Gui?
by Jason Tilley · in Torque 2D Beginner · 12/29/2013 (12:26 am) · 12 replies
Hi all,
Does Torque 2D not have a GUI? I keep seeing tutorials for Torque Game Builder but cannot see this anywhere. So far I'm going through the tutorial videos to create a toy in the sandbox.
Thanks!
Does Torque 2D not have a GUI? I keep seeing tutorials for Torque Game Builder but cannot see this anywhere. So far I'm going through the tutorial videos to create a toy in the sandbox.
Thanks!
About the author
#2
12/29/2013 (3:18 am)
So what benefit does Torque2D offer over any of the other 2d game programs/engines that offer a gui editor? I'm talking Construct 2 and GameSalad specifically which both have functions already scripted in, plus I believe you can code additional ones... 
#3
I personally haven't used either product you mentioned (I develop on the Mac and Construct 2 is Windows only, for example). This is my impression just from reading their websites:
Both products are developed by companies that want to make money (nothing wrong with that), so they hope to hook you with their free version and restrict certain features or publishing options so you end up buying their professional version. You also do not have access to the source code, so you are dependent on that company to fix bugs and add features on their timescale. One benefit of Torque is that it is free and open source, you are in no way restricted in what you can do with the engine.
For absolute beginners, Construct 2 or GameSalad are probably better choices to get a simple game up and running. But for intermediate or advanced users, you will probably feel restricted by what you can't do though. Not everyone reaches that point though, especially if game dev is just a hobby.
Torque's biggest drawback at the moment is its lack of editors. But it's greatest strength is that it can grow with you - there are no true roadblocks in making the kind of game you want, you are only held back by your own abilities with TorqueScript or C++.
12/29/2013 (5:56 am)
Think of it this way - if it is so much easier to ride a bicycle with training wheels, why do we ever take them off?I personally haven't used either product you mentioned (I develop on the Mac and Construct 2 is Windows only, for example). This is my impression just from reading their websites:
Both products are developed by companies that want to make money (nothing wrong with that), so they hope to hook you with their free version and restrict certain features or publishing options so you end up buying their professional version. You also do not have access to the source code, so you are dependent on that company to fix bugs and add features on their timescale. One benefit of Torque is that it is free and open source, you are in no way restricted in what you can do with the engine.
For absolute beginners, Construct 2 or GameSalad are probably better choices to get a simple game up and running. But for intermediate or advanced users, you will probably feel restricted by what you can't do though. Not everyone reaches that point though, especially if game dev is just a hobby.
Torque's biggest drawback at the moment is its lack of editors. But it's greatest strength is that it can grow with you - there are no true roadblocks in making the kind of game you want, you are only held back by your own abilities with TorqueScript or C++.
#4
I think it was a step backwards removing the gui interface as this now limits it to only the hardcore people who don't mind coding everything from scratch.
12/29/2013 (6:44 am)
I agree with you that they offer a trial version but most professional business do this. I don't believe they're solely for beginners though. They are more designed for people who don't want to code. I'm sure there are certain functions that they might be missing, but Construct 2 does offer the ability to code your own custom plugins and behaviours, plus the community offers a lot of these as well.I think it was a step backwards removing the gui interface as this now limits it to only the hardcore people who don't mind coding everything from scratch.
#5
The statement that "most professional business do this" is true, but you're not talking about business here - Torque 2D is no longer a business venture. It is free. You have the entire source codebase to use as you wish - Construct 2 and GameSalad do not give you their engine source code to my knowledge. And I don't think Torque 2D is aimed at people who don't want to code, though the old TGB/iT2D leaned heavily in this direction. T2D MIT is definitely more for people who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty, like the old Apple ][+ computer (it came as a kit in an age when computers were not for the faint of heart).
Now that the explanation is out of the way, here is a ray of hope; I am working on porting the old GUI editor suite to the MIT version of T2D. I expect that it will be un-broken enough to drop as a pull request to the dev branch by the end of February (I have to move sometime in January and that will free me up to put more time into it).
12/29/2013 (9:00 am)
The changes made during the final phases of Torque 2D's lifecycle included several modifications to the GUI codebase that broke the GUI editing suite. Since at that time the final intent was to turn T2D into a very different product that would not need a GUI editor this was not seen as a critical issue and the dev team worked around it. When it was decided that the engine would be given away freely as open source software the added expense of rebuilding the GUI editing tools dictated that this would be left for "community effort."The statement that "most professional business do this" is true, but you're not talking about business here - Torque 2D is no longer a business venture. It is free. You have the entire source codebase to use as you wish - Construct 2 and GameSalad do not give you their engine source code to my knowledge. And I don't think Torque 2D is aimed at people who don't want to code, though the old TGB/iT2D leaned heavily in this direction. T2D MIT is definitely more for people who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty, like the old Apple ][+ computer (it came as a kit in an age when computers were not for the faint of heart).
