Why is Torque 3D completely ignored?
by William McDonald · in General Discussion · 08/18/2012 (7:33 pm) · 51 replies
Everyone I'm friends with seems to getting on the Unity band wagon. I of course mention Torque 3D and usually I get blank stares as a response. Basicly it's kind of like developing for the Windows 7 Phone. Most people don't even know it exists (to the point where my bank's app says, "Supports all smart phones" yet they only have Android, iPhone and Blackberry) and there isn't a lot of 3rd party action going on. Yes there are some amazing artist producing content for T3D, but compared to the sheer volume available to Unity it's not exactly a level playing field.
I've also noticed the sheer volume of Kickstarters using or supporting Unity. WasteLand 2, among many other games that could easily be done in Torque... I think it's basically coming down to Android support. Everyone seems to be on that open/multi platform band wagon and Torque is quickly becoming irrelevant.
Ouya is an amazing opertunity for new game companies to get their game on an open platform, but Torque doesn't support Android like Unity does.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console?ref=live
Why is Oculus supporting five other engines off the bat, including unity, but not Torque?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game?ref=discover_pop
I just get this feeling that Torque 3d is getting buried by Unity. I'm still developing with it and I'm generally happy with it (except for some minor builder bugs and getting some of the 3rd party plug ins to work nicely together). But it's getting to the point where people don't want to work on a project unless it's Unity based. Is there a way for Torque to gain some kind spotlight again?
I should also add that I had a curious experience with some potential investors recently. I had been working with a startup accelerator for a few months and everything was going well, they liked our game for the most part (some thought it was "too hard") and we were talking some serious money (for me anyway ~100-200k), but then one of them asked if we could export it for Flash and Android. I had to explain that that we couldn't do that without redoing it in an alternative engine. They couldn't understand the fact that it was built in Torque X and couldn't just be ported over to Android, iPhone or Flash with a click of the button like Unity can. I mentioned that with the money they were offering we could hire additional programmers and port it over, but basically they wanted a Flash version to test the waters with the product before investing heavy coin. Which we weren't expecting, considering they played the game, liked the game and we provided them with statistical data and the actual feedback we got from various testers. Then they brought up Kickstarter. We told them we had already done Kickstarter (which they should know considering the data was in our original proposal) and it pulled in $5400 to which they responded with, "is that all" and so I went about showing them the stats of the other games that were on there back when we did it (This was BEFORE DOUBLE FINE made KickStarter the place to poop gold) and the fact was we pulled in twice the amount of most games on there at the time. With that kind of turn out, that should have shown there was interest in our type of game, we also did public testing events at a couple of colleges and got a lot of good/positive feedback, but suddenly they weren't impressed with our game anymore. It's very frustrating.
I guess this is a bitch blog more than a forum post, sorry, but I'm curious if anyone else has had these kind of experiences and what they think the future of Torque 3d is going to be. We have T3D as well as TX and our next game will be in T3D, but I'm afraid of a similar event when we try to get money.
I've also noticed the sheer volume of Kickstarters using or supporting Unity. WasteLand 2, among many other games that could easily be done in Torque... I think it's basically coming down to Android support. Everyone seems to be on that open/multi platform band wagon and Torque is quickly becoming irrelevant.
Ouya is an amazing opertunity for new game companies to get their game on an open platform, but Torque doesn't support Android like Unity does.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console?ref=live
Why is Oculus supporting five other engines off the bat, including unity, but not Torque?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game?ref=discover_pop
I just get this feeling that Torque 3d is getting buried by Unity. I'm still developing with it and I'm generally happy with it (except for some minor builder bugs and getting some of the 3rd party plug ins to work nicely together). But it's getting to the point where people don't want to work on a project unless it's Unity based. Is there a way for Torque to gain some kind spotlight again?
