Wild Idea: Merging T3D and T2D
by Demolishun · in General Discussion · 08/11/2013 (6:51 pm) · 4 replies
Okay, this is probably going to be a sensitive subject, but the conversation could bear some good fruit.
What if we thought about merging from T3D to T2D?
There are some reasons why it might be a good idea:
I have no allusions. This would be a pain in the arse. The entire focus of both engines would have to be rethought from the ground up. There would be much wailing and grinding of teeth, but as the demons are exorcised from the code bases great rejoicing would be had. We may even find that there is less merging and just end up sharing of specific pieces of code as common.
I know while I concentrate on T3D I really have spent very little to no time on T2D (though I am interested). It would be nice to find some common place we could start merging features and possibly working toward a total merge. I figure it will not be too long before mobile apps start wanting more 3D features in games. So this kind of work would definitely be in the interest of everyone here regardless if your focus in on 2D or 3D. Mobile game networking is probably another area that would be an excellent benefit to T2D. I know that a lot of the great low level work done in T2D would benefit T3D as well. I would like to see an editor system that works for both engines. The idea of a modular editor system that Mich was proposing was an excellent idea. I saw potential in T3D for that editor just as much as I saw it for T2D. BTW, I have just started messing with the T3D editor and had no idea there was a plugin system for it. I was happily surprised.
Lets try and be positive about the idea of such a merging. Lets see if any ideas popup that would benefit both code bases in either short term or long term. I am hoping we find some ideas that would be realizable in the short term that would affect the potential of both engines in a positive way, not just from a merge.
What benefits would you see to your efforts based upon the now existing features of each engine?
How would having a fully fledged 3D and 2D engine at your disposal affect the way you design games?
What if we thought about merging from T3D to T2D?
There are some reasons why it might be a good idea:
- It would combine the development efforts of the now split community: T3D and T2D.
- It would force analyzing of pieces of the engines that are now being overlooked due to man power, people having a life outside GG, and lets face it: technical competency (I think I understand like 5% of how the T3D engine works).
- The positive features of each engine would definitely benefit both engines.
- T2D would get networking, 3 space widgets, and more shader support.
- T3D would get TAML, 2D capabilities, and potentially reduced reliance on script code base.
- T2D is already pretty much a client and adding back in the server could be done in such a way as to maintain a pure client and pure server with separated scripting and C++.
- T3D would gain more platform support.
- OpenGL support and DX11 support could be addressed for both engines at once.
I have no allusions. This would be a pain in the arse. The entire focus of both engines would have to be rethought from the ground up. There would be much wailing and grinding of teeth, but as the demons are exorcised from the code bases great rejoicing would be had. We may even find that there is less merging and just end up sharing of specific pieces of code as common.
I know while I concentrate on T3D I really have spent very little to no time on T2D (though I am interested). It would be nice to find some common place we could start merging features and possibly working toward a total merge. I figure it will not be too long before mobile apps start wanting more 3D features in games. So this kind of work would definitely be in the interest of everyone here regardless if your focus in on 2D or 3D. Mobile game networking is probably another area that would be an excellent benefit to T2D. I know that a lot of the great low level work done in T2D would benefit T3D as well. I would like to see an editor system that works for both engines. The idea of a modular editor system that Mich was proposing was an excellent idea. I saw potential in T3D for that editor just as much as I saw it for T2D. BTW, I have just started messing with the T3D editor and had no idea there was a plugin system for it. I was happily surprised.
Lets try and be positive about the idea of such a merging. Lets see if any ideas popup that would benefit both code bases in either short term or long term. I am hoping we find some ideas that would be realizable in the short term that would affect the potential of both engines in a positive way, not just from a merge.
What benefits would you see to your efforts based upon the now existing features of each engine?
How would having a fully fledged 3D and 2D engine at your disposal affect the way you design games?
