How should we promote T3D?

#41 thx Ron for the heads up, so that would mean a possible item for the v4 roadmap ;)

@Kory
and others, currently the main problem that leads ppl to overlook T3D is its history

i had some talks with ppl who used t3d in the past and switched over to unity and udk or other engines.
Now time passed and what i can say from those talks is just that ppl are not really aware of the features t3d has and (gonna get)
the best way to promote t3d is with completing games/ projects or even open srced demos.

Now we all know that everyone has more or less a own project or is working within a team on something -
it might be possible to pull out a rabbit if the community stands behind it but to be honest

the real stuff that is going to promote t3d as a game engine are the titles that are gonna be completed by the end of the year or 2014.
This is a realistic view when looking at Frozen Endzone.... and am sure there will be much more titles

and when ppl look at Frozen Endzone they can already understand that this is not just a FPS Engine.
with that being said - maybe it really would be best to get some sort of plan together for a couple of tiny demo games
am sure there is still room in the steering commitee wagon...

#42 The problem is you need to make it easy enough so people will have some visible results fast, so it will motivate them, but on the other hand, if you do too much for them, they will become frustrated, when they realize how hard it will be to be able to compete with the stuff that was already done.

#43 T3D must be, as any other product, renewed over time. To gain popularity, up-to-date eye candy I believe is crucial to draw the attention in the first place. If you look at Unity for example, everything from the UI, to the website, it's all made with a slick, somehow timeless design. Good looking screenshots and movies of cool games successfully produced or in development, are crucial to convince the studios and developers to choose this engine above others. Further could Torque and Garagegames need some rebranding. More and more designers are involved in the game sector. One somehow needs to identify with a brand to be able to trust and accept the negative aspects (that every product has, truly :) A brand that looks a bit outdated will give the impression that the products are outdated as well.

The price of using a particular engine is not the most important aspect to think about; if one need to invest more but manage to create a good looking solid game that runs like a charm on many platforms, the revenue can be much more attractive, regardless the high royalties. So T3D being 'free' doesn't necessarily mean it's the right choice in the eyes of developers.

Support is very important for studios and developers. PC and platform games are often huge projects that cost big amounts of time and so lots of money. Once committed to an engine, the whole development process must run quick & smooth; any hiccup is just losing more profit. So if there any issues with the engine, developers will need support from the engine creator. T3D being open source will not necessarily give the impression that support is something one can rely on. The T3D community is great, but that's my view because I'm already bound to T3D; and I see a bit of decline in the last year.

For newbies that want to try and/or learn about T3D, a quick solution is also very important. T3D's Desert Level is certainly not sufficient enough any more. If you look at the popularity (and success) of modding, I believe there's still much to gain for T3D. To be able to use existing worlds assets first and talk about royalties later if they ever manage to finish something worthy enough to sell; is something one could think of.

A personal opinion I have, is about the stability of T3D and the editor. Some parts (like the forest editor and mesh roads) still have issues after such a long time. During the development you don't want to run issues, because any issue will make concerns grow that these issues will also appear at the client after they bought the game. It's cool to add more features to the engine, but I believe the focus on bugs like we had after the release of 1.1, is still much important in my eyes. Before I 'shop' for software I always try look at forums (etc.) first to see if there are not too many issues reported by users.

Last but not least is clear and complete covering documentation crucial. T3D is, I believe, one of the most documented engines. This is a huge pro comparing to other engines. Getting all information swift & quick reduces the costs of development at lot. Yet, even after years, I'm still gathering needed information. Restructuring the documentation and improving search capabilities would lift T3D to a higher level.

All could be disregarded by pointing out that T3D is open source and a 'take it or leave it' approach is the lest expensive one; but I think that would be a mistake.

Hopefully you don't see this as criticism; I also have, like others here, something at stake after a few years of developing. While wrapping up for the 1st demo, I'll try to contribute some eye candy pretty soon.

#44 Is there any plan to "integrate" (or "package") GMK and/or Guide Bot(though this one is not at the time open-sourced) with T3D 3.0?

#45 @Akash

Ron has more or less lets say inofficialy confirmed
that there is work goin on regarding GMK integration
www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/133941/2#comment-843662

However there is no date or mention about it gettin into 3.0
but who knows...

#46 I think GMK is a great addition to T3D, and will really be a good basis to add the nice tools to allow better game making. Doors, lifts etc to be standardised.

I believe GuideBot maybe a bit buggy, I remember at first GMK and GuideBot had good support but it really died a long time ago and GuideBot was the worse off. But it would be the good basis for some better default AI.

#47 Hey guys,

It will NOT make 3.0 and it will NOT be a 100% addition/conversion. Mostly because by our charter, we are supposed to create a BASE engine. This means we don't cater to FPS or 3rd Person or MMO etc. So, some of the GMK things will not be 'stock'. This is because they cater to a particular style of game. Additionally, we have to confirm network compatibility etc.