I should also add that I had a curious experience with some potential investors recently. I had been working with a startup accelerator for a few months and everything was going well, they liked our game for the most part (some thought it was "too hard") and we were talking some serious money (for me anyway ~100-200k), but then one of them asked if we could export it for Flash and Android. I had to explain that that we couldn't do that without redoing it in an alternative engine. They couldn't understand the fact that it was built in Torque X and couldn't just be ported over to Android, iPhone or Flash with a click of the button like Unity can. I mentioned that with the money they were offering we could hire additional programmers and port it over, but basically they wanted a Flash version to test the waters with the product before investing heavy coin. Which we weren't expecting, considering they played the game, liked the game and we provided them with statistical data and the actual feedback we got from various testers. Then they brought up Kickstarter. We told them we had already done Kickstarter (which they should know considering the data was in our original proposal) and it pulled in $5400 to which they responded with, "is that all" and so I went about showing them the stats of the other games that were on there back when we did it (This was BEFORE DOUBLE FINE made KickStarter the place to poop gold) and the fact was we pulled in twice the amount of most games on there at the time. With that kind of turn out, that should have shown there was interest in our type of game, we also did public testing events at a couple of colleges and got a lot of good/positive feedback, but suddenly they weren't impressed with our game anymore. It's very frustrating.
I guess this is a bitch blog more than a forum post, sorry, but I'm curious if anyone else has had these kind of experiences and what they think the future of Torque 3d is going to be. We have T3D as well as TX and our next game will be in T3D, but I'm afraid of a similar event when we try to get money.
About the author
I am the grand bureaucrat of SuckerFree Games. I now have one game in distribution, "Kobold's Quest" and another is soon to be published, "Dungeons the Eye of Draconus". My day job is as a Videographer.
#22
I would be fine still splitting the money in the same percentages as you are running with now as the advertisement value of having the product featured in the store is huge.
08/20/2012 (1:13 pm)
Well not royalties but there would have to be a share of the money sent to you guys at GG.I would be fine still splitting the money in the same percentages as you are running with now as the advertisement value of having the product featured in the store is huge.
#23
Taxation is a $fun subject. Define as you like. Sometimes it's even better NOT to have a business presence. We recently got some new regulation for digital services and products, and it made things really messy. We can import physical books tax-free, no matter how many. But dare to buy even one digital book from anywhere, and the government wants another 25%.
The madness doesn't stop there! Our equivalent of the IRS have said (officially, even!) that they would really like it if foreign companies collected the 25% VAT and paid to the government, but there is nothing they can do about it. It's not international law. But if you have an office in Norway, you can't avoid it.
Every other country will have slightly different combinations of weird and messed laws and regulations, giving you over 200 $fun combinations. But generally it seems you can get away with a business presence in one or two countries and forgetting about VAT outside, unless you're in the EU, in which case there is another set of rules to follow.
Setting up for international sales *and* payments should be a fun year for a dedicated team :)
08/20/2012 (8:53 pm)
@Ron: I can tell you there is much ugliness in Unity too! You need to put some effort (and money) in to get good results (most people don't understand lighting, and the free version doesn't have shadows, fancy water, RTT and post-processing), and I'm starting to see complaints about the included shaders in general. Every game is ugly without artists :)Taxation is a $fun subject. Define as you like. Sometimes it's even better NOT to have a business presence. We recently got some new regulation for digital services and products, and it made things really messy. We can import physical books tax-free, no matter how many. But dare to buy even one digital book from anywhere, and the government wants another 25%.
The madness doesn't stop there! Our equivalent of the IRS have said (officially, even!) that they would really like it if foreign companies collected the 25% VAT and paid to the government, but there is nothing they can do about it. It's not international law. But if you have an office in Norway, you can't avoid it.
Every other country will have slightly different combinations of weird and messed laws and regulations, giving you over 200 $fun combinations. But generally it seems you can get away with a business presence in one or two countries and forgetting about VAT outside, unless you're in the EU, in which case there is another set of rules to follow.
Setting up for international sales *and* payments should be a fun year for a dedicated team :)
#24
I don't know if you meant to, but you put $fun as a global variable in Torque Script. So when you wrote: Taxation is a $fun subject. To me it also implied it was a globally fun subject. That is really clever!
@Ron,
It is so true that people want things handed to them. They want a career without the work (a college degree does not automatically qualify someone to have a career), they want success without the pain, a game without learning to code or create art, video games without paying for them, etc. It is rampant. Kids some how think the world owes them something when it owes them nothing. Those people are not customers. They are not who we are going to want as customers for artwork or codework or even a game. That is one reason I really like post mortems of game development or any kind of endeavor. You see the people who are willing to put in on the line reach for the stars. Even if they don't win it is still inspiring. It is like athletes in the olympics. That is one thing that is rare here at GG is we can see some of that for various projects.
@David,
One thing that bummed me out when I got back into Torque in 2011 was that GG was not actively acting as a store for completed games. I really had hoped that at some time in the future I would be able to share profits with GG even if it was just in an online store capacity. Perhaps in the future we can get that part back.