Now that the explanation is out of the way, here is a ray of hope; I am working on porting the old GUI editor suite to the MIT version of T2D. I expect that it will be un-broken enough to drop as a pull request to the dev branch by the end of February (I have to move sometime in January and that will free me up to put more time into it).
#6
Feel free to jump in and help out.
Note that the profiles for the GUI Editor are in flux - if you are not familiar with the old GUI Editor or don't have one of the tutorials in front of you there might be some weirdness. Again, feel free to have a whack at fixing it - I'll be working on this as I find time.
Hey Mitch! If you have time, look at this and tell me if there is anything else I should remove from this stuff - assets, etc. - I'll replace any images that are verboten with some of my trademark programmer art....
12/29/2013 (12:57 pm)
Ok, I spent some time cleaning up a little and I have pushed my current WIP of the GUI Editor port to my Git repo. There are piles of scripts in the EditorCore module that are probably extraneous, but I'm going to leave them until I can get the asset library ported - including the image and sound importers. Once those are all in I'll start pruning things down more.Feel free to jump in and help out.
Note that the profiles for the GUI Editor are in flux - if you are not familiar with the old GUI Editor or don't have one of the tutorials in front of you there might be some weirdness. Again, feel free to have a whack at fixing it - I'll be working on this as I find time.
Hey Mitch! If you have time, look at this and tell me if there is anything else I should remove from this stuff - assets, etc. - I'll replace any images that are verboten with some of my trademark programmer art....
#7
12/29/2013 (4:08 pm)
nice work on this effort Richard. I've not really had time to work on Torque 2D MIT or TGB, but supported GGs products all the same. There will be a time when I'll venture into 2D games again and appreciate your time on this. I've always loved the quickness of what GUI's can bring to development even as a baseline.
#8
Basically, I dusted this off enough to get the errors out of the console. There is plenty of work to do correcting project paths, default values and other things.
12/29/2013 (5:03 pm)
In its current state I advise running just to edit GUIs, then restarting - I have to track down an issue causing the editor to fail to toggle correctly after use.Basically, I dusted this off enough to get the errors out of the console. There is plenty of work to do correcting project paths, default values and other things.
#9
As an open source effort, you get results like this: Torque 2D for Steam OS. Platforms and features are added more rapidly than commercial products, depending on the effort from the community.
On the subject of features, Torque 2D does offer what other engines do not. That's the case with all middleware. No one engine is the end all, be all. Cost, licensing restrictions, source availability, physics, rendering, platform availability, and so on. These are all factors when picking an engine. T2D offers a very excellent set of core features any game developer would find appealing. On the flip side, it is missing some features you find in other engines...though I see community projects that can bridge the gap.
Regarding a suite of editors, this is not a massive undertaking. It's just that no one has publicly talked about such work, with the exception of Richard. A knowledgeable Torque 2D user could crank out editor modules rather quickly. For example, I was able to code the following in a week (part time):
- Editor core
- "Plugin module"
- ImageAsset editor
- AnimationAsset editor
- AudioAsset editor
- ParticleAsset editor
It just takes motivation and time.
12/30/2013 (6:53 am)
Quote:So what benefit does Torque2D offer
As an open source effort, you get results like this: Torque 2D for Steam OS. Platforms and features are added more rapidly than commercial products, depending on the effort from the community.
On the subject of features, Torque 2D does offer what other engines do not. That's the case with all middleware. No one engine is the end all, be all. Cost, licensing restrictions, source availability, physics, rendering, platform availability, and so on. These are all factors when picking an engine. T2D offers a very excellent set of core features any game developer would find appealing. On the flip side, it is missing some features you find in other engines...though I see community projects that can bridge the gap.
Regarding a suite of editors, this is not a massive undertaking. It's just that no one has publicly talked about such work, with the exception of Richard. A knowledgeable Torque 2D user could crank out editor modules rather quickly. For example, I was able to code the following in a week (part time):
- Editor core
- "Plugin module"
- ImageAsset editor
- AnimationAsset editor
- AudioAsset editor
- ParticleAsset editor
It just takes motivation and time.
#10
Torque and GUI
As a newcomer to Torque, there did come a time when I was faced with the ultimate decision of whether or not I should stick with T2D or move on to a GUI-based engine. I may be the exception rather than the rule (I'm fairly stubborn) but in the end I was able to see the power of Torque hidden away behind the fact that there is no GUI. It was just this small 'barrier', the fact that there were no GUI tools on first examination of the engine, that nearly cast the illusion on me that T2D was in some way inferior to other options.
I'm here to say that it's not. With Torque, you can do almost whatever you please with the premade templates of nearly every scenario you can think of that comes with the Sandbox. Once that's solid, the sky's the limit because you have the source and you can just recompile a new solution if you need additional functionality!
What About Other Engines?
