3 step studio, right idea, wrong engine
by James Pulliam · in Torque 3D Beginner · 01/25/2013 (3:43 am) · 16 replies
3 step studio,
pick your template, create your game, make it your own.
awsome idea, wrong engine.
you really want to make the torque 3D game engine a success? then take the idea of 3 step studio and apply it to the torque 3D game engine.
the biggest problem with the torque 3D game engine is that it takes a veteran programer to get anywhere with it. and even then, one may have troubles getting it to do what they want it to do.
so why not create a template package for the torque3D game engine, that one could select what type of game they wanted to create, name the game and create it, then they could spend thier time changing out settings and artwork to make the game their own?
here is what i am thinking, that i feel would be a great factor that would play in the success of the torque3D game engine and the garage games community.
i am going to be using FPS game style for example. for you already have the chinatown FPS game example as a repersentation of what can be done with the torque3D engine and as a learning grounds for the engine.
but lets take it to the next level.
when you open the project manager you would be presented with option of what kind of game you would like to create. as they was to be called templates in the 3 step studio, we will call them templates here as well.
so you select FPS game template, name the project and click create. this will create a up to date FPS game for you to create a game and then make it your own, by swithing out the artwork, models, going into the script and changing the settings of the values for objects such as weapon ammo, damage, firespeed, recoil, and so forth.
i feel this should be done, in a well lets say (no pun intended) 3 step protocall.
the 3 steps being add the feature, teach the feature, and follow up with complimenting the feature.
for example,
the chinatown FPS example, lacks the most needed features of todays FPS games. so lets add them into it.
first off,
teams and soldier class selection is really needed to compete in today's market.
the three steps to this would be to add teams into the game, start off with just two teams. then provide a tutorial to show the users how to add more teams and even how to limit how many can be in a team for such games as squad teamdeathmatch.
the players also need to be able to select a class of soldier they would like to play such as assault, medic, reckon, engineer.
perhaps start the template with two classes, then have a tutorial showing a user how to add more classes to the selection menu.
then to compliment this feature, provide a soldier art pack in the garage games store for a user to be able to purchase for use in their game. this could even be enhance by offering different soldier art packs that could be used for different teams. as well as i am sure it would encourage users to submit their own soldier art packs for users to purchase and use in their game.
see how this could be a win win situation?
next thing to be addressed is weapons. each class shold have their own selection of weapons to choose from. once again, provide a few weapons for each class, follow up with a tutorial to teach how to add and asign the weapons to each class. then compliment the feature by offering weapon packs on the garage games store to be purchased for use in a user's game.
now come one of the other really truely needed features of the game, recoil and iron sights.
the weapons need to have a recoil as well as a spread of fire. the spread of fire should be effected if one is shooting while aiming with sights, or if shooting by the hip, there also needs to have scopes and red dots sigts that can be added to the weapon, these scopes should be able to be selected by the player when he or she selects what weapon he or she wants to use.
then create a tutorial to teach how to attach the scopes and red dot to the different weapons. also teach how to set the recoil, spread of fire, damage inflicted, rate of fire of each weapon by editing the script with the weapon in question.
compliment this by offering scopes and red dot sights once again, on the garage games website.
the engine does already have a ruff outline for alot of these features, they just need to be enhanced. iron sights and weapon's recoil and teamis missing and is very much needed in today's FPS games.
by providind such features stated above you would be giving a indy game delevoplet a solid base to work off of, and you would be saving them a great amount of time, which would allow them to concentrate more on created their game and making it real, then trying to weed through all the programing coding just to get the game starter kit up to par.
and yes true this may be alot of work, but if the engineers of the torque3D game engine feels this is too much work for their staff to acomplish, i really don't see how one would expect a indy developer that is often working alone in his or her living room to be able to do it all.
it really is the same concept you all had for 3 step studio, i feel it would be a much better idea to apply it to the torque3D game engine.
just my two cents anyhows.......
pick your template, create your game, make it your own.
awsome idea, wrong engine.
you really want to make the torque 3D game engine a success? then take the idea of 3 step studio and apply it to the torque 3D game engine.
the biggest problem with the torque 3D game engine is that it takes a veteran programer to get anywhere with it. and even then, one may have troubles getting it to do what they want it to do.
so why not create a template package for the torque3D game engine, that one could select what type of game they wanted to create, name the game and create it, then they could spend thier time changing out settings and artwork to make the game their own?
here is what i am thinking, that i feel would be a great factor that would play in the success of the torque3D game engine and the garage games community.
i am going to be using FPS game style for example. for you already have the chinatown FPS game example as a repersentation of what can be done with the torque3D engine and as a learning grounds for the engine.
but lets take it to the next level.