08/20/2012 (10:46 pm)
@Ronny,I don't know if you meant to, but you put $fun as a global variable in Torque Script. So when you wrote: Taxation is a $fun subject. To me it also implied it was a globally fun subject. That is really clever!
@Ron,
It is so true that people want things handed to them. They want a career without the work (a college degree does not automatically qualify someone to have a career), they want success without the pain, a game without learning to code or create art, video games without paying for them, etc. It is rampant. Kids some how think the world owes them something when it owes them nothing. Those people are not customers. They are not who we are going to want as customers for artwork or codework or even a game. That is one reason I really like post mortems of game development or any kind of endeavor. You see the people who are willing to put in on the line reach for the stars. Even if they don't win it is still inspiring. It is like athletes in the olympics. That is one thing that is rare here at GG is we can see some of that for various projects.
@David,
One thing that bummed me out when I got back into Torque in 2011 was that GG was not actively acting as a store for completed games. I really had hoped that at some time in the future I would be able to share profits with GG even if it was just in an online store capacity. Perhaps in the future we can get that part back.
#25
Frank... I was actually offended by what you said in your statement to Ron. Specifically, "They want a career without the work (a college degree does not automatically qualify someone to have a career)"
In my opinion, it definitely makes them more qualified than most literate High School graduates, or illiterate drops outs. It takes a lot of work, blood and brain cells to get a college degree. What are you are proposing qualifies someone to have a "career"?
From what I've seen in the "real world" the only alternative to success is nepotism and the whole, "who you know" that gets you anywhere. If you don't have contacts, the only thing you can rely on are your qualifications brought on by sacrificing years of your life to earn a piece of paper.
I think this offends me specifically, because I know I have earned the right to a career path. I have two college degrees, I have done my non-paid internships and gone in debt for them. Yet, the people around me getting the "real jobs", high paid positions, are given to them by relatives. They didn't do better than me, spend more time learning/studying/practicing, hell some have dropped out of college all together! But what they do have are wealthy relatives to fall back on, ones who literally hand them a career. It seems quite clear to me that America is not a meritocracy, people don't earn their positions, the best and most educated don't go forward, it's the people with connections. I don't think this is how it should be, I believe my piece of paper should give me a leg up on getting a job, but it's not often the case.
So when you say we college graduates haven't "earned" a career path, I reply with, "we've worked more than most." These non-educated "successful" people who've managed to gain a career path have done so by referral from a friend or their relatives, rarely from their own merit or skills. Now if you excuse me I'm going to go back to working on my video game that I and the other "losers" on my team have been spending every spare minute of our lives on for the last four and a half years.
08/20/2012 (11:46 pm)
@FrankFrank... I was actually offended by what you said in your statement to Ron. Specifically, "They want a career without the work (a college degree does not automatically qualify someone to have a career)"
In my opinion, it definitely makes them more qualified than most literate High School graduates, or illiterate drops outs. It takes a lot of work, blood and brain cells to get a college degree. What are you are proposing qualifies someone to have a "career"?
From what I've seen in the "real world" the only alternative to success is nepotism and the whole, "who you know" that gets you anywhere. If you don't have contacts, the only thing you can rely on are your qualifications brought on by sacrificing years of your life to earn a piece of paper.
I think this offends me specifically, because I know I have earned the right to a career path. I have two college degrees, I have done my non-paid internships and gone in debt for them. Yet, the people around me getting the "real jobs", high paid positions, are given to them by relatives. They didn't do better than me, spend more time learning/studying/practicing, hell some have dropped out of college all together! But what they do have are wealthy relatives to fall back on, ones who literally hand them a career. It seems quite clear to me that America is not a meritocracy, people don't earn their positions, the best and most educated don't go forward, it's the people with connections. I don't think this is how it should be, I believe my piece of paper should give me a leg up on getting a job, but it's not often the case.
So when you say we college graduates haven't "earned" a career path, I reply with, "we've worked more than most." These non-educated "successful" people who've managed to gain a career path have done so by referral from a friend or their relatives, rarely from their own merit or skills. Now if you excuse me I'm going to go back to working on my video game that I and the other "losers" on my team have been spending every spare minute of our lives on for the last four and a half years.
#26
Perhaps Unity or other engines have more tutorials, almost on anything you might need or not need to.
