Torque 3D Terrain System
by Bloodknight · in Torque 3D Professional · 10/18/2012 (4:59 pm) · 34 replies
Since the release of the MIT version of torque a lot of newcomers have come and gone, some left their comments and as to be expected some are less than favourable. But one thing did kind of strike me and that was the several 'complaints' about the terrain system. Amongst these complaints were various links posted (sorry i cant find and repost them) of other engines and how their systems were better, yet on inspection the majority of system posted used an almost identical method for terrains as torque, heightmap import with or without a single base texture also with and without additional painted terrains. It should also be noted that these other engines and their 'fantastic' terrains are almost always shows screen shotted from some considerable distance so as to not reveal close up inspection of terrain features and painting.
It should also be noted that the only terrain that showed any kind of 'quality' was one that a guy spent half a day of expert working with world machine and its huge array of filters and outputted a map that was less than 1 pixel per meter.
So my question is why are these other engines heightmap import terrains so superior to the torque system?
It should also be noted that the only terrain that showed any kind of 'quality' was one that a guy spent half a day of expert working with world machine and its huge array of filters and outputted a map that was less than 1 pixel per meter.
So my question is why are these other engines heightmap import terrains so superior to the torque system?
About the author
#22
11/02/2012 (10:38 am)
And as to what could be added to the terrain editor, I think Jeff is on the right track. www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/132065/1#comment-835420 
#23
I'm with Dan on this one, there are some of us here that really only do terrains and textures, and we don't work within torque for the majority of the creation.
I Use Geocontrol for my heightmap generation, its bit of a bastard to learn as its mostly undocumented. and what is documented is in german... But its a program ive played around with more then enough to teach myself how to get the desired effects.
You also have to be careful with your terrain materials, it can make such a difference to a terrain, often you can take a poorly textured terrain and make it look a whole world better just by using a different colour pallet as a base. I also try to avoid using tiled base textures, and opt for a 4096 resolution base texture that is made specifically for the heightmap used.
Performace allowing, you should also make normal and parallax maps for your detail materials that can bring much more realism to your terrain by literally giving it 'texture'
These two pictures are the same scene, second is just the shadowing from the normal & parallax maps
A good texture can cover a thousand sins ;) Bad textures stand out a mile off especially if the tiling is very repetitive.
I have stuck with geocontrol for my heightmap generation, as I'm basically a stubborn git (I still make my models like I used to make difs...) Its the program I've learnt, and put a lot of hours into learning its erosion filters and how to control them. My personal style may differ in taste from others, but that's art... A usable terrain in a game is not necessarily a truly realistic one.
This is a map with only a single diffuse on it, I liked how it looked, but in reality, when getting it into the engine, it became quickly apparent that it would be pretty crappy as a terrain map goes for a fps style game so this map got shelved, but it shows how a single texture made for the whole terrain has its eyeacndy advantages over tiling base diffuse maps.
And some will recognise these, and yes, it's still cooking... how long has it been now ? sorry :P They all have a single base diffuse map for the better long distance detailing and feel of the map, with that layer duplicated with different detail and normal maps applied to them for close up detailing around the player.
Also tailoring your shapes to tie in with the same terrain material can help alot with detailing, using rocks to create overhangs or arches etc which you are unable to do with torque's standard terrain can help out with the finer details, but try to make sure that the object's texture matches the one used on the terrain or they can stand out a mile away and look very noticable.
I've just looked up through my post, apologies to anyone on a slow connection :o i always get carried away posting pictures but it helps to get a point across.
ps. most my terrains are made at 2-4 meters per pixel on either a 2048 heightmap, or 1024 if 'sharp' geometry detail isnt really required.
11/04/2012 (2:41 am)
Been a while since I posted here... damn life's got hectic...I'm with Dan on this one, there are some of us here that really only do terrains and textures, and we don't work within torque for the majority of the creation.
I Use Geocontrol for my heightmap generation, its bit of a bastard to learn as its mostly undocumented. and what is documented is in german... But its a program ive played around with more then enough to teach myself how to get the desired effects.
You also have to be careful with your terrain materials, it can make such a difference to a terrain, often you can take a poorly textured terrain and make it look a whole world better just by using a different colour pallet as a base. I also try to avoid using tiled base textures, and opt for a 4096 resolution base texture that is made specifically for the heightmap used.
Performace allowing, you should also make normal and parallax maps for your detail materials that can bring much more realism to your terrain by literally giving it 'texture'
These two pictures are the same scene, second is just the shadowing from the normal & parallax maps
A good texture can cover a thousand sins ;) Bad textures stand out a mile off especially if the tiling is very repetitive.