when you open the project manager you would be presented with option of what kind of game you would like to create. as they was to be called templates in the 3 step studio, we will call them templates here as well.
so you select FPS game template, name the project and click create. this will create a up to date FPS game for you to create a game and then make it your own, by swithing out the artwork, models, going into the script and changing the settings of the values for objects such as weapon ammo, damage, firespeed, recoil, and so forth.
i feel this should be done, in a well lets say (no pun intended) 3 step protocall.
the 3 steps being add the feature, teach the feature, and follow up with complimenting the feature.
for example,
the chinatown FPS example, lacks the most needed features of todays FPS games. so lets add them into it.
first off,
teams and soldier class selection is really needed to compete in today's market.
the three steps to this would be to add teams into the game, start off with just two teams. then provide a tutorial to show the users how to add more teams and even how to limit how many can be in a team for such games as squad teamdeathmatch.
the players also need to be able to select a class of soldier they would like to play such as assault, medic, reckon, engineer.
perhaps start the template with two classes, then have a tutorial showing a user how to add more classes to the selection menu.
then to compliment this feature, provide a soldier art pack in the garage games store for a user to be able to purchase for use in their game. this could even be enhance by offering different soldier art packs that could be used for different teams. as well as i am sure it would encourage users to submit their own soldier art packs for users to purchase and use in their game.
see how this could be a win win situation?
next thing to be addressed is weapons. each class shold have their own selection of weapons to choose from. once again, provide a few weapons for each class, follow up with a tutorial to teach how to add and asign the weapons to each class. then compliment the feature by offering weapon packs on the garage games store to be purchased for use in a user's game.
now come one of the other really truely needed features of the game, recoil and iron sights.
the weapons need to have a recoil as well as a spread of fire. the spread of fire should be effected if one is shooting while aiming with sights, or if shooting by the hip, there also needs to have scopes and red dots sigts that can be added to the weapon, these scopes should be able to be selected by the player when he or she selects what weapon he or she wants to use.
then create a tutorial to teach how to attach the scopes and red dot to the different weapons. also teach how to set the recoil, spread of fire, damage inflicted, rate of fire of each weapon by editing the script with the weapon in question.
compliment this by offering scopes and red dot sights once again, on the garage games website.
the engine does already have a ruff outline for alot of these features, they just need to be enhanced. iron sights and weapon's recoil and teamis missing and is very much needed in today's FPS games.
by providind such features stated above you would be giving a indy game delevoplet a solid base to work off of, and you would be saving them a great amount of time, which would allow them to concentrate more on created their game and making it real, then trying to weed through all the programing coding just to get the game starter kit up to par.
and yes true this may be alot of work, but if the engineers of the torque3D game engine feels this is too much work for their staff to acomplish, i really don't see how one would expect a indy developer that is often working alone in his or her living room to be able to do it all.
it really is the same concept you all had for 3 step studio, i feel it would be a much better idea to apply it to the torque3D game engine.
just my two cents anyhows.......
#2
Personally, I'm not a fan of "click here to make your game" style products. Whilst they are great for youngsters as a learning tool, particularly in terms of understanding mechanics and event driven development - they do nothing to resolve the problems of a generation of people who basically cannot program...
They also end up adding to the mountain of a zillion rubbish "apps" that are currently available across most platforms.
Having said that, 3 Step would be a great tool for getting kids at high school level into the world of development. Anything that can do that gets my vote. I hope the project re-surfaces in the future.
01/25/2013 (4:35 am)
From the recent T3D blogs, the modular project generation concept is in the works anyway - this is a absolutely a move in the right direction (although not quite to the extent of James wish list).Personally, I'm not a fan of "click here to make your game" style products. Whilst they are great for youngsters as a learning tool, particularly in terms of understanding mechanics and event driven development - they do nothing to resolve the problems of a generation of people who basically cannot program...
They also end up adding to the mountain of a zillion rubbish "apps" that are currently available across most platforms.
Having said that, 3 Step would be a great tool for getting kids at high school level into the world of development. Anything that can do that gets my vote. I hope the project re-surfaces in the future.
#3
but u have to be a programmer(a beginner with scripting knowledge is ok) to make them work.
t3d actually not for those who do not like to code to get the output he want.u also have to be patient enough to optimize and find out what could be the better way to do same thing.
tutorial will not help u on that case.
01/25/2013 (4:58 am)
items and feature that u asked already is in t3d.but u have to be a programmer(a beginner with scripting knowledge is ok) to make them work.
t3d actually not for those who do not like to code to get the output he want.u also have to be patient enough to optimize and find out what could be the better way to do same thing.
tutorial will not help u on that case.
#4
when looking thru the resources u can find all u would possibly need.