In my opinion Newbies are the bread and butter of any game engine seller.
Yes, people like me who don't have a degree in C++, people who played games, came up with an idea and want to make a game.
You make money by selling your product to new customers, and it only happens once. Well, you can actually bullshit people and sell the same product many times by creating TGE then T3D, then T3D NG-new generation, or TGB and iT2d then merge them in one with a new version and call it T2D and then split them again with new versions and some new features. But people see these kind of things and are not particularly happy about it.
Professional and average people don't need to buy a game engine, they develop games just using C++.
Don't try to reassure me that you are too a professional but don't want to waste time to develop the entire engine for your game. I've seen people doing school projects making their own game engines and frameworks in C++.
If you are making AAA game you must have had a huge budget, so you make your own in house game engine.
You might say that is where you can buy T3d or Unity to save money.
Let me ask you how many successful AAA games have you seen using these engines? Look around Warcraft, Unreal, HL2, Starcraft etc. all made with their own engines.
The same goes to an indie projects, one guy, and I mean just one guy team, contacted me that he could make my game easily with C++ in no time since he has done it many times, in fact he already had a framework for all my needs. He was still in school.
But I wanted to learn the process of making it by myself.
So, if you guys make as many tutorials as possible you might get more customers. When you start seeing less people asking how to do that, how to do this, how to make this or that game, you'll see a record jump in sales of you game engines.
At the moment I suspect GG is busy making their own games just to make the living, I don't blame them.
(mind you I could have ignored this thread since I don't care, but I took my time to type this)
08/21/2012 (2:13 am)
Just to answer the OP, my thoughts:Perhaps Unity or other engines have more tutorials, almost on anything you might need or not need to.
In my opinion Newbies are the bread and butter of any game engine seller.
Yes, people like me who don't have a degree in C++, people who played games, came up with an idea and want to make a game.
You make money by selling your product to new customers, and it only happens once. Well, you can actually bullshit people and sell the same product many times by creating TGE then T3D, then T3D NG-new generation, or TGB and iT2d then merge them in one with a new version and call it T2D and then split them again with new versions and some new features. But people see these kind of things and are not particularly happy about it.
Professional and average people don't need to buy a game engine, they develop games just using C++.
Don't try to reassure me that you are too a professional but don't want to waste time to develop the entire engine for your game. I've seen people doing school projects making their own game engines and frameworks in C++.
If you are making AAA game you must have had a huge budget, so you make your own in house game engine.
You might say that is where you can buy T3d or Unity to save money.
Let me ask you how many successful AAA games have you seen using these engines? Look around Warcraft, Unreal, HL2, Starcraft etc. all made with their own engines.
The same goes to an indie projects, one guy, and I mean just one guy team, contacted me that he could make my game easily with C++ in no time since he has done it many times, in fact he already had a framework for all my needs. He was still in school.
But I wanted to learn the process of making it by myself.
So, if you guys make as many tutorials as possible you might get more customers. When you start seeing less people asking how to do that, how to do this, how to make this or that game, you'll see a record jump in sales of you game engines.
At the moment I suspect GG is busy making their own games just to make the living, I don't blame them.
(mind you I could have ignored this thread since I don't care, but I took my time to type this)
#27
The list for the Unreal Engine goes on and on. Ofc the Unity and T3D list is rather non existant but they are aimed at indie developers not AAA developers.
You could develop the engine yourself but it is time consuming and most likely wouldn't have the same quality as one you could buy. And also giving up support and community for a do-it-yourself engine is a big loss.
Also it seems like GG is going that route with more tutorials etc with the 3 Step Studio.
08/21/2012 (3:07 am)
@Vlad IQuote:Well, you can actually bullshit people and sell the same product many times by creating TGE then T3D, then T3D NG-new generation, or TGB and iT2d then merge them in one with a new version and call it T2D and then split them again with new versions and some new features. But people see these kind of things and are not particularly happy about it.Don't know if you just stated an example or if this is actually a rant just wanted to note that this is not what GG is doing so there isn't anyone who begins to believe this. TGE and T3D is very distinct and the merge of T2D and iT2D is afaik a free update.
Quote:Let me ask you how many successful AAA games have you seen using these engines? Look around Warcraft, Unreal, HL2, Starcraft etc. all made with their own engines.Batman Arkham Asylum, Tera, Duke Nukem Forever, Deus Ex.
