Goodbye and Good Riddance to QuARK... any other suggestions?
by Mitovo · in Torque Game Engine · 03/28/2004 (7:17 am) · 87 replies
Okay, after running into problem after problem after problem with it I'm dropping QuARK completely.
Now suddenly I can't put the 3D view into textured mode or this "blue" bar shows up and the view freezes. If I put it into solid or wireframe, it's fine. This is completely out of the blue.
Anyway, I'm done with it.
I'm sick of dealing with this rolling train-wreck of a program and am open to suggestions of other, proven, programs to use in its place...
Here are some options I've looked into and am considering, to different degrees, as possible replacements:
Cartography Shop: I've checked this out, and it's a pretty smooth program. I'm not sure of the functionality, though, because from what I got to see it seems a bit limited in what you can do with it. Though that could just be me not looking into it that deeply. It is functional, has some nice-looking lightmapping, and is pretty straight-forward for creating and texturing geometry. Of course the pertinent questions:
- Is there a converter that will properly get its file format (or a .map format if it does that) into .dif?
- Is there documentation of how one goes about naming key entities (portals, lights, etc) in the editor to have them correctly carried over into .dif?
Tread3D: This looks like a nice editor and seems to be quite feature-rich. I've been looking at its various features and the only question I'm left with is how the set-up works. Like, I know in Hammer, you need to have a game setup before you can effectively edit anything. I don't know if it's the same with Tread3D, or if anyone has worked with it and knows how to set it up for Torque... Anyway, it's another option I'm looking into.
Hammer: I would have looked at this, but it's been mentioned that certain restrictions are in place that would make it illegal to use it in any sort of a commercial project.. So I guess that's right out.
3D Editor/3DS-to-.map converter: I've seen converters out there for 3DS-to-map. I don't know how well they work. I remember playing with one back in the Quake2 days and it worked pretty well, carrying over omni lights, and the like where a Quake editor would load them with all intact. I don't know how feasible a solution that is.. but.. I thought of it, so it's in the options list..
Any feedback/suggestions?
Thanks!
Mike
Now suddenly I can't put the 3D view into textured mode or this "blue" bar shows up and the view freezes. If I put it into solid or wireframe, it's fine. This is completely out of the blue.
Anyway, I'm done with it.
I'm sick of dealing with this rolling train-wreck of a program and am open to suggestions of other, proven, programs to use in its place...
Here are some options I've looked into and am considering, to different degrees, as possible replacements:
Cartography Shop: I've checked this out, and it's a pretty smooth program. I'm not sure of the functionality, though, because from what I got to see it seems a bit limited in what you can do with it. Though that could just be me not looking into it that deeply. It is functional, has some nice-looking lightmapping, and is pretty straight-forward for creating and texturing geometry. Of course the pertinent questions:
- Is there a converter that will properly get its file format (or a .map format if it does that) into .dif?
- Is there documentation of how one goes about naming key entities (portals, lights, etc) in the editor to have them correctly carried over into .dif?
Tread3D: This looks like a nice editor and seems to be quite feature-rich. I've been looking at its various features and the only question I'm left with is how the set-up works. Like, I know in Hammer, you need to have a game setup before you can effectively edit anything. I don't know if it's the same with Tread3D, or if anyone has worked with it and knows how to set it up for Torque... Anyway, it's another option I'm looking into.
Hammer: I would have looked at this, but it's been mentioned that certain restrictions are in place that would make it illegal to use it in any sort of a commercial project.. So I guess that's right out.
3D Editor/3DS-to-.map converter: I've seen converters out there for 3DS-to-map. I don't know how well they work. I remember playing with one back in the Quake2 days and it worked pretty well, carrying over omni lights, and the like where a Quake editor would load them with all intact. I don't know how feasible a solution that is.. but.. I thought of it, so it's in the options list..
Any feedback/suggestions?
Thanks!
Mike
About the author
#22
And since, i have to reinstall everthing....... Nice screen shot.
03/29/2004 (11:30 am)
I have not had the same problems (yet) then again I still have not got it set up correctly yet either :(..And since, i have to reinstall everthing....... Nice screen shot.
#23
03/29/2004 (3:23 pm)
I like to use 3D GameStudio for level editing (it costs money, but $50 gets you the standard edition which will do). You can save as .map and then import into QuArK to compile.
#24
However, I don't plan on dishing out $65 for it until there is a confirmed path from CS4 into Torque. In the meantime I guess I will give QuArK a few more chances and mess around with ToolBox.
04/16/2004 (1:38 am)
I just got done playing around with the CS4 demo after hours of trying out QuArK. I have to say that I was much more productive in CS4, even without any tutorials. I think it is much better suited for anyone used to using 3D modelers.However, I don't plan on dishing out $65 for it until there is a confirmed path from CS4 into Torque. In the meantime I guess I will give QuArK a few more chances and mess around with ToolBox.