And lets not forget that at the end u just have to invest some braincells to get it how you want.
T3D is no FPSCreator and it will never be, i own FPSC and its pretty limitited, i even backed the FPSCR - just for the case that it eventually becomes something more.
From my experience with engines (that actually includes UDK/ idTech 1-4 and a bit Unity), T3D is the most flexible one especially since its OpensSrc outing, plenty of things got moved to the scripts and plenty more will be.
Am personally more then glad that i have to digg thru some guts (code) to be able to understand some of the things that make T3D tick.
By all means am no real experienced C++ User and probably will never be but that won`t prevent me from touching it.
Even if you break it, sooner or later it will work, there are multiple ways to find/ do what u want achieve.
an example would be the Teams/Classes resource www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/18383
i just implemented it and its almost working/ the error that i get is related to some outdated stuff in the resource that can be easily brought uptodate when digging thru the scripts (ye just scripts, no code).
01/25/2013 (6:32 am)
i just read thru this and tbhwhen looking thru the resources u can find all u would possibly need.
And lets not forget that at the end u just have to invest some braincells to get it how you want.
T3D is no FPSCreator and it will never be, i own FPSC and its pretty limitited, i even backed the FPSCR - just for the case that it eventually becomes something more.
From my experience with engines (that actually includes UDK/ idTech 1-4 and a bit Unity), T3D is the most flexible one especially since its OpensSrc outing, plenty of things got moved to the scripts and plenty more will be.
Am personally more then glad that i have to digg thru some guts (code) to be able to understand some of the things that make T3D tick.
By all means am no real experienced C++ User and probably will never be but that won`t prevent me from touching it.
Even if you break it, sooner or later it will work, there are multiple ways to find/ do what u want achieve.
an example would be the Teams/Classes resource www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/18383
i just implemented it and its almost working/ the error that i get is related to some outdated stuff in the resource that can be easily brought uptodate when digging thru the scripts (ye just scripts, no code).
#5
Ultimately, if a person wants to make a game they eventually have to produce art assets and we all know how simple and easy it is to do this in 3D modeling applications.... <man, they need to put the snark back on the keyboard> The point is, anyone with a pencil, paper and a scanner can make 2D art. 3D assets are far more difficult to produce, especially for new users. So the reason for building 3 Step Studio on Torque 2D was that it would be as easy as possible to use - especially for the total neophyte student developer that it was aimed at. There just aren't that many 15-year-olds with 10 years of industry experience with 3DS Max.
01/25/2013 (7:16 am)
It's a fun idea and it would make a good project, but I'm not sure it would be a good investment. The main reason for targeting the 2D segment was the lower barrier-to-entry on the art side.Ultimately, if a person wants to make a game they eventually have to produce art assets and we all know how simple and easy it is to do this in 3D modeling applications.... <man, they need to put the snark back on the keyboard> The point is, anyone with a pencil, paper and a scanner can make 2D art. 3D assets are far more difficult to produce, especially for new users. So the reason for building 3 Step Studio on Torque 2D was that it would be as easy as possible to use - especially for the total neophyte student developer that it was aimed at. There just aren't that many 15-year-olds with 10 years of industry experience with 3DS Max.
#6
As Richard notes, we targeted 2D because of the low-barrier of entry for the proposed market. GarageGames members were not the market. We have a wide array of brilliant programmers, scripters, and artists who are working on great projects and not afraid to get their hands dirty. This goes for the UDK and Unity crowd as well. You can only get so far in these engines without hitting the learning curve, and that learning curve is extremely difficult when you're starting out and have no idea where to go for help.
GameMaker, Game Salad, and Stencyl provided a more basic experience that still confused new users like crazy. We wanted to provide a solid first experience for developers who had no idea where to start. And from there to transition them slowly as they grow...or give them an out if they just weren't as interested in making games as they thought they were.
One of the things I've seen constantly among new users is boomaranging around engines, not because the engines are bad, but because they hit friction points early and can't get past them. So they give up and move on because they didn't get to a solid finishing point and blamed the tools for their complexity. I'm not talking about them not getting to the point where they make the amazing MMO in their mind. I'm talking about them not getting to the point where they can get a point-and-click adventure game with an image of a door, a sprite of opening the door, and the click event to trigger the sprite. Even with engines designed to make that process as easy as possible like Adventure Game Studio.
3 Step was designed with the idea of building confidence, building terminology so that they ask knowledgeable questions in often caustic game development communities, and learn whether they want to learn to make games or not. Could that be done in a 3D engine? Definitely, and TheGameCreators has seemingly done well with the art packs created for FPS Creator to fund further development. Could it have been done on the same budget as 3 Step with the same level of usability and polish? Highly doubtful.
