Some good TGE-specific resources on the web?

#1 Well I know that TGE can do pretty decent images here are some GOLDEN OLDIES from a game I was working on in TGE 1.5.2 (with the Modernization Kit added);
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Good luck and I hope you have fun.

Ron

#2 Very nice! See? Those look great!

"Old Technology" or no, I still think TGE can look great, with some good art assets and clever, creative use of the engine's features.

Regarding my search for a resource for TGE, I did find a channel on YT that seems to have a series of videos to follow (I swear it sounds like Jason Busby from 3Dbuzz.com... maybe it is?).

That seems to be a good start, at least.

I think I still have my 3D Programming All In One book around here somewhere. I forget what version of TGE it's based on, but I'm sure much of it is still relevant. Should pick that up perhaps.

#3 Glad you like them. I should go back and finish what I started. I gave up after Red Dead came out because... well, they were light years ahead of me. Heck, the saloon has breakable windows and swinging doors and such. Also, I believe TDN has a number of TGE specific tutorials still active. I recall using a ton of them. Also, let me know if you need something specific, I am a bit of a pack rat so I never throw out anything.... these screen shots were taken today... I still have all the source code and additions etc. Happy to help.

Ron

#4 Nice, will keep that in mind, thanks!

Question for ya... what software do you use for your modeling?

I use Blender3D, but my understanding is it's difficult to find an exporter for the newer versions of Blender that are still compatible with the DTS format used by TGE.. or maybe I'm mistaken in that?

I've considered maybe picking up Milkshape and using that as a sorta "go-between" to export if I can't do it from Blender directly...

#5 I would highly recommend MilkShape. Blender is good but, like you said... the older DTS exporters were not maintained. I use 3D Max for everything. HOWEVER, most of the buildings and such in the screenshots, I used good old fashion Constructor. It's buggy at times but, it works and was designed for TGE. Also, you do NOT need to use it exclusively for buildings. I made some of the barrels and crates using it. Again, I will look around in my archive and see what I have laying around. Chances are I have an older blender exporter that will work.... along side an older version of blender of course.

Ron

#6 Nice. Okay will grab Constructor, too. I forgot to dl that earlier.

I remember I'd gotten pretty used to using Constructor at one point, and actually *have* a registered copy of Milkshape... somewhere lol. No idea where it's backed up to since I have about a million backup CDs. Could probably just as well buy it again.

That would be great if you still have the old exporters around. Although, again, I could always do the modeling in Blender, import into MS3D and export from there as well.

#7 Yep, Sounds like a plan. Let me dig about a bit. I too have dozens of backup drives and cds too so I will need to locate things. I got data going back to 2000 actually so... it may take a bit ;-)

I like the fact that you see the value in the older systems. I LOVED TGE and I could pretty much pull off anything I wanted to in it. I only merged to T3D when it became the 'standard' here at GG. Again, I will pass along what I find to you. If you get a chance, email me at kapaun01 at gmail dot com. That way I can link you through my DropBox. Far easier to pass along files. I also need to ask, do you have a license for 1.5.2? (Gotta keep things legal ya know. I see by your profile that you are probably good on it but, I want to ask anyway.) That way too, if you want to upgrade to the Mod Kit I can send you my build.

Ron

#8 Cool!

Yep, I'm licensed for TGE, TGEA and even a content pack and the lighting kit!

Yeah I'm working out the basics/pre-prod. stuff on a smaller-scale multiplayer project I'd like to put together.

Two things I'm facing right now:
1. Dealing with how to create a detail map that is homogeneous enough to work for a variety of ground in a given zone (so I don't have dirt with a grass detail texture over it, etc).
2. How to do good dungeons, as - if I'm not mistaken - TGE doesn't play very well with polysoup meshes as tunnel segments, and I'd like to have some kind of subterranean caves/tunnels. Perhaps I can fake it somehow. I have some ideas of how to work around it. Need to test them out.

Can anyone indicate if the information in the "3D Programming All In One" book by Ken Finney is still applicable to TGE 1.5.2? The Torque-Script and such?

As a side-topic...

I was thinking back to your remark about appreciating the older tech, and I notice that - as much as I'm impressed by newer graphics technology and what it can do - aesthetically, I'm always far more impressed to see what people have accomplished with older, more limited tech. I love to see what talented artists and designers can pull out of technology that could rightfully be considered "archaic" by modern standards, and still make it look great.