I have stuck with geocontrol for my heightmap generation, as I'm basically a stubborn git (I still make my models like I used to make difs...) Its the program I've learnt, and put a lot of hours into learning its erosion filters and how to control them. My personal style may differ in taste from others, but that's art... A usable terrain in a game is not necessarily a truly realistic one.
This is a map with only a single diffuse on it, I liked how it looked, but in reality, when getting it into the engine, it became quickly apparent that it would be pretty crappy as a terrain map goes for a fps style game so this map got shelved, but it shows how a single texture made for the whole terrain has its eyeacndy advantages over tiling base diffuse maps.
And some will recognise these, and yes, it's still cooking... how long has it been now ? sorry :P They all have a single base diffuse map for the better long distance detailing and feel of the map, with that layer duplicated with different detail and normal maps applied to them for close up detailing around the player.
Also tailoring your shapes to tie in with the same terrain material can help alot with detailing, using rocks to create overhangs or arches etc which you are unable to do with torque's standard terrain can help out with the finer details, but try to make sure that the object's texture matches the one used on the terrain or they can stand out a mile away and look very noticable.
I've just looked up through my post, apologies to anyone on a slow connection :o i always get carried away posting pictures but it helps to get a point across.
ps. most my terrains are made at 2-4 meters per pixel on either a 2048 heightmap, or 1024 if 'sharp' geometry detail isnt really required.
#24
4096x4096 base diffuse maps for terrains http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/20852
Konrad Kiss's awesome rule based distribution for painting terrains.
http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/17145
Layer Based traversability, again from Konrad, helps you to have a way of controlling just where an avatar can travel in your maps if needed.
http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/17423
Dan Keller's terrain smoothing tool modification
http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/21479
There were some others, but I seem to have lost the bookmarks, one that was invaluable fixed the black 'skirt' that goes around the scattersky but cant find it at the moment :/
11/04/2012 (3:01 am)
Couple of resources I couldn't live without4096x4096 base diffuse maps for terrains http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/20852
Konrad Kiss's awesome rule based distribution for painting terrains.
http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/17145
Layer Based traversability, again from Konrad, helps you to have a way of controlling just where an avatar can travel in your maps if needed.
http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/17423
Dan Keller's terrain smoothing tool modification
http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/21479
There were some others, but I seem to have lost the bookmarks, one that was invaluable fixed the black 'skirt' that goes around the scattersky but cant find it at the moment :/
#25
11/07/2012 (1:08 pm)
@Andy - what can you impart on a fellow terrain guy regarding parallax on Torque terrains? You seem to really bring out the details and relief in your maps that I seem to be unable to do yet. I want in on that action!
#26
Do not use the slider in torque for the parallax setting, it is way too sensitive, most the time you only need a really subtle setting around 0.03 to 0.05 or they start to look warped.
11/07/2012 (1:39 pm)
Create a height map from your texture, there are programs that can generate these from the diffuse such as photoshops nvidia filter plugin or crazybump etc, but they generally go off the shadows and highlights in the texture for the high and low points, which can sometimes make a really wonky height map. Another way is to create a plane in zbrush, apply your texture to it and 'paint' the geometry onto the plane that you want the heightmap to give, this is more time consuming but well worth the effort. Once you have your heightmap, put it into the alpha channel on your normal map.Do not use the slider in torque for the parallax setting, it is way too sensitive, most the time you only need a really subtle setting around 0.03 to 0.05 or they start to look warped.
#27
11/07/2012 (1:52 pm)
The alpha channel! Hahaha... Thanks Andy. You just made my fortnight! Also I normally set the parallax to 0.01 across the board. If you don't set it the same for all terrain materials then you get weirdness there, too. Thanks again mate.
#28
Also, what formats are you using ? I had some issues getting normals and parallax to work with dds textures, although i think that got fixed with 1.2, havent checked out 1.2 much to be fair. And you need the standard normal map there, putting a heightmap straight into the normal map slot and setting a parallax amount wont work, you will just get a kind of fish eye effect going on with the terrain.
[Edit]Im gonna make a .5m to 1 pixel terrain and show how torque can look with a single diffuse map for the texture, ive noticed theres a few threads where people seem a bit confused how torque handles its terrain textures.
Even when you are painting the terrain with the default 5 materials, it is painting it to another image that is what your terain diffuse resolution is set to under the terrains options, be it 512, 2048 or even 4096 with a 1 line engine change. All that me and Dan use is a diffuse map that is tailored to our heightmaps pixel for pixel and use that in its place which is why they generally look better. more cohesive and more natural...
11/07/2012 (2:27 pm)
I havent noticed any issues with different parallax amounts per material, what happens ? although if youre not using the normal maps alpha channel, how have you been trying it until now ?Also, what formats are you using ? I had some issues getting normals and parallax to work with dds textures, although i think that got fixed with 1.2, havent checked out 1.2 much to be fair. And you need the standard normal map there, putting a heightmap straight into the normal map slot and setting a parallax amount wont work, you will just get a kind of fish eye effect going on with the terrain.