01/25/2013 (8:42 am)
In a more generic sense, it was done with 3D Gamemaker from TheGameCreators years ago. FPS Creator was an extension of that idea that focused specifically on FPS games.As Richard notes, we targeted 2D because of the low-barrier of entry for the proposed market. GarageGames members were not the market. We have a wide array of brilliant programmers, scripters, and artists who are working on great projects and not afraid to get their hands dirty. This goes for the UDK and Unity crowd as well. You can only get so far in these engines without hitting the learning curve, and that learning curve is extremely difficult when you're starting out and have no idea where to go for help.
GameMaker, Game Salad, and Stencyl provided a more basic experience that still confused new users like crazy. We wanted to provide a solid first experience for developers who had no idea where to start. And from there to transition them slowly as they grow...or give them an out if they just weren't as interested in making games as they thought they were.
One of the things I've seen constantly among new users is boomaranging around engines, not because the engines are bad, but because they hit friction points early and can't get past them. So they give up and move on because they didn't get to a solid finishing point and blamed the tools for their complexity. I'm not talking about them not getting to the point where they make the amazing MMO in their mind. I'm talking about them not getting to the point where they can get a point-and-click adventure game with an image of a door, a sprite of opening the door, and the click event to trigger the sprite. Even with engines designed to make that process as easy as possible like Adventure Game Studio.
3 Step was designed with the idea of building confidence, building terminology so that they ask knowledgeable questions in often caustic game development communities, and learn whether they want to learn to make games or not. Could that be done in a 3D engine? Definitely, and TheGameCreators has seemingly done well with the art packs created for FPS Creator to fund further development. Could it have been done on the same budget as 3 Step with the same level of usability and polish? Highly doubtful.
#7
Like Richard, I do think that this would be a very cool mod project. In fact, you could use T3D MIT and tie it to your own content store. And there's your million dollar idea. :)
01/25/2013 (8:46 am)
Note, I just reread my response and think that it sounded a bit negative. I was looking at it from a budgeting and market comparison to our 3SS targets.Like Richard, I do think that this would be a very cool mod project. In fact, you could use T3D MIT and tie it to your own content store. And there's your million dollar idea. :)
#8
Now, this doesn't mean that Torque 3D can't be made easier to work with, and offer more templates to start from. But these are just templates and likely won't contain every feature for your game. That's where you come in.
I think there is a misconception as to who the Torque 3D engineers are. The only person that is 100% full-time, all-the-time on Torque 3D is me. Then there are Ron Kapaun and Michael Hall as members of the Steering Committee, who spend all of their spare time working with Torque 3D (great guys, they are).
The rest of the Torque 3D engineers are the community, who is anyone that is reading this forum post. :)
This community also includes any GarageGames employees that are between service work and are able to help out (one GG programmer is doing just that right now), along with any other resources that are available at GarageGames (QA support when required, changes and additions that may be shared from their service work, maintaining these forums, etc.).
This means that we need to rely on the community for a lot of changes and additions, just like every other open source product. If making a COD or Battlefield-like template is something the community would like to see included in Torque 3D, then please have at it!
Someone could start a public GitHub repository (I would recommend forking the main Torque3D repo as that makes keeping up to date much easier) and pull together the resources that are already out there, as well as add new ones. I suspect most (or maybe all) of what you're looking for could be done at the script and art asset level.
But also keep in mind if you want to make the ultimate FPS template that not all FPS games are COD or Battlefield. If I wanted to make a Serious Sam-like game (my son loves the Serious Sam series) then likely all I would need are iron sights added. And a FPS like Arma 2 or DayZ would have other requirements (inventory management, etc.).
I suspect that most of these changes come down to specific game design rather than core engine design. That's where you, as a game developer, can really show off how your game is different from every other game out there.
The alternative is to wait and see if someone else does it.
- Dave
01/25/2013 (9:32 am)
Richard nailed it. We have found that 2D games are much easier to start with when you have no experience. So for a product like 3SS, a 2D focus makes a lot of sense.Now, this doesn't mean that Torque 3D can't be made easier to work with, and offer more templates to start from. But these are just templates and likely won't contain every feature for your game. That's where you come in.
Quote:and yes true this may be alot of work, but if the engineers of the torque3D game engine feels this is too much work for their staff to acomplish, i really don't see how one would expect a indy developer that is often working alone in his or her living room to be able to do it all.
I think there is a misconception as to who the Torque 3D engineers are. The only person that is 100% full-time, all-the-time on Torque 3D is me. Then there are Ron Kapaun and Michael Hall as members of the Steering Committee, who spend all of their spare time working with Torque 3D (great guys, they are).
