A slightly unfortunate attitude....

#61 @Jeff
well if that's the issue, then I can release a simple way of handling this when I get internet again on Friday.
it won't have the flexibility of actuall learning git but it will work for simple pull requests.

edit: I'm not the type that waits for a response, I will have a "pull request for dummies" solution posted on the blogs by Friday. I've already made it but I won't have an internet connection besides my phone before Friday sigh.
anw it should be a very simple solution solely for creating pull requests.

#62 So it's been a while since I've been here and checked up on GG or torque. Life happens, however this was the last thing I expected to see. Torque going open source. sigh.

Torque 3D Professional 07/06/2011 (7:49 pm)
Torque X 3D Beta 12/13/2008 (8:07 am)
Torque X 2009 08/09/2008 (12:37 pm)
Torque Constructor 04/09/2007 (10:25 am)
Torsion 03/09/2007 (7:57 am)
Torque Game Engine Advanced 11/06/2006 (10:49 am)
Torque Game Engine 1.4.2 11/06/2006 (9:16 am)
Aste Combo Pack 1 11/04/2006 (12:18 pm)
FPS Environment Pack 11/04/2006 (12:18 pm
RTS Environment Pack 11/04/2006 (12:18 pm)
Torque ShowTool Pro 11/04/2006 (12:18 pm)
Torque Game Engine 11/04/2006 (12:18 pm)

The above list is the items I've either bought or gotten as a licensee.. what a waste..

I will say this however in response to the OP's post:

I've been developing for approx. 30 years, since I was 15 using basicA, GWBasic, c\c++ etc.. One thing that I've never seen, is an organized, optimized open source project succeeding. Look at Java. OpenGL. Even Linux. How *long* did it take those projects to come to fruition? How *long* does it take them to obtain consensus about a standard or release?

even though those projects are still around and still living, they are by no means the defacto standard on anything, and I consider them to be successes, at least for now. Java struggles to maintain any kind of real market share, because well, because it's java lol. OpenGL is cool, but it's no where near being a fully mature API compared to DirectX. Linux is and continues to be bastardized by the companies that want to make a few bucks off of the folks developing it. Redhat anyone?

The point to my diatribe is simply this: While open source sounds good and looks good on paper, in practicality it almost never works properly because there usually isn't a *long term* incentive to act as a motivator, and by motivator I mean something that provides something for someone's self interest. Oh sure, you'll get folks that will contribute here and there when their real lives don't conflict, and as long as they aren't bored or something else comes up to catch their fancy.

Factor in a "council" or "group" or "committee", and what you end up with is a few diehards fixing everything for the masses for free with little or no payoff. If I submit a change that fixes something but is dependent on another's fix to work properly, but that person doesn't provide a decent solution or it's voted down, then neither fix goes in thus elongating the amount of time between releases.

Don't even get me started on developer turn over, code refactorings needed because everyone has different styles and solutions to problems created by other folks contributions.

At least when I pay for code, the devs are getting paid (motivation) and there are checks and balances as well as responsibility and accountability as a company.

How exactly are you guys going to force folks to adhere to any kind of "enforceable" timeline so that all can benefit from the changes? Answer? you can't. Are folks going to pull and check in code as a living repository? nightmare. Being on the committee going through other's code all day to make sure it's quality? another nightmare.

no offense to the masses, but, sure you have the code but now what? The point, at least for me was to *not* have to spend all my time writing an engine and fixing it's bugs. Been there, done that.

IMHO all GG did was to consign this once cool product and community to a slow painful death.

It's a shame and it's a sad day for me.

Good luck folks, I truly wish you all well.

#63

Quote:The above list is the items I've either bought or gotten as a licensee.. what a waste..

Ive seen this comment more than once, and it doesn't sound less stupid the more I hear it.

If the products area waste of money they were a waste when paid for, not now it suddenly goes open source.

It could be argued that Torque3d was borderline doomed when it became evident that IAC started to not give a damn about the users and community. Some of su bought the prodict when it was at is highest IAC price, why? because it was worth it at that price, i'd argue that it is not far from worth it again now, tho personally one would have to make hard choices between unity and Torque now if torque was $1000 again, but torque would still be a valid choice for some devs.