#25
Another plus for CS4 is that it can import .x and .3ds. Also, Tree Magic Pro ($45) now has a .csm export. That makes populating your levels with objects and trees much easier. I guess you could potentially create a bunch of .dif tree/object prefabs.
If that is all correct, then these apps could be a great productivity boost for me.
EDIT:
Tree Magic Pro
04/16/2004 (2:14 am)
I just found out that CS4.1 can export Half-Life .map files. Would map2dif.exe work on these? Or could I load them into QuArK and then export to .dif?Another plus for CS4 is that it can import .x and .3ds. Also, Tree Magic Pro ($45) now has a .csm export. That makes populating your levels with objects and trees much easier. I guess you could potentially create a bunch of .dif tree/object prefabs.
If that is all correct, then these apps could be a great productivity boost for me.
EDIT:
Tree Magic Pro
#26
Why people can't stand it I'll never know, but I think its just quirky that way...kind of like blender. The blender interface isn't my favorite, not by a longshot, but it's free open source software like QuArK, so you wouldn't hear me ranting about it.
"Why do I have to go searching in some online infobase to find it?"
The infobase isn't included in the download to keep the filesize low. They know most people are not downloading QuArK for the first time, which is why they put a link at the top of the downloads section to grab the infobase. Link
"What about the program giving me random error messages that it can't find a texture, even after I've just applied it to a surface a moment earlier without a problem?"
QuArK allows you to import your textures into a .qrk file via the texture browser. If you import them and still have problems, well then the texture really doesen't exist, or you don't have the .qrk file loaded that the texture is saved in.
I have over 2.5GB of textures chunked up between three .qrk files, and besides hogging my memory (naturally with that amount of data), I've never had a problem.
"Only the programmers like it (generality). Even after it is well configured and that you master all of it, it will take you lot more time to do your jobs then anything else you've used as an artist (Double of the time, minimum)"
I completely disagree. I'm not a programmer, and find QuArK to be a time-saver (thanks to the numerous widgets like prism maker), intuitive, and relatively easy to master once you have a decent grasp.
P.S. I'm not some QuArK zealot, but hearing it get flamed gets me a little upset. And most of this is flaming, not constructive criticism.
Good luck with whatever you find. -J
04/16/2004 (4:12 am)
I've been using QuArK for several years (5~) and for numerous games (most notably Quake II, HL, Quake III, Torque). I think the "stock" interface is brilliant, and has only gotten better over the years. I've never experienced glitches in the viewports, and only occasional and usually minor glitches in the program as a whole. With the amount of games it supports and the frequency in which it has always been updated some are to be expected.Why people can't stand it I'll never know, but I think its just quirky that way...kind of like blender. The blender interface isn't my favorite, not by a longshot, but it's free open source software like QuArK, so you wouldn't hear me ranting about it.
"Why do I have to go searching in some online infobase to find it?"
The infobase isn't included in the download to keep the filesize low. They know most people are not downloading QuArK for the first time, which is why they put a link at the top of the downloads section to grab the infobase. Link
"What about the program giving me random error messages that it can't find a texture, even after I've just applied it to a surface a moment earlier without a problem?"
QuArK allows you to import your textures into a .qrk file via the texture browser. If you import them and still have problems, well then the texture really doesen't exist, or you don't have the .qrk file loaded that the texture is saved in.
I have over 2.5GB of textures chunked up between three .qrk files, and besides hogging my memory (naturally with that amount of data), I've never had a problem.
"Only the programmers like it (generality). Even after it is well configured and that you master all of it, it will take you lot more time to do your jobs then anything else you've used as an artist (Double of the time, minimum)"
I completely disagree. I'm not a programmer, and find QuArK to be a time-saver (thanks to the numerous widgets like prism maker), intuitive, and relatively easy to master once you have a decent grasp.
P.S. I'm not some QuArK zealot, but hearing it get flamed gets me a little upset. And most of this is flaming, not constructive criticism.
Good luck with whatever you find. -J
#27
Valve gave us indies permission a while back. Feel free to try Hammer.
04/16/2004 (4:21 am)
I did not see it mentioned...probably was...but I'll say here that THERE ARE NO LEGAL OBSTACLES TO USING HAMMER.Valve gave us indies permission a while back. Feel free to try Hammer.
#28
04/16/2004 (6:25 am)
Not according to their licensing...which is the problem.
#29
04/16/2004 (11:26 am)
We at GG use Quark due to the legal confusion over Hammer. It's OK but could be better. We're working on fixing that.