The rest of the Torque 3D engineers are the community, who is anyone that is reading this forum post. :)
This community also includes any GarageGames employees that are between service work and are able to help out (one GG programmer is doing just that right now), along with any other resources that are available at GarageGames (QA support when required, changes and additions that may be shared from their service work, maintaining these forums, etc.).
This means that we need to rely on the community for a lot of changes and additions, just like every other open source product. If making a COD or Battlefield-like template is something the community would like to see included in Torque 3D, then please have at it!
Someone could start a public GitHub repository (I would recommend forking the main Torque3D repo as that makes keeping up to date much easier) and pull together the resources that are already out there, as well as add new ones. I suspect most (or maybe all) of what you're looking for could be done at the script and art asset level.
But also keep in mind if you want to make the ultimate FPS template that not all FPS games are COD or Battlefield. If I wanted to make a Serious Sam-like game (my son loves the Serious Sam series) then likely all I would need are iron sights added. And a FPS like Arma 2 or DayZ would have other requirements (inventory management, etc.).
I suspect that most of these changes come down to specific game design rather than core engine design. That's where you, as a game developer, can really show off how your game is different from every other game out there.
The alternative is to wait and see if someone else does it.
- Dave
#9
Then you could pull and use them as needed to create the game you want. The key would be to make them as self-contained as possible so that they wouldn't interfere with one another. Perhaps something like T2D's new module system could be implemented and used. I've been toying with adding a plug-in system that would allow a dll to be added to a T2D module to be loaded and unloaded via script request so you could add a database plug-in - all you would need to do is add the module to your project and the dll along with support scripts would be loaded by the module system and become available in your project.
Anyway, while it is a cool idea there are solid reasons that the "game builder" tool is better aimed at the 2D segment.
01/25/2013 (10:41 am)
It would be cool to create a library of features that could be integrated seamlessly into a project. I think Michael Hall mentioned this years ago....Then you could pull and use them as needed to create the game you want. The key would be to make them as self-contained as possible so that they wouldn't interfere with one another. Perhaps something like T2D's new module system could be implemented and used. I've been toying with adding a plug-in system that would allow a dll to be added to a T2D module to be loaded and unloaded via script request so you could add a database plug-in - all you would need to do is add the module to your project and the dll along with support scripts would be loaded by the module system and become available in your project.
Anyway, while it is a cool idea there are solid reasons that the "game builder" tool is better aimed at the 2D segment.
#10
I also think I would get bored to death remaking the same game over and over and over.
There is a funny thing going on in today's world. Everyone wants to be a 'Game Developer'. Maybe it's because they have a great idea for a game and really think they 'could do it better'. Personally, I think it's because so many people play games and enjoy playing games. So, some of these people want to take the next 'logical' step from playing games, to making them. Problem is..... MAKING A GAME IS HARD WORK and playing games, doesn't make anyone an expert.
REALITY CHECK
Reality check time! Number of hours just spent on art assets for my most recent art pack:
Models: 50
Hours to make these models: 200+
100+ megs of textures created
40+ hours scripting and debugging objects
Weeks and weeks of torturing my poor wife with "Honey! how does this look?"
Asking for help from multiple community experts just to debug and make sure it works like I think it does.
The final total was 3.5 MONTHS of really intense work done from start to finish.
JUST FOR ONE SINGLE SOLITARY MAP WORTH OF ART!
Now, lets throw in what it would take to make this level a full-on FPS single player game rather than just a nice set piece. We still need: Custom weapons (probably), vehicles (likely), AI, an inventory system, Combat system, Probably some sort of Story! the list goes on and on! Keep in mind this is just a stand alone single player level. The list gets far bigger if we add in even a basic multiplayer component.
Let's tally the numbers: One fairly decent artist who has been working in 3D and game development for many years takes 200+ hours to make 50 models. Add in a programmer and scripter just for basic game play mechanics and I am sure they would spend an equal amount of time on scripting and coding our SINGLE LEVEL GAME. We are up to 600+ hours. That equals approximately 25 days (as in 24 hours a day, since sleep and other things need to get done.... 25 days is totally unrealistic) If we are lucky and all goes well, in 3.5 months, working for over 600 hours we 3 'specialists' could produce a functional FPS game level....Now, we need to debug! After that we need to fix any errors. What about sound?
Once all is said and done We have a single game level, a demo for all intents and purposes. Of what? Who knows for sure, but since we are talking about my last art pack we can assume it's a Farcry 2 clone. Keep in mind we have not added sound or cutscenes or even fancy menus.
Reality is this, making games takes time and effort. It takes dedication and focus. It takes specific skill sets, most of which are highly specialized. Games take research and thought. Games also take an INCREDIBLE amount of focus to maintain what I like to call; the "final vision".