Would i prefer that torque was modified, updated and managed by a commercial entity that had a vested interest in the profitability of the product, yes, I'm sure i would. By the same token, some years ago the folks at IAC stopped caring and stopped improving the engine anyway, even tho it was a highly priced commercial entity, so we were at the worst point of the torque path.

When Eric Graham took over and bought the IP from IAC we all had high hopes, but IAC had so thoroughly destroyed the torque name that eve the revival of garagegames was not enough, but they did work and they did update/upgrade and bug fix the old IAC engine, abd Torque3D 1.2 was released as a solid stable engine back again to its $100 price tag, again personally i think that was maybe too cheap, perhaps $250 or even more might have been better, might have generated enough money for a dedicated team to work on it longer, we are into speculation territory now, but who knows right?

In any event, work pretty much stopped on T3D, not enough money to pay the devs, options to mee seemed to be either stop selling it entirely or release it as some form of OSS, and MIT or BSD seemed the best options since i have a rabid hatred of the GPL series. Either way, the facts are simple, Torque3d had reached the end of its commercial development, if IT works and churns out a decently improved engine because of the community so be it, it has a higher chance of achieving this than i did being shelved and ignored.

I supported all 3 companies developing Torque, and the only one I'm angry with is IAC, and while I didn't want the MIT version and wanted the continuation of a commercial product, i will accept the MIT version over and above a dead and unsupported version. I do still remain mildly sceptical of the MIT version for all the reasons I've posted in the past, but we will wait and see, but at no point do i consider my money wasted, if the engines weren't worth what i paid, i wouldn't have paid, if i had waited 6, 7, 8 years for the engine to be free i wouldn't have learned what i have done up to now either.

#64 At a technical level, both Torque 3D and Torque 2D are better now than they were when they were being sold. More bug fixes, more features, better stability, improved performance, etc. Don't forget, a lot of great community contributions made it into both engines in the past. People would post threads or resources with enhancements and bug fixes, which would be consumed into the official product.

Those community contributions were voluntary, with no reimbursement except for appreciation and credit. That has not changed. I think what can really be improved is the actual process for contributing. I still see a lot of complaints about the complexity of git and the hoops introduced by GitHub. The steering committees, with the help of the rest of the users, can create some simple docs and processes that will make it easy for someone to drop in improvements. Heck, someone could post a resource on this site and another person could create a pull request out of it.

The point is, no one is saying Torque exists to be improved for the sake of improving it. Both engines exist to be used by people to make games. They are both capable and solid enough to do that. What is being brought up is how to organize and encourage contributors. If you wish to improve the engines, GREAT! Let the committees know how they can make that as easy as possible. If you just want to use the engines for your own project, go right ahead. Show us your progress and get accolades.

#65 @Scott

So I guess you would not call Ogre3D a success either?
Blender is not a success either?
Gimp is not a success either?

You sure has a funny way of deciding what success is. Many Open Source projects create revenue for users in form of writing books, teaching and even making games with them. Claiming anything else is wrong.

#66 Personally I just can't grasp the concept of someone not able to understand how git works -- which seems to be the number one excuse for lack of contributing. A 10 minute review of the commands and I was ready to go. I was opposed to it initially, but over time I've actually come to view it as a lot more flexible and easier to use than SVN.

Despite there being nothing special needed to use Torque with git I had assembled a Torque specific how to guide, but with it being lost I now find it hard to have enough motivation to expend that effort once again. To be honest it was so dumbed down in application that I was personally offended at just how condescending it was to noobs ;)

#67

Quote:Ive seen this comment more than once, and it doesn't sound less stupid the more I hear it.

sigh. ok, wrap your head around this: some of the licenses I bought, were on the *promise* of features never realized. I based my purchases on the cost of early adopter to get a good price thinking that a feature that was intended to be implemented. so yeah, i'll eat that one, however your sarcastic attitude isn't warranted.

Quote:At a technical level, both Torque 3D and Torque 2D are better now than they were when they were being sold. More bug fixes, more features, better stability, improved performance, etc. Don't forget, a lot of great community contributions made it into both engines in the past

you're right. a lot of the those contributions were to cover the shortcomings of the engine that we all wanted or needed, or that were promised and pushed back or dropped. that being said however, I didn't buy a licenses to fix the engines.

