Goodbye and Good Riddance to QuARK... any other suggestions?
by Mitovo · in Torque Game Engine · 03/28/2004 (7:17 am) · 87 replies
Okay, after running into problem after problem after problem with it I'm dropping QuARK completely.
Now suddenly I can't put the 3D view into textured mode or this "blue" bar shows up and the view freezes. If I put it into solid or wireframe, it's fine. This is completely out of the blue.
Anyway, I'm done with it.
I'm sick of dealing with this rolling train-wreck of a program and am open to suggestions of other, proven, programs to use in its place...
Here are some options I've looked into and am considering, to different degrees, as possible replacements:
Cartography Shop: I've checked this out, and it's a pretty smooth program. I'm not sure of the functionality, though, because from what I got to see it seems a bit limited in what you can do with it. Though that could just be me not looking into it that deeply. It is functional, has some nice-looking lightmapping, and is pretty straight-forward for creating and texturing geometry. Of course the pertinent questions:
- Is there a converter that will properly get its file format (or a .map format if it does that) into .dif?
- Is there documentation of how one goes about naming key entities (portals, lights, etc) in the editor to have them correctly carried over into .dif?
Tread3D: This looks like a nice editor and seems to be quite feature-rich. I've been looking at its various features and the only question I'm left with is how the set-up works. Like, I know in Hammer, you need to have a game setup before you can effectively edit anything. I don't know if it's the same with Tread3D, or if anyone has worked with it and knows how to set it up for Torque... Anyway, it's another option I'm looking into.
Hammer: I would have looked at this, but it's been mentioned that certain restrictions are in place that would make it illegal to use it in any sort of a commercial project.. So I guess that's right out.
3D Editor/3DS-to-.map converter: I've seen converters out there for 3DS-to-map. I don't know how well they work. I remember playing with one back in the Quake2 days and it worked pretty well, carrying over omni lights, and the like where a Quake editor would load them with all intact. I don't know how feasible a solution that is.. but.. I thought of it, so it's in the options list..
Any feedback/suggestions?
Thanks!
Mike
Now suddenly I can't put the 3D view into textured mode or this "blue" bar shows up and the view freezes. If I put it into solid or wireframe, it's fine. This is completely out of the blue.
Anyway, I'm done with it.
I'm sick of dealing with this rolling train-wreck of a program and am open to suggestions of other, proven, programs to use in its place...
Here are some options I've looked into and am considering, to different degrees, as possible replacements:
Cartography Shop: I've checked this out, and it's a pretty smooth program. I'm not sure of the functionality, though, because from what I got to see it seems a bit limited in what you can do with it. Though that could just be me not looking into it that deeply. It is functional, has some nice-looking lightmapping, and is pretty straight-forward for creating and texturing geometry. Of course the pertinent questions:
- Is there a converter that will properly get its file format (or a .map format if it does that) into .dif?
- Is there documentation of how one goes about naming key entities (portals, lights, etc) in the editor to have them correctly carried over into .dif?
Tread3D: This looks like a nice editor and seems to be quite feature-rich. I've been looking at its various features and the only question I'm left with is how the set-up works. Like, I know in Hammer, you need to have a game setup before you can effectively edit anything. I don't know if it's the same with Tread3D, or if anyone has worked with it and knows how to set it up for Torque... Anyway, it's another option I'm looking into.
Hammer: I would have looked at this, but it's been mentioned that certain restrictions are in place that would make it illegal to use it in any sort of a commercial project.. So I guess that's right out.
3D Editor/3DS-to-.map converter: I've seen converters out there for 3DS-to-map. I don't know how well they work. I remember playing with one back in the Quake2 days and it worked pretty well, carrying over omni lights, and the like where a Quake editor would load them with all intact. I don't know how feasible a solution that is.. but.. I thought of it, so it's in the options list..
Any feedback/suggestions?
Thanks!
Mike
About the author
#43
read the thread above. There is no direct exporter, but there is an existing converter, and an upcoming one for 4.1.
Michael, after some time,what is your feeling about CS? Still a thumb up? Did you do the whole pipeline with importing into torque?
Regards,
Dirk
04/20/2004 (11:00 am)
Rasmus,read the thread above. There is no direct exporter, but there is an existing converter, and an upcoming one for 4.1.
Michael, after some time,what is your feeling about CS? Still a thumb up? Did you do the whole pipeline with importing into torque?
Regards,
Dirk
#44
04/20/2004 (11:06 am)
In regards to using Hammer, Quote:But you might still want to get a personal email from valve confirming it for your project.an email from who knows who is not] legally binding.