CONCLUSION:
Would 'templates' help. Yep, for sure. However, they won't cut it alone. You need to understand the scripting and programming side of things. The features and game play are what makes a game 'unique'. By their very nature, 'unique' can not be made into a template.
Templates should be used as basic building blocks. Not total game creation. The problem is evident when you reach a point like this; What do you do if your template doesn't quite do exactly what you want it too? In today's world, rather than work it out...learn some scripts, learn some code... You dump the engine, log into the forums and declare that the engine is crap because it CAN'T do something you need it to do.
In reality, it's not the engine, but the 'Game Developer' that can't do what needs to be done. Templates can help, but to be a good Game Developer, you need more. Anyone can click some buttons to add features, but what would make that game any different from anyone else that clicks the same buttons? There is no, and will never be no, 'make MY game' button.
Ron
01/25/2013 (11:00 am)
I think I am going to chime in on this one even though Richard, DMB, and Dave Wyand pretty much covered the topic. I think James' idea is a good one. I think a tool like this could be a good starter point for many people. I also think I would get bored to death remaking the same game over and over and over.
There is a funny thing going on in today's world. Everyone wants to be a 'Game Developer'. Maybe it's because they have a great idea for a game and really think they 'could do it better'. Personally, I think it's because so many people play games and enjoy playing games. So, some of these people want to take the next 'logical' step from playing games, to making them. Problem is..... MAKING A GAME IS HARD WORK and playing games, doesn't make anyone an expert.
REALITY CHECK
Reality check time! Number of hours just spent on art assets for my most recent art pack:
Models: 50
Hours to make these models: 200+
100+ megs of textures created
40+ hours scripting and debugging objects
Weeks and weeks of torturing my poor wife with "Honey! how does this look?"
Asking for help from multiple community experts just to debug and make sure it works like I think it does.
The final total was 3.5 MONTHS of really intense work done from start to finish.
JUST FOR ONE SINGLE SOLITARY MAP WORTH OF ART!
Now, lets throw in what it would take to make this level a full-on FPS single player game rather than just a nice set piece. We still need: Custom weapons (probably), vehicles (likely), AI, an inventory system, Combat system, Probably some sort of Story! the list goes on and on! Keep in mind this is just a stand alone single player level. The list gets far bigger if we add in even a basic multiplayer component.
Let's tally the numbers: One fairly decent artist who has been working in 3D and game development for many years takes 200+ hours to make 50 models. Add in a programmer and scripter just for basic game play mechanics and I am sure they would spend an equal amount of time on scripting and coding our SINGLE LEVEL GAME. We are up to 600+ hours. That equals approximately 25 days (as in 24 hours a day, since sleep and other things need to get done.... 25 days is totally unrealistic) If we are lucky and all goes well, in 3.5 months, working for over 600 hours we 3 'specialists' could produce a functional FPS game level....Now, we need to debug! After that we need to fix any errors. What about sound?
Once all is said and done We have a single game level, a demo for all intents and purposes. Of what? Who knows for sure, but since we are talking about my last art pack we can assume it's a Farcry 2 clone. Keep in mind we have not added sound or cutscenes or even fancy menus.
Reality is this, making games takes time and effort. It takes dedication and focus. It takes specific skill sets, most of which are highly specialized. Games take research and thought. Games also take an INCREDIBLE amount of focus to maintain what I like to call; the "final vision".
CONCLUSION:
Would 'templates' help. Yep, for sure. However, they won't cut it alone. You need to understand the scripting and programming side of things. The features and game play are what makes a game 'unique'. By their very nature, 'unique' can not be made into a template.
Templates should be used as basic building blocks. Not total game creation. The problem is evident when you reach a point like this; What do you do if your template doesn't quite do exactly what you want it too? In today's world, rather than work it out...learn some scripts, learn some code... You dump the engine, log into the forums and declare that the engine is crap because it CAN'T do something you need it to do.
In reality, it's not the engine, but the 'Game Developer' that can't do what needs to be done. Templates can help, but to be a good Game Developer, you need more. Anyone can click some buttons to add features, but what would make that game any different from anyone else that clicks the same buttons? There is no, and will never be no, 'make MY game' button.
