Is Torque 2D (T2D) Right For Me (And some questions...)
by Shane · in General Discussion · 03/09/2013 (6:18 pm) · 8 replies
Note: This is not necessarily T2D specific, so I did not place it in that forum. If an admin feels it is, then please feel free to move it.
EDIT/ADDED:
Tech specs:
I've been in the programming field for a few years now (although I've not quite done anything serious/intense). I learned* Java a couple of years ago. I'm a bit rusty as I haven't used it in awhile, but it's nothing that I can't pick back up fairly quickly. I've also recently started learning Objective-C and have been working on a few different apps for personal use (although I haven't got my feet wet with iOS).
I also have a small amount of experience with game engines/game creation. I used Unity3D for a school project awhile back. It was for a research class and was more along the lines of artificial intelligence than a game, though.
*I wouldn't quite say learned, as there's always something new or ways to improve. I guess it goes that way with all languages, though.
As a general rule of thumb, I always write down any app idea that ever pops into my head, onto my notepad. 99% of them I probably won't do anything about. Nevertheless, it's a good way to keep track of ideas I've had, ways to improve, and which apps are worth investing some time into.
I was thinking back into my childhood about this game I used to play by drawing on paper. It then struck me that it would make a great 2D game on either a computer (Windows/Mac) or a mobile device (in particular the iPhone/iPad/iOS).
I would like my idea to be more than a piece of writing/idea on a notepad. I believe it would work perfectly as a 2D game, and have no intentions of even venturing back into the world of 3D (although I suppose in theory it could be a side-scrolling based 3D game to look like 2D, but that's more trouble than it's worth).
Question: Is the new Torque 2D right for me?
There's always more ;)
The first thing I thought about after writing down the details of my game idea was which engine should I use. I have some experience with Unity3D, but the major thing with that is I'm limited to only Mac/Windows ports. I'm not in a situation to drop $399 assuming my game was ready to be published to iOS, as Unity charges. Unity3D is also not oriented towards 2D games (although I'm aware it's possible, yet a bit more complicated).
I'm very aware of GarageGames and the Torque franchise. I remember that Torque 2D used to cost $100 or so for an indie licensed. It now appears to be free and open source.
There's also other (some open-source/free, some not) game engines out there that may or may not accomplish what I want, that I don't know very much about. The biggest and most important thing is I want to target three platforms: Mac, Windows, and iOS (and *maybe* Android).
My idea is *very* simple. I'm not trying to create a MMO (or multiplayer at all, for that matter), I'm not trying to do fancy physics, graphics, or animations. I'm just trying to get my simple idea as a working prototype as fast as possible.
In fact, I believe my idea is so simple, that I'm strongly considering developing a Java game engine, tailoring it specifically to my game idea. The biggest downside I see with this though, is a) the time to create such a thing and b) porting to iOS/Android. However, by using Torque 2D, most of that will be relatively fast, depending on how I develop my idea.
What's the worst that could happen? I learn a some C++, sharpen my GIMP skills/creativity/knowledge, and make myself a better designer and programmer. It would also be a great learning experience.
Sorry if I have rambled on. I wanted to make sure to explain everything as precisely as possible.
Cheers,
Shane
EDIT/ADDED:
Tech specs:
- OS: Mac 10.8.2 (Mountain Lion).
- I'm decently familiar with Xcode.
- I'm reading through the T2D wiki and noticed that I may use Objective-C. This is a BIG plus to me.
Some Quick Info/Background About Me:
I've been in the programming field for a few years now (although I've not quite done anything serious/intense). I learned* Java a couple of years ago. I'm a bit rusty as I haven't used it in awhile, but it's nothing that I can't pick back up fairly quickly. I've also recently started learning Objective-C and have been working on a few different apps for personal use (although I haven't got my feet wet with iOS).
I also have a small amount of experience with game engines/game creation. I used Unity3D for a school project awhile back. It was for a research class and was more along the lines of artificial intelligence than a game, though.
*I wouldn't quite say learned, as there's always something new or ways to improve. I guess it goes that way with all languages, though.
Main Question/Statement
As a general rule of thumb, I always write down any app idea that ever pops into my head, onto my notepad. 99% of them I probably won't do anything about. Nevertheless, it's a good way to keep track of ideas I've had, ways to improve, and which apps are worth investing some time into.
I was thinking back into my childhood about this game I used to play by drawing on paper. It then struck me that it would make a great 2D game on either a computer (Windows/Mac) or a mobile device (in particular the iPhone/iPad/iOS).
