You don't have to hide your source-code
by Vincent Ellis · in General Discussion · 01/03/2014 (9:58 am) · 26 replies
I have noticed a certain attitude towards closed-source projects around these parts, which is very odd and annoying for me, coming from an open-source background. Most people have many experimental projects under their wing and they protect that code like hell, instead of sharing with everyone else. Which is odd, because:
- You're not the best programmer in the world and you're not a genius. But you can try to be, if you open-source your code, allowing better programmers to fix your code or make more elegant implementations. And you can teach less experienced programmers by allowing them to read your code. I have lost the count of how many times i learned and taught other people from simply open-sourcing my code and discussing it with everyone involved.
- You're killing the community. There's already too little interest and activity in the T3D forums and community, and by closing your source and hiding your expertise, you're slowly killing the interest in everyone else.
www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/business/business-and-law/you-dont-need-to-hide...
I guess that everyone should embrace GarageGame's attitude of opening up and contribute to the T3D community, making sure it stays active. Publish your stuff to GitHub, long live T3D!
- You're not the best programmer in the world and you're not a genius. But you can try to be, if you open-source your code, allowing better programmers to fix your code or make more elegant implementations. And you can teach less experienced programmers by allowing them to read your code. I have lost the count of how many times i learned and taught other people from simply open-sourcing my code and discussing it with everyone involved.
- You're killing the community. There's already too little interest and activity in the T3D forums and community, and by closing your source and hiding your expertise, you're slowly killing the interest in everyone else.
www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/business/business-and-law/you-dont-need-to-hide...
I guess that everyone should embrace GarageGame's attitude of opening up and contribute to the T3D community, making sure it stays active. Publish your stuff to GitHub, long live T3D!
#2
Here he said "experimental projects" too many projects just die off because people never do anything with it and just let it die.
Personally I release every project I don't care to finish off properly.
But you find all these awesome videos on youtube in T3D with someone who have done this or that, but it never came to light!
01/03/2014 (12:09 pm)
I have to agree with Vincent here.Here he said "experimental projects" too many projects just die off because people never do anything with it and just let it die.
Personally I release every project I don't care to finish off properly.
But you find all these awesome videos on youtube in T3D with someone who have done this or that, but it never came to light!
#3
I agree about unfinished personal projects.
01/03/2014 (12:30 pm)
The article is about finished games, though.I agree about unfinished personal projects.
#4
I was thinking about personal tech, and implementation of other software.
01/03/2014 (12:34 pm)
Yeah I don't agree about games, since they don't have anything innovative on the tech side, so releasing the source code doesn't give any benefits except from letting someone else finish the game.I was thinking about personal tech, and implementation of other software.
#5
01/03/2014 (12:37 pm)
Why wouldn't games be able to innovate on tech? That's what id software did for 15 years.
#6
01/03/2014 (12:43 pm)
Well, what I'm meaning is that the game itself isn't giving any innovative tech (storyline, game logic, art etc) the tech the game utilizes is the innovative tech.
#7
Ron
01/03/2014 (1:57 pm)
NOPE, what's mine is mine. I learned it, I earned it. Period. Besides, the CONCEPT of MIT and GIT is to share. Not many people 'sharing' here. It's usually 3 to 6 guys working and as usual... everyone else waits and sees. My attitude has changed VASTLY on this recently. In fact, I am even pulling all my commercial products from here and WLE.Ron
#8
Not sure I understand.. why are you pulling your (excellent) commercial products from here and WLE?
01/03/2014 (2:13 pm)
GIT is a revision control system, Ron. It has nothing to do with sharing. :)Not sure I understand.. why are you pulling your (excellent) commercial products from here and WLE?
#9
That people should share their experimental projects, so other people can finish them up and put them in the engine if it's something that they want in the engine? Instead of everyone working on their own small projects, never finishing them and never releasing them.
I think the point was that you might as well release your half-finished projects (true it's not the point of the article he linked to, but it's what I got out of the thread-description).
01/03/2014 (2:14 pm)
Well Ron isn't this what the thread is about?That people should share their experimental projects, so other people can finish them up and put them in the engine if it's something that they want in the engine? Instead of everyone working on their own small projects, never finishing them and never releasing them.
I think the point was that you might as well release your half-finished projects (true it's not the point of the article he linked to, but it's what I got out of the thread-description).