Ron
#11
i am not suggesting making the torque3D game engine a click and build game engine. that is so not what i was trying to say.
i reffered to 3step studio in the idea, but not the full extent of the idea.
i was saying when starting out the begining of your game have a selection of differnt game types to pick from that would build a starting point of that game type.
after that everything would still be done the same way it is now, through torquescript.
when i say start the game out with teams, i didn't mean click a button and have it create how many teams and how many can be on each team.
i meant start the game template with teams already there, then have a tutorial showing a person how to go into the script and create more teams for the game. could also show how to limit the amount of players to be on each team for such games a squad teamdeath match.
this would be done in the script, not by clicking a button. this would be a good way to teach beginners how to use the script.
same with weapons, and yes there is a section in the tutorial that covers weapons. so this feature would really just be enhanced on by class assignment for each class of weapons. which also would be done in script, not by clicking a button.
for the record i never said the torque game engine was crap, i think it is a very good engine, and has came a very long ways since the 1.3.2 release.
you could say my idea is more along the lines of game modding then game building from scratch, and that i would aggree with. but that doesn't mean that a bad thing. for a individual or even a small group game modding is a much more practical approach.
there is a huge community for game modding, and i really think that is what alot of people come to garage games looking to do. yes there are several who are experienced programers and modelers that are looking to do more with the engine, and for these people nothing would really change.
but opening a door for those who are more out to mod a game would attract alot of people to this community.
and yes if i had the know how i would do such as i suggested, but in reality i know it is way out of my level. this is why i put it forth here.
i guess what i wanted to emphasis on is that i was not saying make it a point and click editor. that was not my intention or my idea. the editing and such would still be done in torquescript.
i suppose really bottomline wish list would be to provide a much better starter kit for the engine. one that would have such features suggested above. something that would allow beginners something to dig into and mod, which would teach them how the process works, and work their way up.
this would not effect the experience programers in the least but would help get more people into the community who is trying to learn game developement.
01/25/2013 (12:34 pm)
i think people misstook what i was trying to say. which don't surprise me for i am not very good at words.i am not suggesting making the torque3D game engine a click and build game engine. that is so not what i was trying to say.
i reffered to 3step studio in the idea, but not the full extent of the idea.
i was saying when starting out the begining of your game have a selection of differnt game types to pick from that would build a starting point of that game type.
after that everything would still be done the same way it is now, through torquescript.
when i say start the game out with teams, i didn't mean click a button and have it create how many teams and how many can be on each team.
i meant start the game template with teams already there, then have a tutorial showing a person how to go into the script and create more teams for the game. could also show how to limit the amount of players to be on each team for such games a squad teamdeath match.
this would be done in the script, not by clicking a button. this would be a good way to teach beginners how to use the script.
same with weapons, and yes there is a section in the tutorial that covers weapons. so this feature would really just be enhanced on by class assignment for each class of weapons. which also would be done in script, not by clicking a button.
for the record i never said the torque game engine was crap, i think it is a very good engine, and has came a very long ways since the 1.3.2 release.
you could say my idea is more along the lines of game modding then game building from scratch, and that i would aggree with. but that doesn't mean that a bad thing. for a individual or even a small group game modding is a much more practical approach.
there is a huge community for game modding, and i really think that is what alot of people come to garage games looking to do. yes there are several who are experienced programers and modelers that are looking to do more with the engine, and for these people nothing would really change.
but opening a door for those who are more out to mod a game would attract alot of people to this community.
and yes if i had the know how i would do such as i suggested, but in reality i know it is way out of my level. this is why i put it forth here.
i guess what i wanted to emphasis on is that i was not saying make it a point and click editor. that was not my intention or my idea. the editing and such would still be done in torquescript.
i suppose really bottomline wish list would be to provide a much better starter kit for the engine. one that would have such features suggested above. something that would allow beginners something to dig into and mod, which would teach them how the process works, and work their way up.
this would not effect the experience programers in the least but would help get more people into the community who is trying to learn game developement.
#12
The templates were always intended as a starting point upon which to build and learn. Unfortunately, many thought that was the equivalent of a "Make My Game For Me" button and were disappointed. However, from the old "Full" template the RTS Prototype was built to illustrate that a "First Person Shooter" could be repurposed in Torque to be an RTS in fairly short order. Then the Adventure Prototype expanded on the work done there to make an adventure game style camera system.
So there are plenty of resources available, but as you say there are things that could be done to put more of that at the developers' fingertips.
01/25/2013 (12:41 pm)
Ah, well, that basically points to a task the Steering Committee is already looking at - Adding more template types. Once upon a time the Project Manager allowed you to create a new project based upon one of four base templates (it may do so now, I haven't used the new version of it). A greater variety of templates was always something that was asked for, but other matters were more urgent and things never really moved forward on that front.The templates were always intended as a starting point upon which to build and learn. Unfortunately, many thought that was the equivalent of a "Make My Game For Me" button and were disappointed. However, from the old "Full" template the RTS Prototype was built to illustrate that a "First Person Shooter" could be repurposed in Torque to be an RTS in fairly short order. Then the Adventure Prototype expanded on the work done there to make an adventure game style camera system.
So there are plenty of resources available, but as you say there are things that could be done to put more of that at the developers' fingertips.