#45
I still think CS is a nifty program, but it needs some lovin' from its author before I'd implement it full-time into any pipeline. All in all, it's great for simple objects. Anything that requires more advanced detail or functionality, you're best to stick with QuARK (wow, did I just say that? :p). Quirky as its interface and workflow are, it does have some very valuable and powerful tools that provide functionality you simply couldn't get in CS.
As for Hammer... I'm not even looking at that anymore. I'm trying to nail down a solid and "permanent" toolset, both for interior design and dts design. It seems like QuARK is gonna be the way for the interiors.
I've currently got about 4 different 3D programs installed on my system. I'm plaing with each one, trying to find a good toolset/workflow for dts objects.
Good luck!
04/20/2004 (12:00 pm)
@ Dirk,I still think CS is a nifty program, but it needs some lovin' from its author before I'd implement it full-time into any pipeline. All in all, it's great for simple objects. Anything that requires more advanced detail or functionality, you're best to stick with QuARK (wow, did I just say that? :p). Quirky as its interface and workflow are, it does have some very valuable and powerful tools that provide functionality you simply couldn't get in CS.
As for Hammer... I'm not even looking at that anymore. I'm trying to nail down a solid and "permanent" toolset, both for interior design and dts design. It seems like QuARK is gonna be the way for the interiors.
I've currently got about 4 different 3D programs installed on my system. I'm plaing with each one, trying to find a good toolset/workflow for dts objects.
Good luck!
#46
Did you succesfully import CShop levels in TGE?
04/20/2004 (12:04 pm)
Thanks Michael, I expected that. Josh has a strange opinion about service levels, as far as I understood. Still I love the approach and the interface. I wait to buy it myself, but - well, you know better than me, don't you?Did you succesfully import CShop levels in TGE?
#47
04/20/2004 (12:14 pm)
What about using 3DSmax and using the new GLB3.0 (Game Level Builder 3.0). Has anyone tried this yet? I would be curious to hear. It exports to .map.
#48
04/20/2004 (12:20 pm)
What about using 3DSmax and using the new GLB3.0 (Game Level Builder 3.0). Has anyone tried this yet? I would be curious to hear. It exports to .map.
#49
Try the demo:
GreenBriar Studio ToolBox
04/20/2004 (11:17 pm)
Michael, have your tried ToolBox? It's like building levels in a 3D modeller. Torque compatible .map export is in and the author just started on static/animated .dts exporters. It also has .3ds import. $95Try the demo:
GreenBriar Studio ToolBox
#50
04/21/2004 (7:04 am)
The ToolBox Demo is still Beta and has no export in it's current state. 
#51
Just my two wooden nickles,
Frank
BTW, does anyone use duplicators? I have had some trouble with the resulting map files:
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=17870
04/29/2004 (9:13 pm)
Well, I have only had experience with Quark and Quake 3 Radiant. In my opinion, Quark has features that dwarf the capabilities of Radiant. The duplicators, conceptually, could make making very complex environments quickly and easily. The scripting makes it potentially a very nice program to do very intricate objects. You could use it to import files from programs that cater more to the artist. I am a programmer, but I do not shy away from creating textures and 3D objects. Quark has very nice features with a huge user base. With the little I have played with it I am very impressed. I had more trouble getting an updated copy of the map2dif program than understanding Quark. Just my two wooden nickles,
Frank
BTW, does anyone use duplicators? I have had some trouble with the resulting map files:
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=17870
#52
How?
My longtime mate, housemate and artist for our game has a cousin who is project manager at M$ and knows(as in, is good friends with) a few of the guys at Valve.
I was a surprise for both of us to learn this, so maybe we can get some good fortune headed this way in the form of a change L.A for Hammer.
We'll see...
BTW, I know not everyone will/wants to use hammer, but this would be good for most people.
Wonder if I can convince them to port to linux... hmm...
04/29/2004 (9:57 pm)
I *may* beable to get something slapped into the liscense agreement for Hammer sometime soon, or maybe even a version of Hammer just for TGE.How?
My longtime mate, housemate and artist for our game has a cousin who is project manager at M$ and knows(as in, is good friends with) a few of the guys at Valve.
I was a surprise for both of us to learn this, so maybe we can get some good fortune headed this way in the form of a change L.A for Hammer.
We'll see...
BTW, I know not everyone will/wants to use hammer, but this would be good for most people.
Wonder if I can convince them to port to linux... hmm...
#53
04/29/2004 (10:01 pm)
Ya, well I know this guy, well he dates this girl, and her roomates boyfriend has this cousin, and he said that, for 27 cents, he could get his neighbors dogs mates owners best friends niece to give me a Big Red Button to make games instantly. LOL. ;) Just playin.