I would like my idea to be more than a piece of writing/idea on a notepad. I believe it would work perfectly as a 2D game, and have no intentions of even venturing back into the world of 3D (although I suppose in theory it could be a side-scrolling based 3D game to look like 2D, but that's more trouble than it's worth).
Question: Is the new Torque 2D right for me?
But wait, there's more...
There's always more ;)
The first thing I thought about after writing down the details of my game idea was which engine should I use. I have some experience with Unity3D, but the major thing with that is I'm limited to only Mac/Windows ports. I'm not in a situation to drop $399 assuming my game was ready to be published to iOS, as Unity charges. Unity3D is also not oriented towards 2D games (although I'm aware it's possible, yet a bit more complicated).
I'm very aware of GarageGames and the Torque franchise. I remember that Torque 2D used to cost $100 or so for an indie licensed. It now appears to be free and open source.
- I read the licensing page for Torque 2D. Is it 100% free for commercial use (meaning, if I were to finish my game, I could publish it commercially with *NO* restrictions whatsoever)?
- Is there a splash screen (although I suppose this relates to above)?
- What's the deal with the "MIT Open Source"? Why was Torque 2D switched?
- I noticed there's a "beginner" and "professional" forum for Torque 2D. What's that about?
- What are the legal restrictions of using Torque 2D (the free/open-source version)?
- What are some necessary/important pieces of information that I should know about Torque 2D?
There's also other (some open-source/free, some not) game engines out there that may or may not accomplish what I want, that I don't know very much about. The biggest and most important thing is I want to target three platforms: Mac, Windows, and iOS (and *maybe* Android).
My idea is *very* simple. I'm not trying to create a MMO (or multiplayer at all, for that matter), I'm not trying to do fancy physics, graphics, or animations. I'm just trying to get my simple idea as a working prototype as fast as possible.
In fact, I believe my idea is so simple, that I'm strongly considering developing a Java game engine, tailoring it specifically to my game idea. The biggest downside I see with this though, is a) the time to create such a thing and b) porting to iOS/Android. However, by using Torque 2D, most of that will be relatively fast, depending on how I develop my idea.
Finally...
What's the worst that could happen? I learn a some C++, sharpen my GIMP skills/creativity/knowledge, and make myself a better designer and programmer. It would also be a great learning experience.
Sorry if I have rambled on. I wanted to make sure to explain everything as precisely as possible.
Cheers,
Shane
#2
I completed the video tutorials on the wiki just to get my feet wet. I really liked what I learned and how it went.
I realize that number 6 is probably too broad and therefore unanswerable. I'll edit it out.
The hardest thing so far is the lack of documentation (although the documentation that does exist is pretty solid).
03/09/2013 (10:20 pm)
Thanks for your response. I appreciate it.I completed the video tutorials on the wiki just to get my feet wet. I really liked what I learned and how it went.
I realize that number 6 is probably too broad and therefore unanswerable. I'll edit it out.
The hardest thing so far is the lack of documentation (although the documentation that does exist is pretty solid).
#3
Alpha-Kand provided excellent answers, but I'd like to throw in my own voice:
* Generate good will. There are still some folks out there who will post opinions or reviews based on negative experiences they had years ago, even though it was a different company under different leadership. We wanted to show the world that the new GarageGames is all about fostering development, without monetizing the main engines.
* Torque 2D is a great engine and GarageGames wants it to reach as many people as possible. An open source engine with no restrictions can do this better than a $99 engine with a tight license.
* The game engine licensing business is a bloody battle. We started the trend, but lost footing to competitors. With all the free options out there, it was difficult to keep up. Additionally, we are a very small company. Trying to maintain multiple engines with all the obligation on us became a losing battle. Instead, we decided that our engines belong to everyone. Everyone is allowed to contribute, consume, and do what they wish. Now, "our" means GarageGames and everyone else.
* We found a way of generating revenue that is more stable and lucrative. Rather than shelving the engines and letting them die, we wanted to give them new life that does not rely on us. We are still contributors, but now the engines can continue with or without us.
03/10/2013 (6:57 am)
Quote:As a general rule of thumb, I always write down any app idea that ever pops into my head, onto my notepad.This is excellent! Melv and I (the Torque 2D developers) do this exact thing, which is why our Torque 2D MIT launch went so smoothly with relatively little problems. The clean architecture is credited to Melv, who always writes out his systems on paper before he starts.