#13
No no....Sorry but I did not mean to make it look like you said T3D was crap. I just ment that people get frustrated when things are not always easy. I have seen people do that same thing in Unity, Unreal, and in any other game engine forum. It happens.
I think you would be surprised, the steering committee is working on adding features very much like you are talking about. Templates that add features based on game type or for instance, add bullet physics rather than nVidia. Thus making the game engine feel more modular. This type of system would help a great deal and I believe it would keep the scripts, directory structure, and a host of other things much cleaner. You would not have scripts included that you don't use.... Anyway.
Sorry for my rant I did not mean to imply that your idea was out there. In fact, it's a solid plan. I just don't want anyone getting the idea that game dev is as simple as adding a few features and pressing the 'Go' button. My apologies.
Ron
01/25/2013 (1:13 pm)
James,No no....Sorry but I did not mean to make it look like you said T3D was crap. I just ment that people get frustrated when things are not always easy. I have seen people do that same thing in Unity, Unreal, and in any other game engine forum. It happens.
I think you would be surprised, the steering committee is working on adding features very much like you are talking about. Templates that add features based on game type or for instance, add bullet physics rather than nVidia. Thus making the game engine feel more modular. This type of system would help a great deal and I believe it would keep the scripts, directory structure, and a host of other things much cleaner. You would not have scripts included that you don't use.... Anyway.
Sorry for my rant I did not mean to imply that your idea was out there. In fact, it's a solid plan. I just don't want anyone getting the idea that game dev is as simple as adding a few features and pressing the 'Go' button. My apologies.
Ron
#14
i purchased the game insitute package to help me learn the process of game developement. and i am slowly learning. more and more things i do understand now. like for one, i always thought object orientated programing dealt with models.as in the objects was the models used in the game. and boy was i wrong, object orientated programing is more or less working with classes. so see i am learning.
alot of game developers frown on the aspect of game modding, which i never understood why. frpm a indy's point of view, game modding is much a much more practical approach, and a much better way to learn the process. the more a person can do, the more a person will want to do. overwhelm them with too much too soon, and you will scare them away.
and scaring people away from one's product is not a good way to grow a community.
even if these starter kits was offered at a price in the garage games store, it would go along ways to growing the community. by offering them at a price it would also help fund the further growth of the engine, while giving new comers something to work with while they learn. it would be a win win situation.
01/25/2013 (1:48 pm)
yes richard i see alot of that response, but i am not out for a make my game for me.i purchased the game insitute package to help me learn the process of game developement. and i am slowly learning. more and more things i do understand now. like for one, i always thought object orientated programing dealt with models.as in the objects was the models used in the game. and boy was i wrong, object orientated programing is more or less working with classes. so see i am learning.
alot of game developers frown on the aspect of game modding, which i never understood why. frpm a indy's point of view, game modding is much a much more practical approach, and a much better way to learn the process. the more a person can do, the more a person will want to do. overwhelm them with too much too soon, and you will scare them away.
and scaring people away from one's product is not a good way to grow a community.
even if these starter kits was offered at a price in the garage games store, it would go along ways to growing the community. by offering them at a price it would also help fund the further growth of the engine, while giving new comers something to work with while they learn. it would be a win win situation.
#15
and yes alot of people don't relize what goes on behind the scenes, well i am not one of those, i infact take my hat off to the garage games staff for what you are all doing here.
i hope you do add these features stated into the engine, i think it would really make it rock and roll, and blow the compition out of the water.
personally i think the torque3D game engine has the best world editor on the market. which is my main interest in the game is art work, i would just like to have something that i could spend less time with giving myself headaches trying to learn the code, and start learning what it is i really want to do which is the artwork side.
01/25/2013 (1:55 pm)
well good ron, because i do really like the torque game engine.and yes alot of people don't relize what goes on behind the scenes, well i am not one of those, i infact take my hat off to the garage games staff for what you are all doing here.
i hope you do add these features stated into the engine, i think it would really make it rock and roll, and blow the compition out of the water.
personally i think the torque3D game engine has the best world editor on the market. which is my main interest in the game is art work, i would just like to have something that i could spend less time with giving myself headaches trying to learn the code, and start learning what it is i really want to do which is the artwork side.
#16
01/25/2013 (1:56 pm)
That was the original idea behind the templates to begin with when T3D was first in development. They would be starter projects and genre kits to help kick someone off for different game types. There was even a section in the original ToolBox that had a second template section of Genre Kits. Unfortunately it just never really picked up any steam in the community or internally. 
Torque Owner Jules
Something2Play
The other downside is that you will end up with clones, unless it was loaded with custom tweaks and settings to make it unique. I think it would be good for newb to game development, but then it would just be a modding tool.