This is not a lot of the content but, it is some of it. Currently, I am going over the whole thing and we (T3D Steering Committee) will work out what is right for the charter and what is not. I am aiming for the 4.0 release to include a huge chunk of it. Keep in mind, we have planned on 90 days between major releases.

Ron

#48 With the new module system in the project manager, it seems like lots of the functionality could be per-project optional!

#49 Actually, the Project Manager's module system isn't all that "new", it's just utilized a bit differently than before.

#50 There are a lot of interesting kits over the years and most just disappeared and became old dated. It would be nice to be able to find them and talk to the authors about getting it in MIT, maybe even community buyouts to get it standardised. This could be a way to really get more features and game genres in to the standard engine and to fill out those project modules.

Some that come to mind, is the Flying Example Kit I think it was for. Primarily made for TGE/TGEA. The FPS kit which made like a battlefield type of game with helicopters and tanks.

GMK is an example of them coming to us.

I remember thinking how cool it was when GG released the china town level because it added more real use content as an example. And I believe that was a really great boost to T3D. Ron's recent work for the demo of the Rift looks wonderful and I really want to develop with the Rift in mind even though I don't have a dev kit for it yet.

And I think it is clear that the Rift demos have really improved our PR.

#51

Quote:
maybe even community buyouts to get it standardised

I'd definitely chip in for anyone wanting to release games made with torque under MIT, as well and help out with porting if required. Especially when it comes to non FPS style games...get away from the stigma of torque = fps.

#52 I had a discussion about game objects with a friend of mine. One of the biggest issues I see is that some of the game objects are very heavy network, and feature wise. I came to the conclusion that I wanted to go below the networking level in objects and design a way to add networking to an object through scripting. So more of a component based system. This would help with client/server issues where someone does not want the networking component.

I am thinking making the game objects more modular would help with objects not being so focused on any one game type. Which in turn would help people create unique object types that fit the genre they are shooting for. At the same time we should NOT get rid of ANY of the existing object types. As is they are great for certain game types, have a ton of experience embedded in them, and are awesome for fast prototyping.

I think frustration with trying to understand how to modify a game object to suit your needs is part of some of the complaints about the engine. Not necessarily that perception that is is FPS only, but that tweaking an object outside that genre can results in hours of frustrating coding and testing. I think the attempt to make the wheeled vehicle operate like a wheel chair is a prime example of this. In my opinion the tweaking of values on a vehicle should not be so complex. I know this is a lack of understanding on my part about how the code actually operates, but that does not make it any less frustrating for someone that just wants "something with wheels" that does not fly into outer space because you tweaked the spring distance to small.

#53 Just added a GG RSS feed to my website to help promote the new stuff coming in: demolishun.com/

Yes, it was an excuse to finally get off my butt and fix my crappy website...

#54 Okay, if you want to promote T3D/T2D in a big way then work on a community project to build a "sandbox game" like Minecraft. I just got it this weekend and I am an instant addict. I can see elements of game play exemplified with no time wasted on visuals so they could get the game play right.

If T3D had a sandbox environment like this with simple objects that are accessible to the beginning game programmer/developer it would create a huge amount of interest. I am now rethinking my entire approach to a game I am working on as a result. I wanted this type of play, but I am going to purposely do very little on the visual side. Imagine if Minecraft had the shaders, the physics, etc of T3D with the same graphics? It would be amazing!

If people are interested lets start talking about a community project with T3D/T2D that enhances the sandbox concept. I would like to use T2D for a tile game with layers for 3D, and use T3D to make a sandbox like minecraft. This would greatly enhance both projects and many concepts could be shared. For instance a T3D sandbox could be used for a T2D game that is tiles. Since you can rotate the screen it could be very simulate except for an above view.

Anyway, share your thoughts on this concept. I want to start looking at the low level and see how many "cubes" could be supported in T3D. Zoning would be dirt simple! Everything fits in a square!

#55 There is already a game out there like minecraft and even made with Torque3D, Blockland.

#56 I don't want to make the game. I want to make the sandbox framework and have it as a community resource in the code base. It would be a boon to kids/adults wanting to make games and would be accessible artwork and concept wise.

#57 @Duion blockland, marble blast, ect. was torque game engine, not torque3D

#58 @Demolishun
that sandbox like functionality could be achieved with some of the gmk code

its all about easing the process as u said and with it u could achieve that.

...am sure u will understand its roots when u digg deeper
as its all about pick n place.

now ofc it is easier said then done but take for example the guys from the Trench Game
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/20929
they expanded the gmk code in their game to some kind of battlefield marmitage object(thats the name they r callin it)
thats just an visual example of the benefit of usin gmk

all in all some kind of module genre kit would be a great addition
and others could expand it learn from it or creat new genre modules.

#59 @J0linar,
Thanks for the heads up on GMK. I will look into that. Rag doll blocks FTW!

#60 There is a lot of minecraft clones coming out there, so better do something new or do it in a way that stands out of the others.