#10
01/03/2014 (3:37 pm)
@Ron: That's regrettable, though I can't say I don't see why you would come to that conclusion. I can only say with the limited time I've got, I'm attempting to do my small part to alter that a bit. Sorry if the time it's taking isn't helping matters as much as either of us would like, or as quickly.
#11
Take Quake's community for example. It's been 15 years since the first source release, and there's still a shitload of people working on Q1, Q2 and Q3 codebases. Not only improving, but learning from it. And not only learning from the official release, but learning from the thousands of unfinished mods, ports and forks of those codebase, and producing new content. You won't see a thread in any Quake development community without the source code. People EXPECT you to read their code, help them improve, or even continue their work, with a new perspective.
The same applies to the Doom community and other game dev communities centered around source releases. It's very sad that this community is somewhat "plagued" by arrogant who think their code is too valuable and superior to see the light of day.
01/03/2014 (6:33 pm)
That exact attitude, "NOPE, what's mine is mine. I learned it, I earned it. ", is what brings the whole community down. You did not learn by yourself. You read someone else's code, you read someone else's article, tutorial or even documentation.Take Quake's community for example. It's been 15 years since the first source release, and there's still a shitload of people working on Q1, Q2 and Q3 codebases. Not only improving, but learning from it. And not only learning from the official release, but learning from the thousands of unfinished mods, ports and forks of those codebase, and producing new content. You won't see a thread in any Quake development community without the source code. People EXPECT you to read their code, help them improve, or even continue their work, with a new perspective.
The same applies to the Doom community and other game dev communities centered around source releases. It's very sad that this community is somewhat "plagued" by arrogant who think their code is too valuable and superior to see the light of day.
#12
We are all allowed to have our own opinions and way of doing things.
01/03/2014 (6:41 pm)
Well now Vincent, shouldn't we keep a proper tone and not throw off such harsh words..We are all allowed to have our own opinions and way of doing things.
#13
01/03/2014 (7:58 pm)
Chiming in to say a line is being crossed. Keep it civil or the thread gets locked. 
#14
01/03/2014 (11:13 pm)
I tend to hash out things in answer to questions that I see popping up over and over. They're not "production" things, they're "thinking in code" things - like the inventory gui thing I dropped on GitHub. Now instead of trying to explain it I just link it and say "read." My T3D AI tutorial is the same way - no docs, just scripts, read it and take what you want from it.
#15
And when was the Quake engine released as GPL, Vincent? Was it in 1996 when Quake was released? No, it wasn't. They wouldn't release it earlier because they were depending on commercial licensing. They didn't release it to share but to profit from it. The same thing happened with all incarnations of id's engines.
You keep mentioning learning. You have to accept that some people, unlike yourself, don't need to learn. Most that I've talked to just want to make games, not engines.
What have you brought to the community?
01/04/2014 (4:18 am)
Quote:
Take Quake's community for example. It's been 15 years since the first source release, and there's still a shitload of people working on Q1, Q2 and Q3 codebases. Not only improving, but learning from it. And not only learning from the official release, but learning from the thousands of unfinished mods, ports and forks of those codebase, and producing new content. You won't see a thread in any Quake development community without the source code. People EXPECT you to read their code, help them improve, or even continue their work, with a new perspective.
And when was the Quake engine released as GPL, Vincent? Was it in 1996 when Quake was released? No, it wasn't. They wouldn't release it earlier because they were depending on commercial licensing. They didn't release it to share but to profit from it. The same thing happened with all incarnations of id's engines.
You keep mentioning learning. You have to accept that some people, unlike yourself, don't need to learn. Most that I've talked to just want to make games, not engines.
What have you brought to the community?
#16
01/04/2014 (5:04 am)
In defense of the GG community, I have to say it was built from the ground up with sharing in mind. Just take a look at the resources section. Even before the engine was open source, users were providing free code, docs, and art for others to use. This isn't a black and white issue. Some share, some don't, but it is currently obvious there are not enough contributors. So more folks should step up, for sure. However, no one should be forced to. Not everyone can develop engines.
#17
Thats just a more personalized, and specific contribution, still a contribution tho!
I think a mind-set change is needed as well, I think (think) that a lot of people think of contributing as "adding DX11 support" or "port to mac" where we should make clear that contributing is "fixing that small bug you just happened to stumple upon" or "submitting a code-snippet for that feature you developed".. Hell even selling your game, and make it public that it's using T3D (splash screen or so) is a great contribution!