The list for the Unreal Engine goes on and on. Ofc the Unity and T3D list is rather non existant but they are aimed at indie developers not AAA developers.
You could develop the engine yourself but it is time consuming and most likely wouldn't have the same quality as one you could buy. And also giving up support and community for a do-it-yourself engine is a big loss.
Also it seems like GG is going that route with more tutorials etc with the 3 Step Studio.
#28
08/21/2012 (3:16 am)
The question was how many successful AAA games have you seen using these engines? (T3d and Unity) the engines I don't consider as AAA more or less indie
#29
Other wise we would have seen just one game engine. Yes one T3d and TGB, since TGB is a small version of T3D.
08/21/2012 (3:19 am)
And yes it wasnt a rant, this is life. This is how they make money.Other wise we would have seen just one game engine. Yes one T3d and TGB, since TGB is a small version of T3D.
#30
Ofc T3D is capable of making AAA games, but it doesn't surprise me that the UnrealEngine is more capable of it considering it's price tag.
TGB is not a small version of T3D and isn't T2D already released?
They aren't making money by selling the same stuff again and again. They are making money by selling upgrades!
T3D was a complete rewrite of TGEA and therefore a new product. Thats completely fair to me.
I don't know where you got this idea that they sell the same products under different names?
They could also call it TGE3 but T3D is just a better name, better brand.
08/21/2012 (3:26 am)
Yeah but then it is an unfair statement. T3D is not aimed at AAA titles, instead you should ask how many indie games have you seen released with T3D.Ofc T3D is capable of making AAA games, but it doesn't surprise me that the UnrealEngine is more capable of it considering it's price tag.
TGB is not a small version of T3D and isn't T2D already released?
They aren't making money by selling the same stuff again and again. They are making money by selling upgrades!
T3D was a complete rewrite of TGEA and therefore a new product. Thats completely fair to me.
I don't know where you got this idea that they sell the same products under different names?
They could also call it TGE3 but T3D is just a better name, better brand.
#31
What I said was that if you make AAA you must have a huge budget, so you make your own in house game engine. Many prefer making their own engines.
As I said I've seen people making their own game engines while in school. Get used to it. It's not a rocket science. You have an option to buy Unreal license for 250k$ then you need a team of programmers each 50-60K pa, then you most definitely need to buy support help from Unreal. And at the end you need to pay royalties. Tons of spending.
Buying game engine doesn't mean you are already buying the game you want to make.
If you are making indie game you can make it with C++
On some forums I asked : I'm making an indie game using Torque, need programmers to make the game. They just laughed, why you need Torque
we could make it done in C++, with no fuss.
TGB = T2D and it is a small version of T3D. I can't be bothered searching the forums where one of GG stuff said that.
TGB is T2D you needed to upgrade for 40 $ to T2D from TGB.
Yes, they add some new features and fixes and repackage it, that is how they make money. As I said making/selling engines, you only sell it once so what's next? How do you maintain the company?
One way you need to attract more newcomers, which doesn't work for GG
Second way you repackage it.
I got a feeling I have to find a prove of everything for you, can't you just believe me?
08/21/2012 (3:52 am)
I don't ask how many successful indie games have been released with T3D no I care, no I see any.What I said was that if you make AAA you must have a huge budget, so you make your own in house game engine. Many prefer making their own engines.
As I said I've seen people making their own game engines while in school. Get used to it. It's not a rocket science. You have an option to buy Unreal license for 250k$ then you need a team of programmers each 50-60K pa, then you most definitely need to buy support help from Unreal. And at the end you need to pay royalties. Tons of spending.
Buying game engine doesn't mean you are already buying the game you want to make.
If you are making indie game you can make it with C++
On some forums I asked : I'm making an indie game using Torque, need programmers to make the game. They just laughed, why you need Torque
we could make it done in C++, with no fuss.
TGB = T2D and it is a small version of T3D. I can't be bothered searching the forums where one of GG stuff said that.
TGB is T2D you needed to upgrade for 40 $ to T2D from TGB.
Yes, they add some new features and fixes and repackage it, that is how they make money. As I said making/selling engines, you only sell it once so what's next? How do you maintain the company?
One way you need to attract more newcomers, which doesn't work for GG
Second way you repackage it.
I got a feeling I have to find a prove of everything for you, can't you just believe me?