[Edit]Im gonna make a .5m to 1 pixel terrain and show how torque can look with a single diffuse map for the texture, ive noticed theres a few threads where people seem a bit confused how torque handles its terrain textures.
Even when you are painting the terrain with the default 5 materials, it is painting it to another image that is what your terain diffuse resolution is set to under the terrains options, be it 512, 2048 or even 4096 with a 1 line engine change. All that me and Dan use is a diffuse map that is tailored to our heightmaps pixel for pixel and use that in its place which is why they generally look better. more cohesive and more natural...
#29
Now, imagine a parallax setting of 0.03 across the board, except a rock texture on the cliffs, which has a setting of 0. When you increase the size of the rock texture, as I do, then it appears to be floating above the other terrain materials. So I need to set the rock to the same parallax setting.
I use only .dds and .png almost exclusively. Never have any problems with textures. However your parallax seems to really jump up out of the terrain, and I want in on that action. I tried your advice of putting a heightmap (generated from the diffuse in nJob) onto the alpha channel using GIMP. However I don't use GIMP very often as I hate it, and Photoshop lives on another drive, so the results were less than impressive. I'm going to try it again next time I'm in Photoshop and see how I go.
Oh, and nJob creates occlusion maps as well as height maps, so I'd like to see what effect that has on it as well.
I like to make what I call Micro Terrains (the opposite to Mega Terrains ;) with a 2048px heightmap at 0.25 meters per pixel, and a diffuse map size of 512px and the results are fantastic. I recommend you try it out. I'm also keen to try it with a 4096px heightmap and 0.125 meters per pixel. I'll make sure I get a screenshot or two when I do.
11/08/2012 (9:12 pm)
Andy, that parallax slider works with normal maps whether it has a heightmap in the alpha channel or not. What I've noticed is that it draws the material away from the player's POV, rather than raise it towards the player. Now, imagine a parallax setting of 0.03 across the board, except a rock texture on the cliffs, which has a setting of 0. When you increase the size of the rock texture, as I do, then it appears to be floating above the other terrain materials. So I need to set the rock to the same parallax setting.
I use only .dds and .png almost exclusively. Never have any problems with textures. However your parallax seems to really jump up out of the terrain, and I want in on that action. I tried your advice of putting a heightmap (generated from the diffuse in nJob) onto the alpha channel using GIMP. However I don't use GIMP very often as I hate it, and Photoshop lives on another drive, so the results were less than impressive. I'm going to try it again next time I'm in Photoshop and see how I go.
Oh, and nJob creates occlusion maps as well as height maps, so I'd like to see what effect that has on it as well.
I like to make what I call Micro Terrains (the opposite to Mega Terrains ;) with a 2048px heightmap at 0.25 meters per pixel, and a diffuse map size of 512px and the results are fantastic. I recommend you try it out. I'm also keen to try it with a 4096px heightmap and 0.125 meters per pixel. I'll make sure I get a screenshot or two when I do.
#31
Have you got skype ? if ya do add mine fenyx83
11/09/2012 (7:31 am)
how are you making the detail maps ? that looks like a tgea detail the way its almost monotone.Have you got skype ? if ya do add mine fenyx83
#32
Thanks to Andy, I learned a couple of tricks to make my terrains look much nicer up close. This is a "micro terrain" with the specs that I listed a couple of posts above.
A larger version of this image can be found here.
11/09/2012 (9:14 am)
Edit: The image I had here looked so similar to the previous one that it wasn't worth having here.Thanks to Andy, I learned a couple of tricks to make my terrains look much nicer up close. This is a "micro terrain" with the specs that I listed a couple of posts above.
A larger version of this image can be found here.
#33
01/02/2014 (3:53 pm)
How do you guys export a diffuse map from World Machine 2.3? 
#34
01/24/2014 (3:49 am)
Replying to the question from topic: "The Torque3D terrain system wouldn't suit for building a many kilometres of territory". See https://garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/22029/3#comment-189123 
Steven
The biggest issue I think (also happened to me), is that people don't see what's behind creating such great terrains. Is like watching Usain Bolt on TV. How many times have you said, I can do that? But you don't see the many hours the guy spent training. The same goes for creating a great terrain, it takes time and training.
Tools don't make great artist, but they certainly help.
I took some screenshots in a different engine, going from only the terrain, to terrain with skybox, detailed textures, ocean, lighting and shadows to the terrain with vegetation and all brushes added.
Think how many hours, if not days it would take to go through each step. Specially modeling the trees and all the brushes.