#54
The interface is similar to worldcraft/Hammer so its easy to jump into.
Zmatrix
05/15/2004 (11:01 pm)
I have CS 4.1 it exports .map files that are supposed to be usable in HL. but so far I havent gotten one to sucsessfully convert to DIF.The interface is similar to worldcraft/Hammer so its easy to jump into.
Zmatrix
#55
I was trying to convert a level that used CS entity naming convention.(for the lights)
heh
after removing the lights it did convert.
Ill try to get lights working tommorow.
I think I should add the entity
class = Light_Omni
with the attributes
Color(R G B)
Alarm Type
Falloff1
Falloff2
I think thats how it is in worldcraft/hammer. But ill have to look.
Hopefully it will work and there will be another no strings attached editor for Torque
Zmatrix
05/15/2004 (11:30 pm)
Well Im an Idiot...lolI was trying to convert a level that used CS entity naming convention.(for the lights)
heh
after removing the lights it did convert.
Ill try to get lights working tommorow.
I think I should add the entity
class = Light_Omni
with the attributes
Color(R G B)
Alarm Type
Falloff1
Falloff2
I think thats how it is in worldcraft/hammer. But ill have to look.
Hopefully it will work and there will be another no strings attached editor for Torque
Zmatrix
#56
We're currently beta testing an update to the Csm2Dif resource that supports CS 4.1. Send me an email if you're interested in becoming a beta tester and I'll add you to the list.
-John
05/16/2004 (7:07 am)
Zmatrix,We're currently beta testing an update to the Csm2Dif resource that supports CS 4.1. Send me an email if you're interested in becoming a beta tester and I'll add you to the list.
-John
#57
it does work... like you said, you just gotta edit the map file and replace the offending tags...
here's a shot of a verry complex building structure exported from CS4 as a map running in Torque.
--Mike
05/18/2004 (10:20 am)
Hey Z...it does work... like you said, you just gotta edit the map file and replace the offending tags...
here's a shot of a verry complex building structure exported from CS4 as a map running in Torque.
--Mike
#58
I experienced this problem with Quark as well.
=======================
*QUOTE*
Now suddenly I can't put the 3D view into textured mode or this "blue" bar shows up and the view freezes. If I put it into solid or wireframe, it's fine. This is completely out of the blue.
=======================
I know you are dropping the piece of crap program, but for what it is worth, I figured out how to remedy this problem.
When your 3D View dorks up and shows a blue bar or the view freezes, open up the GL 3D View, it will render the pipeline to the screen and at the same time it unfreezes the 3D View window and makes it render correctly from that point on.
On a very rare occasion, I had to switch to Wireframe Rendering on the 3D View, then open the GL View, then close the GL View, and switch the rendering to Textured on the 3D View again, and presto!
Has anyone tried using BSP...the old Quake/Quake2/HalfLife editor from Yahn Bernier?
Anyway, that's my two cents.
-Trent
07/30/2004 (7:36 am)
Mike,I experienced this problem with Quark as well.
=======================
*QUOTE*
Now suddenly I can't put the 3D view into textured mode or this "blue" bar shows up and the view freezes. If I put it into solid or wireframe, it's fine. This is completely out of the blue.
=======================
I know you are dropping the piece of crap program, but for what it is worth, I figured out how to remedy this problem.
When your 3D View dorks up and shows a blue bar or the view freezes, open up the GL 3D View, it will render the pipeline to the screen and at the same time it unfreezes the 3D View window and makes it render correctly from that point on.
On a very rare occasion, I had to switch to Wireframe Rendering on the 3D View, then open the GL View, then close the GL View, and switch the rendering to Textured on the 3D View again, and presto!
Has anyone tried using BSP...the old Quake/Quake2/HalfLife editor from Yahn Bernier?
Anyway, that's my two cents.
-Trent
#59
As for the BSP editor by Yahn Bernier, I used to run the BSP HQ website for it and wrote tutorials for 3 years. I would kill to have that program available for mapping in Torque. Sadly, the last released version doesn't support the proper map format (if I remember right). I think you could do some command-line params to get it to use the right format, but doing that made the program unstable.
The program was written in Borland 4, and the source code was halfway through a mega-cleanup-conversion to Borland 5 when Yahn got hired by Valve. He sent the code to me and I worked on it with several other people, but it just won't compile :(
Using Quark the past couple of weeks has made me want to dig out the source code (if I even still have it) and try to convert it to MSVC just to be able to use a good editor again :)
07/30/2004 (9:30 am)
I usually switch to wireframe and then back again - that fixes it about half the time, but the GL window trick sounds helpful.As for the BSP editor by Yahn Bernier, I used to run the BSP HQ website for it and wrote tutorials for 3 years. I would kill to have that program available for mapping in Torque. Sadly, the last released version doesn't support the proper map format (if I remember right). I think you could do some command-line params to get it to use the right format, but doing that made the program unstable.