I did go so far as to venture off and try a copy of Unity, for example. While at first glance it was nice to click little checkboxes and move my window panels, I was finding that I had to learn little discrepancies within the engine and software all over again. Also everything that I was able to do there I could already do with Torque, but with Torque I could do it directly with a text file instead of digging through software checkboxes etc. and not being entirely sure 100% of what just took place inside my code.
I had not even started building my game yet, and the directory for my new project was over 200MB with all of the muck that came along with the initial 'new project' setup. Ouch. I've been working on my current Torque project for a month and a half, developing and adding art assets, and the whole sha-bang is sitting at under 30MB right now. That's with randomly generated terrain, tiles, characters, critters, npc's, foliage, clouds, you name it. Just wow, Torque for life!
12/31/2013 (12:55 am)
@Richard: I just wanted to drop in and give you a much deserved "Thank You!" As I've been progressing, learning the ins and outs of the engine, many of your postings on the boards have shed light on some of my confusion. As a matter of fact, I'm going to be giving a very thorough look at your inventory module this very day! Torque and GUI
As a newcomer to Torque, there did come a time when I was faced with the ultimate decision of whether or not I should stick with T2D or move on to a GUI-based engine. I may be the exception rather than the rule (I'm fairly stubborn) but in the end I was able to see the power of Torque hidden away behind the fact that there is no GUI. It was just this small 'barrier', the fact that there were no GUI tools on first examination of the engine, that nearly cast the illusion on me that T2D was in some way inferior to other options.
I'm here to say that it's not. With Torque, you can do almost whatever you please with the premade templates of nearly every scenario you can think of that comes with the Sandbox. Once that's solid, the sky's the limit because you have the source and you can just recompile a new solution if you need additional functionality!
What About Other Engines?
I did go so far as to venture off and try a copy of Unity, for example. While at first glance it was nice to click little checkboxes and move my window panels, I was finding that I had to learn little discrepancies within the engine and software all over again. Also everything that I was able to do there I could already do with Torque, but with Torque I could do it directly with a text file instead of digging through software checkboxes etc. and not being entirely sure 100% of what just took place inside my code.
I had not even started building my game yet, and the directory for my new project was over 200MB with all of the muck that came along with the initial 'new project' setup. Ouch. I've been working on my current Torque project for a month and a half, developing and adding art assets, and the whole sha-bang is sitting at under 30MB right now. That's with randomly generated terrain, tiles, characters, critters, npc's, foliage, clouds, you name it. Just wow, Torque for life!
#11
And most of the 2D point and click engines contain the same logic as coding. You set your if then loop, you can then add multiple nested if then loops. I have an ammoclip and ammototal global variables, and use if statements to determine when to reload the ammo in the clip. The only difference being that I can do this without needing to code. I can still used formulas.
But yes Torque 2D is a better system for someone who wants to tinker and get down and dirty with the code.
12/31/2013 (6:56 pm)
True to all that, never thought that Torque was inferior just that it has a much larger learning curve due to having no GUI. I personally am not interested in coding from scratch. Don't get me wrong. I don't mind the idea of learning code to enhance what already exists.And most of the 2D point and click engines contain the same logic as coding. You set your if then loop, you can then add multiple nested if then loops. I have an ammoclip and ammototal global variables, and use if statements to determine when to reload the ammo in the clip. The only difference being that I can do this without needing to code. I can still used formulas.
But yes Torque 2D is a better system for someone who wants to tinker and get down and dirty with the code.
#12
And the GUI editor is not a level editor - which would be very useful. That will take a bit more work because I don't have anything this side of the MIT divide to port from. It will also require something along the lines of 3SS' Asset Library, but smaller and tucked into a side panel like the old TGB setup. which means asset importers and editors to set up sprites, animations, sounds and more. If I skip the asset editors and just rely on that old assetGen.cs script I suppose I could throw a dump of the asset library into a scroll control....
Anyway, there is a ton and a half of work to do if we want to build a level editor - and that assumes that everyone wants their levels built the same way....
01/01/2014 (12:54 am)
Yes, the learning curve is steep - and steeper since going MIT. I don't think anyone here would argue that.And the GUI editor is not a level editor - which would be very useful. That will take a bit more work because I don't have anything this side of the MIT divide to port from. It will also require something along the lines of 3SS' Asset Library, but smaller and tucked into a side panel like the old TGB setup. which means asset importers and editors to set up sprites, animations, sounds and more. If I skip the asset editors and just rely on that old assetGen.cs script I suppose I could throw a dump of the asset library into a scroll control....
Anyway, there is a ton and a half of work to do if we want to build a level editor - and that assumes that everyone wants their levels built the same way....
Associate Mike Lilligreen
Retired T2Der
Torque 2D does not have a visual editor suite like Torque Game Builder did. Too many things changed in the core engine to allow the old editors to work with the open source version.
Best place for current tutorials is on the Github wiki.