01/04/2014 (5:13 am)
I think providing help on the forums should count as sharing and contributing as well. Here on GG.com people usually get an answer within 24 hours (albeit about 40% of my question doesn't ever get an answer.. But thats my fault for digging to deep into the dark dungeons of T3D!) and if an answer hasn't been found immediately, people continously follow up on the issue. I think it's fantastic how we, with the small community we have, can still provide excellent support on the forums.Thats just a more personalized, and specific contribution, still a contribution tho!
I think a mind-set change is needed as well, I think (think) that a lot of people think of contributing as "adding DX11 support" or "port to mac" where we should make clear that contributing is "fixing that small bug you just happened to stumple upon" or "submitting a code-snippet for that feature you developed".. Hell even selling your game, and make it public that it's using T3D (splash screen or so) is a great contribution!
#18
Excellent suggestion. Don't forget about writing documentation, such as a short tutorial or explanation of a system. Even forum threads that are just ramblings while you learn aspects of the engine are fantastic, such as what Jesse Allen is doing with his T2D game. As he learns, he posts what he figured out and how he did it. He's not sharing his game code, but his contributions are excellent for any newcomer to T2D.
01/04/2014 (5:22 am)
Quote:that contributing is "fixing that small bug you just happened to stumple upon" or "submitting a code-snippet for that feature you developed".. Hell even selling your game, and make it public that it's using T3D (splash screen or so) is a great contribution!
Excellent suggestion. Don't forget about writing documentation, such as a short tutorial or explanation of a system. Even forum threads that are just ramblings while you learn aspects of the engine are fantastic, such as what Jesse Allen is doing with his T2D game. As he learns, he posts what he figured out and how he did it. He's not sharing his game code, but his contributions are excellent for any newcomer to T2D.
#19
I don't think that GarageGames intention was any different, trying to extract every last drop of profit from it's product. But you're missing the point of my comment. I'm not talking about id's attitude towards open-source, or GG for that matter, that's irrelevant. I'm talking about the community that formed around those source releases and their attitude. People never hid their mods, ports and forks. There's always new stuff appearing, either based on something old or not so old. There are many engines formed from bits of code from many abandoned projects, and many mods as well. Makaqu and Engoo, for example, are the result of many software-rendering projects that died out, but always with the source included. Same applies for Darkplaces, ezQuake and others.
01/04/2014 (5:28 am)
Quote:And when was the Quake engine released as GPL, Vincent? Was it in 1996 when Quake was released? No, it wasn't. They wouldn't release it earlier because they were depending on commercial licensing. They didn't release it to share but to profit from it. The same thing happened with all incarnations of id's engines.
I don't think that GarageGames intention was any different, trying to extract every last drop of profit from it's product. But you're missing the point of my comment. I'm not talking about id's attitude towards open-source, or GG for that matter, that's irrelevant. I'm talking about the community that formed around those source releases and their attitude. People never hid their mods, ports and forks. There's always new stuff appearing, either based on something old or not so old. There are many engines formed from bits of code from many abandoned projects, and many mods as well. Makaqu and Engoo, for example, are the result of many software-rendering projects that died out, but always with the source included. Same applies for Darkplaces, ezQuake and others.
Quote:So more folks should step up, for sure. However, no one should be forced to. Not everyone can develop engines.This thread is not about forcing, but inspiring.
Quote:where we should make clear that contributing is "fixing that small bug you just happened to stumple upon" or "submitting a code-snippet for that feature you developed"Exactly! It's not about big features or big resources, but the small changes. And, most importantly, the story behind that. That's what makes up the community stronger, by allowing knowledge to be the unique synergy.
#20
Well, that's the problem.. you're comparing two very different (at least traditionally) communities like they were the same. The guys who improve the Quake engine do it as a hobby. If they would make a game out of it that they want to sell, they must share their code. That's how the GPL works.
There are a lot of people on here that wants to make great games and make a living out of it. That's the biggest difference.
01/04/2014 (5:31 am)
Good points!Quote:
People never hid their mods, ports and forks.
Well, that's the problem.. you're comparing two very different (at least traditionally) communities like they were the same. The guys who improve the Quake engine do it as a hobby. If they would make a game out of it that they want to sell, they must share their code. That's how the GPL works.
There are a lot of people on here that wants to make great games and make a living out of it. That's the biggest difference.
Torque Owner Stefan Lundmark
Torque hasn't always been open source. Some of us came here when it could be purchased for $100.
The article you link to has several flaws (online components, private servers, licensing issues and IP, etc). Read the comments by Hodgman, Blackarch and alnite in particular.