Quote:So I guess you would not call Ogre3D a success either?
Blender is not a success either?
Gimp is not a success either?

not really to be honest. over the years I've used and contributed to several open source projects, jet3d, genesis, truevision3d etc etc. they all have one thing in common. they never lasted the test of time. folks got bored, something better came out or they just simply moved on. secondarily, most of the open source stuff is usually linked with other open source stuff and they all have varying licences. some actually end up being bought and privatized thus it's usage either has to be paid for or find another alternative, which in the meantime breaks the project or is on indefinite hold while doing so.

not to mention the utter pita to find, download the correct versions of the usually long listed set of dependencies needed to get it running.

if this was just a venture in teaching me how to develop games in general, *with that aim*, that'd be one thing, but the torque books are directed at *torque* specifically. great. so I know it's rendering pipeline, which will be completely different in another engine say bioware or trinigy for example.

I am *not* a fan of open source. In my experience, I've found open source to be 'just good enough' and never excellent. Oh sure, it possibly starts out that way, but as folks lose interest, one of the first things out the window is standards, architecture and just plain quality. as a dev lead and architect myself I've found that if there are no peer or code reviews, hacks, kludges and lazy code make for some extremely hard to deal with bugs. and that's working in a company with *closed* source with an obligation to it's customers. you're telling me that someone that say has kids and a wife and a regular job is going to exhibit the *same* attention to detail and spend the same amount of time while doing it for free? just for the good of all mankind?

and btw dwarf, there are better applications out there than blender, gimp *and* ogre. i'll put 3ds, softimage (and others) up against blender any day. i'll throw unity at ogre. how can you call them successes? if *everyone* uses them then i'd be inclined to agree, but there are a lot of options out there. those just happen to be yours.

does open source have a place in the world imo? sure, but strictly as a reference for teaching. but even then, how do you overcome the specifics? for example: a book on ogre, while it might contain a bit of general wisdom, will be primarily focusing on how things happen in ogre.. if ogre goes the way of other open source projects, tell me, what good does knowing how ogre works with shader model 6 or 7 or whatever in the future?

ultimately, I feel I have a right to have my say. I paid my dues, I paid my licenses. relax.

#68 @Scott,
If you are getting off the bus then get off the bus. But please don't come crap on my lap because I decided to continue riding the bus. Some of us actually believe this is the best direction for the engine. It is also obvious that you are operating from a different set of information than we are, so lets leave it at that.

Good luck in all your endeavors.

#69 and who are you again?

thank you. good luck in yours.

#70 In to say keep it civil and stay on the topic.

#71 Please remain civil everyone or 2010 Scott might have to be let out of his cage. ;)

#72 was that some kind of oblique reference to me or..?

#73 No, that was reference to me back in 2010, when I banned quite a few community members for stepping out of line.

#74 really? the thinly veiled threat was necessary? sigh. I was on topic with my original post, albeit with some of my frustrations thrown in however it didn't warrant nor require some of the responses it got from the sidelines. it was directed at the OP (because I feel his pain) & GG.

no worries. i'm out. peace.

#75 The topic is about how to organize contributors and make the process work. The history of the engines and the debate over open source is not the topic. No need to go at each other.

#76 It was really more of a joke, but personal attacks were beginning to occur which is not being on topic.

#77 I am a:
"folk that will contribute here and there when my real life doesn't conflict"

I am also a freelance developer that gets paid to leverage open source solutions (Python, Apache, PHP, Javascript, CodeIgniter, and more) for my customers. Which, BTW, saves them a lot of money. In addition I am part owner of a robotics company that leverages open source to solve our critical technical issues. That has saved our company a lot of money as well. Especially Tiny Core Linux and Python.

There is some info here though not a whole lot on the robotics part:
www.demolishun.com
There you will find a link to Linkedin if you want to contact professionally.

Edit:
Did I screw up ...again...?

@Scott,
Again, good luck.

#78 "Personally I just can't grasp the concept of someone not able to understand how git works -- which seems to be the number one excuse for lack of contributing. A 10 minute review of the commands and I was ready to go. I was opposed to it initially, but over time I've actually come to view it as a lot more flexible and easier to use than SVN.