About the author
I love programming, I love programming things that go click, whirr, boom. For organized T3D Links visit: http://demolishun.com/?page_id=67
#2
I've been wanting to have a 2D mini-game as part of my 3D game for a while now. I would also like to have 2D cutscene-like scenarios in this 3D game, with player interaction as a key mechanic (mostly dialogue), as well as puzzles as a part of this mechanic.
However, I also believe this is all possible within a 3D environment (2D billboards and sprites) and so I'm not overly concerned with the potential of a merger. It would be super cool though!
08/11/2013 (11:00 pm)
Quote:"I'd be curious to see what an actual project which requires this merging of functionalities would look like."
I've been wanting to have a 2D mini-game as part of my 3D game for a while now. I would also like to have 2D cutscene-like scenarios in this 3D game, with player interaction as a key mechanic (mostly dialogue), as well as puzzles as a part of this mechanic.
However, I also believe this is all possible within a 3D environment (2D billboards and sprites) and so I'm not overly concerned with the potential of a merger. It would be super cool though!
#3
I think Dan hit one very important nail and that is mini games. I know I have loved playing games that include little mini games as a distraction. It would be dang cool to go into a casino in a 3d game and click a table and it goes into a high stakes poker mini game that the 2d engine would make practically trivial. Another cool feature would be map overlays that have animated 2d widgets and the like. All the sprite features of T2D would make that pretty simple.
Great thinking people. Lets keep this going to see what lurks in the dark recesses of our indie brains! Mmmmm...brains... (I am totally identifying with eh Sylar character from Heroes...is a totally sick and twisted way...;) I have always known "how things work"...well mostly.)
08/12/2013 (1:00 pm)
Quote:I do believe that as the systems get more stable and tested, we will start seeing a lot more cross-pollination across engines and a 'merger' might become conceivable at that time.That is where my mind was when I thought about this. Cross pollination would definitely bring the community together and we would focus on critical pieces of the engines that are shared and could be shared.
Quote:Such a hybrid engine would be a cool toy for sure but I'd be curious to see what an actual project which requires this merging of functionalities would look like. Show me one project which would benefit from such a merger.Excellent points. That is part of the reason for this post to get people's gears grinding on what they "could" do.
I think Dan hit one very important nail and that is mini games. I know I have loved playing games that include little mini games as a distraction. It would be dang cool to go into a casino in a 3d game and click a table and it goes into a high stakes poker mini game that the 2d engine would make practically trivial. Another cool feature would be map overlays that have animated 2d widgets and the like. All the sprite features of T2D would make that pretty simple.
Great thinking people. Lets keep this going to see what lurks in the dark recesses of our indie brains! Mmmmm...brains... (I am totally identifying with eh Sylar character from Heroes...is a totally sick and twisted way...;) I have always known "how things work"...well mostly.)
#4
08/12/2013 (2:59 pm)
I can't really see the engines being merged completely any time soon, and I'm not sure if that's entirely desirable - but I'd definitely like to see them sharing more core modules. Stuff like TAML could be split out, used by both engines, and updated independently of each. Same with networking, maybe - like the TNL ages ago. 
Associate Simon Love
On one hand, I think if you're looking to create a performance-heavy 2d game, the first thing you'd do is disable most of the 3d engine functionality, maybe keep a few of the niceties (materials) but ditch 95% of them.
On the other hand, In a full 3d game, the T2D portion of this hybrid would basically boil down to animating dynamic-textures, maybe UI stuff.
And if you want to make a 3d game with a 2d perspective, then no need for T2D at all!
Such a hybrid engine would be a cool toy for sure but I'd be curious to see what an actual project which requires this merging of functionalities would look like. Show me one project which would benefit from such a merger.
As for what we can bring from T2D to T3D and vice-versa, of course a unified asset system would be cool, advanced materials, multiplatform support, Torque real-time multiplayer and so on are all nice to have but it's not drag-and-drop from one engine to the other, far from it.
I do believe that as the systems get more stable and tested, we will start seeing a lot more cross-pollination across engines and a 'merger' might become conceivable at that time.