Take these screenshots from Lineage 2 for example:
Sample 1
Sample 2
Sample 3

All these screenshots (and many more) are taken of a game that's built on 10+ year old tech (Unreal Engine 2 - with some enhancements made by NCSoft). For my money, and to my eyes, I think the game still looks great. Thing is a *lot* of the game's look/style is due to detailed, quality texture art. Also, Unreal Engine 2 and, consequently, L2, still made pretty significant use of BSP technology, which would be analogous to DIFs in TGE. Still, the game looks great, largely due to the talent of NCSoft's designers and artists.

Now, I might be completely off my rocker here, but I don't see why something couldn't be created in TGE that at least *approaches* that quality, if not match it. Given the time, the creativity and the understanding of how to work around TGE's limitations, I think it's very do-able. Not by me necessarily lol.. I'm not that good. But certainly by people with comparable skills.

I'm also a big fan of a "local" to Garage Games, Todd Pickens of shapesandlines.com. He has done some fantastic work for his content packs. The farmland set one is one of my favorite. Tim Aste also has done some really solid work with it.

I think that's what attracts me to using TGE even after so many others have "moved on". The limitations it presents (by today's standards), present an opportunity (and challenge) to create something beautiful despite them.

But anyway... I digress from my own topic lol...

#9 For interiors, I use a program called
Quark, I think it is better than Constructor, and the only problem I have with it is that the arches are missing some texture definitions when processed. (I would say compiled, but I am not sure that is the proper term, as the Quark program saves the the files in a .map file and then uses the maptodif program to turn the .map files into a .dif file)

i recently cam across a program called Trenchbroom that does the same thing (level creation, that is) but I have not tried it out as yet.

There is also SkecthUp, and though it is not TGE specific, it is possible to use the free version to save the files in the Collada format, then use programs such as Ultimate Unwrap to convert the collada files into .dif files.

#10 I've actually tried QuARK in the past, a few times. I just can't become a fan of it. The interface drives me nuts, and all the steps just to get it set up to work with any given engine (setting up the paths for the build programs, etc) gives me a headache.

What I like about Constructor is that it's created with the same technology it's designed for, and supports it natively with no need to mess with exporters or converters. It's quirky, but more intuitive (to me anyway).

I also like that I know whatever I make in Constructor is going to be to scale (especially with the ability to place the orc character right into the editor), and that textures will line up, etc.

The only thing better would be if it was built directly into TGE/TGEA so the export wasn't even necessary and builds/edits can be done in a more "live/final" environment (they have something kinda like this in T3D, but I'm not really a fan of the way it's setup, and it's intended as a mock-up tool, and not so much for production). But it's close enough.

Constructor's texturing controls are a little weird to me, and sometimes the transform widget acts a little funky, but overall it's a straight-forward enough program.

I was also considering Deled3D, which is a pretty powerful program. However, its DIF exporter isn't currently available, and who knows how long it'll be until it is. So, no point in waiting around for that.

#11 I think Constructor's main problem is that the whole thing is written in torquescript - talk to Dave Wyand, he still has nightmares about it....

So, to expand on Mike's statement "The only thing better would be if it was built directly into TGE/TGEA," I think it wouldn't be impossible. It might not even be that hard - now I have something else to put on my plate.

#12 The TGE section of the docs are still around, just very easily overlooked since the doc home landing page doesn't have a big pretty icon for it. The TGE landing page can be accessed by clicking the TGE tab of the doc landing pages.

Also, you can filter the Resources section by engine. Now this will only give you the resources that are specifically tagged for TGE, but it can help filter out some of the noise.

#13 @Richard: I swear I didn't mean to increase your workload!
At the same time... don't let me discourage you if you really wanna integrate it directly.. Follow your bliss, and all that jazz :p.

Seriously, though... Regarding the bit about how it's made completely in TorqueScript and was a nightmare, etc. Well, as a non-programmer, I guess I'm lucky in that how it's made, or how it works means very little to me. All that programming stuff is some kind of esoteric voodoo magic as far as I'm concerned. The only part of it that I see is the end result, and if that does what I need it to, then life is good.

Though, I am curious about another possible option... 3DWorld Studio from Leadwerks. Josh seems to have removed it from the main Leadwerks site, but they still sell it at The Game Creators site. I'd used Cartography Shop "back in the day" and really liked it. It was straight forward and quite intuitive to use (if a bit buggy). I'm sure 3DWorld Studio is about the same, I'm just not sure of the DIFF exporter it comes with, if the compatibility is there.