#30
This is NOT TRUE. Until the License Agreement reflects the unofficial email comment, it is not legal in any sense that would hold up in court. While I seriously doubt that Valve has any ill intention toward indies, it is best to be safe until the legally binding agreement is changed.
04/16/2004 (5:42 pm)
THERE ARE NO LEGAL OBSTACLES TO USING HAMMER.
This is NOT TRUE. Until the License Agreement reflects the unofficial email comment, it is not legal in any sense that would hold up in court. While I seriously doubt that Valve has any ill intention toward indies, it is best to be safe until the legally binding agreement is changed.
#31
04/16/2004 (7:42 pm)
Try asking them nicely for a written notice that you may use Hammer for your project. ;)
#32
I have see requests that just ask "can I use it in Torque" and the response is "yes" Which one could argue that they were asking if it works with Torque not asking for a permission to use it in a comercial game.
Of course I am not a lawyer so the above might not be good enough in a court fight. So if you have really big concerns I would talk to one.
04/17/2004 (5:05 am)
Quote:I would include in that request asking words like "use it for a comercial game with no credit, fees or other obligations to Value for use of the tool" Make it perfectly clear of your intent and what you are asking.
Try asking them nicely for a written notice that you may use Hammer for your project. ;)
I have see requests that just ask "can I use it in Torque" and the response is "yes" Which one could argue that they were asking if it works with Torque not asking for a permission to use it in a comercial game.
Of course I am not a lawyer so the above might not be good enough in a court fight. So if you have really big concerns I would talk to one.
#33
Thanks.
- Rasmus
04/17/2004 (7:28 am)
Does anyone use Lightwave? and how does that compare with the other products (Not pricewise).Thanks.
- Rasmus
#34
04/17/2004 (9:07 am)
Lightwave is not currently a suitable replacement for Quark or Hammer. 
#35
Also there is a book comming out next month "3D Programing All in One". There is a chapter all about structures in it and a Reference section to Quark. The Publisher site here. A April 16,2004 thread where the author gave a detail TOC.
A Cartography Shop dif compiler with prefab support is supposed to be released soon... info here.
This is just a few options and hope it will help.
04/17/2004 (11:49 am)
Here is another option. GameSpace1.5 with Torque DTS Exporter, Torque mapExporter, Polygon Modeling course and Keyframe Animation course for only $299! On the lower price end is Cartography Shop... but it will be more til the end of the year before verison 5 comes out with the Torque map exporter built in it. Also there is a book comming out next month "3D Programing All in One". There is a chapter all about structures in it and a Reference section to Quark. The Publisher site here. A April 16,2004 thread where the author gave a detail TOC.
A Cartography Shop dif compiler with prefab support is supposed to be released soon... info here.
This is just a few options and hope it will help.
#36
04/17/2004 (3:33 pm)
Nice resources, Mark. Thanks.
#37
Can you explain why lightwave is currently not a suitable replacement for Quark or Hammer? I haven't used any of these programs yet, but I am trying to figure out the best possible program to make use of for designing structures and building for Torque..
- Rasmus
04/17/2004 (3:58 pm)
Hi BenCan you explain why lightwave is currently not a suitable replacement for Quark or Hammer? I haven't used any of these programs yet, but I am trying to figure out the best possible program to make use of for designing structures and building for Torque..
- Rasmus
#38
04/17/2004 (4:14 pm)
Ok, I donno much about the other editors except Quark needs a UI Redesign cause only rocket scientists can understand it. Hammer has licensing issues, no experiance for 3ds converters but hey, more pwoer to ya if they work for you. I personally have much experiance with Tread 3D, as i code for it (go figuare). The 2.4 version is bug-ridden and sucks, if you try going by source there is many unfound libraries. Version 2.3 is ideal, and when you code a .trd file for it (Similer to fgd) it works very well. Cartography shop is also awsome, but you gotta pay $$ =\. (opinion, i will prob never look at this thread again, just a few insights from my experiances.)
#39
04/17/2004 (4:29 pm)
Rasmus - simple. Quark and Hammer are specifically designed for doing CSG based level creation. Lightwave is not. There is no toolchain for Lightwave and Lightwave won't emit efficient brush based geometry.
#40
Try turning off your firewall while running CartShop. I had the exact same problem with both Maya and Max. If my firewall was on, the program would exit to desktop almost the same instant they finished loading. Turned off the firewall, everything works fine.
04/17/2004 (5:00 pm)
Quote:Cartography Shop is a nice environment as well, but I've never really used it for much since it opens and then automatically closes after applying the license file
Try turning off your firewall while running CartShop. I had the exact same problem with both Maya and Max. If my firewall was on, the program would exit to desktop almost the same instant they finished loading. Turned off the firewall, everything works fine.
Torque Owner Mitovo
But no way for actual creating/editing the maps to begin with.