The program was written in Borland 4, and the source code was halfway through a mega-cleanup-conversion to Borland 5 when Yahn got hired by Valve. He sent the code to me and I worked on it with several other people, but it just won't compile :(
Using Quark the past couple of weeks has made me want to dig out the source code (if I even still have it) and try to convert it to MSVC just to be able to use a good editor again :)
#60
I think it would be awesome to have a DIF-based editor that is designed *specifically* for Torque.. No more worrying about setting up converters, exporters and scripts, or having to track and copy files from one folder to another, etc. etc.. Everything would be set up to automatically save to the correct folders, etc. I think the Torque community is certainly large enough to benefit from something of that scope.
At the moment, I'm re-visiting Cartography Shop. It's up to 4.1, and is a pretty straight-forward editor that I was able to pick up "like that". It has some bugs with some of the more key features (carving and hollowing), but you can work around those things easily enough. Its author is working on 5.0.
It looks like he's following the general system behind Epic's UnrealEditor.. the ability to have BSP geometry (dif) and static meshes (dts) created and/or placed in the same program and exported as a single file. If this could be accomplished for Torque, think of how much better and more intuitive designing interiors could be... Now if only he followed UEd's system of starting from a solid and carving rooms out instead of building them in a void.. that would be alot faster, too. And, with UEd's system, when a room is "subtracted", you can see inside it even when you're zoomed way out because rooms are basically polys with their normals turned in.. You don't see solid walls like you do with the Quake approach.
At the moment, I'm in another "QuARK? Blech..." mode.. But for entirely different reasons than I had originally posted about "way back" when I started this thread. Now, I'm finding it burdensome to work with because of these random "orphaned faces" that are created when I'm trying to copy and paste a block.. or resize an object, etc.. There's just all kinds of wierdness there. And I still think the interface is overwrought.
What features did your editor have, Rodney? And, though this is admittedly out of the blue, what do you think you'd do with it if you were to pick it up again?
Take care..
Mike
07/30/2004 (10:18 am)
Heck.. I'm all for trying out/learning a new level editor! I'll volunteer on Beta-testing if you decide to re-begin work on the editor, Rodney...I think it would be awesome to have a DIF-based editor that is designed *specifically* for Torque.. No more worrying about setting up converters, exporters and scripts, or having to track and copy files from one folder to another, etc. etc.. Everything would be set up to automatically save to the correct folders, etc. I think the Torque community is certainly large enough to benefit from something of that scope.
At the moment, I'm re-visiting Cartography Shop. It's up to 4.1, and is a pretty straight-forward editor that I was able to pick up "like that". It has some bugs with some of the more key features (carving and hollowing), but you can work around those things easily enough. Its author is working on 5.0.
It looks like he's following the general system behind Epic's UnrealEditor.. the ability to have BSP geometry (dif) and static meshes (dts) created and/or placed in the same program and exported as a single file. If this could be accomplished for Torque, think of how much better and more intuitive designing interiors could be... Now if only he followed UEd's system of starting from a solid and carving rooms out instead of building them in a void.. that would be alot faster, too. And, with UEd's system, when a room is "subtracted", you can see inside it even when you're zoomed way out because rooms are basically polys with their normals turned in.. You don't see solid walls like you do with the Quake approach.
At the moment, I'm in another "QuARK? Blech..." mode.. But for entirely different reasons than I had originally posted about "way back" when I started this thread. Now, I'm finding it burdensome to work with because of these random "orphaned faces" that are created when I'm trying to copy and paste a block.. or resize an object, etc.. There's just all kinds of wierdness there. And I still think the interface is overwrought.
What features did your editor have, Rodney? And, though this is admittedly out of the blue, what do you think you'd do with it if you were to pick it up again?
Take care..
Mike
Torque Owner Mark Barner
mbarnatl
Matt Summers
Thread about GameSpace for Torque.
I understand that alot of people can't afford this. You have to use the available resources in your price range. But be careful with the licenses that do not clearly ok you the right to use it for your project. One thing that confuses me is that Worldcraft 3.3 is in the documentation and how to configure it for Torque. And then you have in the forums GG employees telling you to use Quark. And that Worldcraft is now Hammer causes alot of confusion. I know you can use it for non-commercial games. But you might still want to get a personal email from valve confirming it for your project. Play it safe and cover your butt legally or it will cost you more than the amount of what I payed on my gamespace bundle.