@Scott
I did actually stumble upon that (the TGE section). I don't remember what I was looking for at the time, but it was an unfinished section. I accidentally closed the tab and then couldn't find it again lol. I'll have to track it down and make sure to Bookmark it this time.

#14 To follow up on my previous post, and to continue with my original post, I'm still having a really difficult time finding any good, hands-on, practical instructions or tutorials on how to use many of the features in TGE.

Edit: Meh... I'll just figure it out, find what I can, and ask questions when nothing else is working..

In the meantime..

Here's a screenshot of my doings so far. I'm working on learing/re-learning the tools in TGE (learning their quirks, etc), and have started creating a kind of prototype/mockup scene that will eventually become the basis for my first full zone, a forest/woodsy area.

All the ground textures, including detail are my own (I work from photo-sourced images, either my own (I live in upstate NY, so plenty to draw from!), or images I find on the web, which I then edit and such to suit my needs.

I took the water texture that comes with TGE and created a darker more green-ish look. It's not the final look I'm gonna use. I just have to start working on how to create a believable, or at least passable, water texture. The skybox is default.

Next up is boulders, shrubs, trees and the like to start filling it in.

I'm pretty happy with how it's coming along. I think I've hit a nice balance between the dirt, grass/moss and stone so far. Just looks too barren yet.

Anyhoo.. here's the image...


(click for full size)

#15 Mike,

I know this will be quote unpopular end quote, but as far as 'functions' (other than shaders and materials and fancy lighting) there really is not a whole bunch of changes between TGE and T3D. Granted there are a number of 'basic use/menu navigation' changes but, overall the editors work 'basically' the same. In fact, thanks to your posts, I have been reworking a number of my assets to TGE.... it's just a fun little project.

Ron

#16 For tge, I use Deled with the torque exporter pluggin. It's not perfect, but works.
I don't have any tutorials, but at 3dcentral.net I have a bunch of resources made for tge. (in the downloads section. no registration required)

#17 I don't remember TGE having that shore foam effect - did you add it? It looks pretty good.

#18 @Ron:
I don't know what it is about T3D, I just can't get to like it. I can see the aspects that are basically the same, just presented differently. I love a lot of what it offers, but other aspects of it just continue to elude me, like the terrain texturing for example. I can not get it to look good, no matter what I do.

I think TGE/TGEA just feel like a "comfortable pair of old shoes"; they definitely show their age, but they fit well and work great. I find it really appealing working within TGE/TGEA's "restrictions", as I talked about (rather verbosely lol) earlier in the thread.

@Mike: You have the exporter for Deled? They don't have it available on the official website now for some reason. I was considering giving Deled a try. I'm having problems with the DIFs created by Constructor - surfaces keep randomly disappearing, and even replacing the offending brush with a new one doesn't fix it; a different surface disappears instead.

Here's a shot of what keeps happening now.. Surfaces of the DIF will just keep disappearing. Fixing it in one spot will just cause it to happen in another. Just for clarification, there's no roof on the building here (still working on how I want that to look), and you can see the walls look really 'thin', which is because I'm using a null texture on the tops. The large portion of floor, however, should be there. I can run over it. The face just isn't showing.

Anyway, is there somewhere I can still download that DIF exporter for Deled? Thanks :)

@Richard:
That's a shore effect that comes native in TGE (I don't think it's there in TGEA); you can set the texture and the maximum depth it'll appear to. In that shot, I'm actually just using the cloud texture from the skybox (didn't have anything else that would work as water foam, and it seems to do the trick).

I've moved over to TGEA, just for the extra features it gives you (shader support is nice as I have plans for areas where emissive surfaces will be handy, etc). The better support for polysoup models is a major +++ for me. Otherwise, for what I will be doing with it (I'm not a programmer), it's basically the same as using TGE, just with some more features.

Although, I'm kinda wondering what the wisdom is of sticking with TGE/TGEA. As much as I love working with them, the reality is there's no more official support for them, and to proceed with any kind of formal project would require me to find people who already have a license, since new ones can't be bought anymore. So there'd likely be a wall I'd be hitting at some point. I might just continue to use it as a prototyping tool. Shame things went the way they did. Would be great to see GG be able to release them as MIT as well.

#19 @Mike Rowley,

I have the same problem as Mike Vogel. Where did you get the exporter from?

#20 www.delgine.com/plugins/viewPluginCategory.php?catid=40&catdesc=Exporters From there. On the front page of the website, just click on "pluggins" and the "exporters".