Despite there being nothing special needed to use Torque with git I had assembled a Torque specific how to guide, but with it being lost I now find it hard to have enough motivation to expend that effort once again. To be honest it was so dumbed down in application that I was personally offended at just how condescending it was to noobs ;)"

Feel free to be condecending, if that's how you think a cribsheet comes across. For myself, I use tortoisesvn daily, if not hourly, so the few times I've had something that's a pure fix, switching gears and hunting/trying to remember the different commands has thrown me off. (It's also why I'm personally more likely to throw code on the forums, or to others in irc if it's not a 100% stable, beaten to death via prototyping, and above all else game-agnostic tweak.)

#79 @Scott

You have your right to have your say, but Blender IS a huge success and used in many different business within entertainment. Ogre3D is used by several small studios who make fine games. Gimp is a very well know piece of software that are used by many professional photographers and visual graphic firms.

#80 Wow, things in this thread are really getting a tad hostile. I guess that is ok in the long run..... Since people can air their issues.

Here is my opinion on all of this topic (or whatever you want to call it). If I get 'banned' then oh well, I can still develop things and I will do exactly that. Just FYI, I will not name names, or personally insult or belittle ANYONE but, probably will tick off everyone.

Here is the TRUTH, as I see it: if you don't like the way T3D is going, Leave. Grab an engine that works for you, god knows there are enough out there. It's that simple. I don't care if Blender did this, or Ogre did that.... I am only worried about T3D, because it's MY engine. If your project HINGES on feature X, Y or Z then why are you here to begin with?

Yes, there are things about other game engines out there that can be viewed as 'better' but, trust me, I have used them all, and based on MY needs T3D fits ME. Don't care if it fits your needs, don't care if you think T3D 'needs feature X or Y'. It works for me. Here is a little personal gloating: This is because I am feel smart and I feel I have the skill to bend the engine to my will. If you don't... well, why are you here and not using a simpler or more 'feature rich' engine?

Here are a couple of the WTF things that make me CRINGE, and set off my angry button....

1. 'Well I spent a ton of money on this engine over the years...' Cry to some one that didn't. I don't care, and I am pretty sure there are any number of members that spent a lot of money that care less as well. I spent a ton of money on Torque products too. Hell, probably more than most over the years.

2. 'Well I need feature 'X' if my game is going to be a success!' So, make the engine do it. You have the freakin source. If you CAN'T do it then maybe you were not destined to be a game dev. If engine 'X' contains your feature 'out of the box' then why the hell didn't you go that way to begin with? I am a freakin ARTIST and I HAD to learn script and code to work with this F'in engine.

3. 'BLAH BLAH BLAH' did not get recognized for their work' Whatever... I am basically living off credit and whatever I can do to make ends meet. You feel ignored... So freakin what. All I hear over and over is: 'when will this be added to the source' or 'are you going to submit 'name your feature here' to the MIT build. Got news for you all... it won't be! I refuse to work for free anymore. If you want a feature that I create or make work, better be prepared to pay a small fee. I earned it. It's MY hard work (no CRAP... hours and hours, day in and day out, in front of these machines) that actually made my features possible or even work in the current and future builds of Torque. Even if my work is based on 'old work' that is public? Simple, then you just need to figure out how to fix it if you want it for free in your build. Not like it's not there for you.

In closing, I am fed up. I am nearly done with T3D and this community. I gave many people good stuff, solid products and a TON of knowledge. Yet, everyone wants it all for free. Well, maybe I and my products and knowledge base will move on! I am not a great loss to this community. I have NO delusions when it comes to my small purpose here. This is not a threat but, something I have seriously considered lately.

In the end, if this community can NOT get over this petty crap, we may as well toss in the towel and go the 'vapor-ware' route. Boils down to this simple thought: If you can help, then help. If not, then be patient (make requests but be aware your priorities are not everyone's)and take the time to learn to help. If you don't like T3D or the move GG made to open source, go find some thing that will make your dreams come true. Life is too short for this bull and I have a game engine to build.

So, there you have it. Ban me if you must. I just can't stand to see this community any more fragmented than it already is.

Ron