worth that, yet - need to find some tutorials and give it a fair shot
@Trenton - thanks for that fix!! I'll try that
#79
I believe it's valve's position that those versions are /not/ free, lack of license nonwithstanding. I don't know if they have a legal leg to stand on, but I do know I'd rather not find that out!
01/14/2005 (10:27 am)
There are versions of WorldCraft around that didn't have a click through EULA - I don't remember if it was 1.6a specifically, but it sounds about right.I believe it's valve's position that those versions are /not/ free, lack of license nonwithstanding. I don't know if they have a legal leg to stand on, but I do know I'd rather not find that out!
#80
01/14/2005 (10:39 am)
It depends on the terms of purchase. If Valve purchased the rights to all previous versions as well as any new versions, then they have a legal leg to stand on. Just like when a company purchases a product and have to support previous versions until they can be phased out. 
Torque 3D Owner Rodney (OldRod) Burns
It had a powerful 3D clipping plane before any other editor had it. Not even sure Quark has one now. I know you can clip off parts of a brush in the 2D views, but haven't figured out how to do a 3D clip yet - if you even can in Quark.
Texture manipulation was a snap - simply drag on the face directly in the 3d view and move the texture around. Ctrl-click-drag to scale the texture. Shift-click-drag to rotate the texture.
The only downsides were that setup was a mess, which is why I originally started writing tuts for it. Most of the stuff had to be configured by hand in INI files, etc. Eventually that got better, but still wasn't up to what most users expected.
A lot of people seemed to prefer WorldCraft's interface over BSP for some reason, but I never cared for WC. In BSP almost everything from a menu could be done with a keystroke. The window layout was fully customizable, etc. It was just an all-around great program. I was happy for Yahn when he got hired at Valve, but I wish it would have been a couple months later so he'd had time to finish his re-write first :)
*edit* oops, hit post too quick :)
I would love to see an editor for Torque that worked with .dif files directly. And like you said, if you combined in the ability to use .dts files as well, you'd have a game-making machine. To be honest, every time I've tried to put serious effort into making maps for Torque, Quark and/or Hammer has frustrated me so much I gave up and went back to scripting/coding again. :(