Alpha-Kand provided excellent answers, but I'd like to throw in my own voice:
Quote:I read the licensing page for Torque 2D. Is it 100% free for commercial use (meaning, if I were to finish my game, I could publish it commercially with *NO* restrictions whatsoever)?None whatsoever. However, if you wish to contribute code to the the main repository, it will need to contain the MIT header you see in all our files.
Quote:Is there a splash screen (although I suppose this relates to above)?You are not required to use a splash screen, but we (GarageGames and Torque 2D contributors) would love it if you used one. It's totally up to you. If you want, you can take the splash screens we provide and modify them to your liking. Again, optional but appreciated.
Quote:What's the deal with the "MIT Open Source"? Why was Torque 2D switched?Because we're nice guys? While a joking statement, there is some truth to it. The following are the primary reasons we released the engine under the MIT license:
* Generate good will. There are still some folks out there who will post opinions or reviews based on negative experiences they had years ago, even though it was a different company under different leadership. We wanted to show the world that the new GarageGames is all about fostering development, without monetizing the main engines.
* Torque 2D is a great engine and GarageGames wants it to reach as many people as possible. An open source engine with no restrictions can do this better than a $99 engine with a tight license.
* The game engine licensing business is a bloody battle. We started the trend, but lost footing to competitors. With all the free options out there, it was difficult to keep up. Additionally, we are a very small company. Trying to maintain multiple engines with all the obligation on us became a losing battle. Instead, we decided that our engines belong to everyone. Everyone is allowed to contribute, consume, and do what they wish. Now, "our" means GarageGames and everyone else.
* We found a way of generating revenue that is more stable and lucrative. Rather than shelving the engines and letting them die, we wanted to give them new life that does not rely on us. We are still contributors, but now the engines can continue with or without us.
Quote:I noticed there's a "beginner" and "professional" forum for Torque 2D. What's that about?They are pretty much self explanatory. I originally only created one forum, but I was encouraged to create two. The main reasons are being consistent with our other open source option (Torque 3D) and to cater to different developers. A certain mindset should be approached when replying to a post. When you know its a beginner, you have to be more patient and repetitive. Posts in the professional forums are expected to jump ahead of the basics and focus on the highly technical aspects of the engine.
Quote:What are the legal restrictions of using Torque 2D (the free/open-source version)?There is only one restriction: GarageGames owns the "Torque 2D" and "Torque 3D" brands. You could repackage Torque 2D and sell it as "The Jellybean Engine" and that would be fine. You cannot repackage it and sell it as "Torque 2D". Make sense?
Quote:What are some necessary/important pieces of information that I should know about Torque 2D?Wow, I could go on and on and on and on about this question. Everything is important, so focus on what you need to know right now. My mantra, which you will see in the documentation, is "Read. Read Code. Code." Isolate what you want to learn, then use that mantra. You will not be able to learn everything that is important in a short period of time. If you want to narrow this question down, I'll happily read your reply.
#4
This question is easier to answer when you have a lot of technical questions. For example, if you were to say "I need an engine that can do 2D and 3D, runs in a web browser, deploys to Android, and has shaders", then at a technical level Torque 2D is not right for you in its current state. It will eventually get these things, provided enough people collaborate to make it happen.
If you want a solid 2D game engine that can deploy to Windows, OS X, iOS. It can handle that. If you want blazing speed and a robust set of features, it has it. If you want something that can be used for rapid prototyping, you are covered. If you want bug fixes quickly and access to experienced developers, we have you covered. Your imagination will be the main limitation at that point.
03/10/2013 (7:02 am)
Now, to focus on the main question of your post. Is Torque 2D right for you? Well, this probably takes a little investigation on your part. Because you do not have to pay anything to try it out, you have little to lose by experimenting. Check out all the toys we have. Some are just showing off features, like animated sprites. Others are not quite games, but can easily inspire a game idea (like the BuoyancyControllerToy). Then there are the mini-game demos, like the TruckToy, that could easily be taken to the next level for a full fledged game.This question is easier to answer when you have a lot of technical questions. For example, if you were to say "I need an engine that can do 2D and 3D, runs in a web browser, deploys to Android, and has shaders", then at a technical level Torque 2D is not right for you in its current state. It will eventually get these things, provided enough people collaborate to make it happen.
If you want a solid 2D game engine that can deploy to Windows, OS X, iOS. It can handle that. If you want blazing speed and a robust set of features, it has it. If you want something that can be used for rapid prototyping, you are covered. If you want bug fixes quickly and access to experienced developers, we have you covered. Your imagination will be the main limitation at that point.
#5
I completed your video tutorials on the wiki and I believe those helped a lot. I love the fact how there are so many "toys" to see different ways to do/accomplish things.
Really the only thing I'm concerned about right now is the lack of a GUI editor.
Another thing that's kind of been itching at me is *what* makes a game? Is it basically a module (or modules) of more advanced "toys"?
Lastly, if I add custom modifications in Objective-C, will this affect how the compiled engine/game would run in Windows or another non-Apple platform? And can I use ARC (Automatic Reference Counting) on for my Objective-C code or can I not do this since there are C++ files within the project?
03/10/2013 (11:12 am)
I *really* appreciate the time you took to write all that information! You cleared up many questions for me.I completed your video tutorials on the wiki and I believe those helped a lot. I love the fact how there are so many "toys" to see different ways to do/accomplish things.
Really the only thing I'm concerned about right now is the lack of a GUI editor.
Another thing that's kind of been itching at me is *what* makes a game? Is it basically a module (or modules) of more advanced "toys"?
Lastly, if I add custom modifications in Objective-C, will this affect how the compiled engine/game would run in Windows or another non-Apple platform? And can I use ARC (Automatic Reference Counting) on for my Objective-C code or can I not do this since there are C++ files within the project?
#6
* AppCore (everyone has this)
* Frontend (startup screens and main menus)
* Game (not the actual title, but this is all the main game play)
* Extensions (my custom script extensions to default objects, like Sprite)
* Utilities (helper module containing things like a console and debugging)
Breaking up my game into modules like that has made it really easy for me to make progress. Rather than one huge game, I can break it down into several pieces that are easier to finish.
03/10/2013 (2:14 pm)
@Shane - I'm glad my response is useful. Part of trying to grow the community is taking some time on a Sunday to answer replies =)Quote:Really the only thing I'm concerned about right now is the lack of a GUI editor.Lack of editors is a concern for everyone, including those of us at GarageGames. I will be posting a blog Monday or Tuesday to open the discussion up to the public. We have been talking about it internally, but the actual effort will be a full collaboration between T2D users.
Quote:Another thing that's kind of been itching at me is *what* makes a game? Is it basically a module (or modules) of more advanced "toys"?Honestly, it's whatever you want. If you desire, you can completely avoid using any modules. I don't advise that, though, as modules make your life really easy. I'm working on a game right now, which consists of multiple modules:
* AppCore (everyone has this)
* Frontend (startup screens and main menus)
* Game (not the actual title, but this is all the main game play)
* Extensions (my custom script extensions to default objects, like Sprite)
* Utilities (helper module containing things like a console and debugging)
Breaking up my game into modules like that has made it really easy for me to make progress. Rather than one huge game, I can break it down into several pieces that are easier to finish.
Quote:Lastly, if I add custom modifications in Objective-C, will this affect how the compiled engine/game would run in Windows or another non-Apple platform?This code will only affect your OS X and/or iOS runtimes. The non-Apple platforms do not include any Objective-C code. Now, if you write custom game play, that will isolate your game to Apple platforms. Yes, you can use ARC in your Objective-C code.
#7
I meant if I were to add my own class in Objective-C and then recompile the engine.
03/10/2013 (4:20 pm)
Interesting setup. I'll learn from that :)I meant if I were to add my own class in Objective-C and then recompile the engine.
#8
03/12/2013 (3:55 pm)
Blog about editors is delayed until tomorrow, sorry folks. 
Torque Owner Alpha-Kand
Hunter's Meadow
First off, there seems to be a lot of people asking if Torque is right for them. Personally I say if you are looking for a new engine and you find one that's free and open source, at least try it out. :)
Basically T2D MIT is a program you can do WHATEVER you want with it. You can make countless games and sell them. Or you could make business apps if you wanted. You could hack a governments database with it but it's not really designed for that...
Aiming at your bullet list:
1. Absolutely no restrictions commercially. See above.
2. There nothing requiring you say what engine you used or what
'company' is developing it. That would get very awkward since a lot of people are contributing.
3. Long story short, the previous T2D was becoming a pain to work with and since the developers liked the way T3D went and they had the resources and ability to go MIT, they did.
4. The Beginner forums are for easier problems whereas the Professional forums are for the real tough ones.
5. See above paragraph...
6. Not sure what you mean here. I could guess but I better not.
7. Like all engines it's not fool proof. Reading the wiki should get you off to a good start.
Anyway, I give you the basics. Other people can probably deliver this better but further posts hopefully will be backing me up if have kept my facts straight. :)