#32
very much true for many university where u will be taught some very unnecessary subject which have no relationship with your orginal subject.
moreover most of those theory will give u only basic starting not professional way.
first line is not true.if i try than i can make a big list against it.
and whole block is not true for my department(although it is one of top 5 university of the country).
if u are talking about harvad or any other good university than things is true.
but do not judge every university with yours one
nor
another student's acquired knowledge with yours honesthard work.
for your concern,frank have said "automatically".
i can remember one comment.moreover,u can see tgb based code in t3d source.
but do not think to combine it2d.that is different tech.but still possible to combine.
may be u can say that "i do not need them?".
if u do not need those feature than do not upgrade.
from my small time Span with t3d i think gg add features that were demanded by community or time.so those feature are ok for others.
(but honestly here is a problem.gg never publish bug fixes except once.bad very bad for non programmer.i think if GG do not have time to publish bug fix update than at least send a mail to product buyers to inform about recent bug list.why make your buyers time spending into finding same bug several times.they do not have time to come here and see the bug list. )
so seriously consider this mailing concept.it will save time of your clients.
and where is that monthly mail edition that u starting to send at the beginning of 2011???????
in case of quality product,i do not belive that.except u have someone to guide u or you are a student of game developing insti
08/21/2012 (6:22 am)
Quote:They want a career without the work (a college degree does not automatically qualify someone to have a career)"
very much true for many university where u will be taught some very unnecessary subject which have no relationship with your orginal subject.
moreover most of those theory will give u only basic starting not professional way.
Quote:" it definitely makes them more qualified than most literate High School graduates, or illiterate drops outs.
first line is not true.if i try than i can make a big list against it.
and whole block is not true for my department(although it is one of top 5 university of the country).
Quote: It takes a lot of work, blood and brain cells to get a college degree. What are you are proposing qualifies someone to have a "career"? "
if u are talking about harvad or any other good university than things is true.
but do not judge every university with yours one
nor
another student's acquired knowledge with yours honesthard work.
for your concern,frank have said "automatically".
Quote:"TGB = T2D and it is a small version of T3D. I can't be bothered searching the forums where one of GG stuff said that."
i can remember one comment.moreover,u can see tgb based code in t3d source.
but do not think to combine it2d.that is different tech.but still possible to combine.
Quote:"TGB is T2D you needed to upgrade for 40 $ to T2D from TGB."i thought tgb was same as t2d.
Quote:"Yes, they add some new features and fixes and repackage it, that is how they make money. As I said making/selling engines, you only sell it once so what's next?"absolutely not true.if true then ask yourself,how much it would cost youself to hire someone to add those feature.i am sure GG upgrade price would be very small.
may be u can say that "i do not need them?".
if u do not need those feature than do not upgrade.
from my small time Span with t3d i think gg add features that were demanded by community or time.so those feature are ok for others.
(but honestly here is a problem.gg never publish bug fixes except once.bad very bad for non programmer.i think if GG do not have time to publish bug fix update than at least send a mail to product buyers to inform about recent bug list.why make your buyers time spending into finding same bug several times.they do not have time to come here and see the bug list. )
so seriously consider this mailing concept.it will save time of your clients.
and where is that monthly mail edition that u starting to send at the beginning of 2011???????
Quote: I've seen people making their own game engines while in school. Get used to it. It's not a rocket science. "
in case of quality product,i do not belive that.except u have someone to guide u or you are a student of game developing insti
#33
I'll pass this information to John Carmack when I see him again.
08/21/2012 (7:03 am)
Quote:in case of quality product,i do not belive that.except u have someone to guide u or you are a student of game developing insti
I'll pass this information to John Carmack when I see him again.
#34
Let me see if I can explain better. My intention is not to tick people off. I am also a college graduate.
When someone goes to a college and gets a degree they have a certain specialization. If that specialization is needed in the market place then that person has a greater likely hood of finding an employer. However, just because someone has a degree does not mean anyone owes that person a job. The idea that one just needs to: "get a degree, find a good job, work real hard for the employer, and the company will take care of you" is now a lie. It used to be true, but now employers are looking to pay for performance. No benefits, temp workers, prefer to contract out things, etc.
There are people who some how think since they have an education/degree that some how the world owes them employment or success. That is so far from the truth it is dangerous. It has become dangerous because people are saying: "I am not successful like I thought I would be so it has to be someone else fault." It is the governments fault, it is the rich peoples' fault, it is because I am not the right color, it is because ... and the list keeps going. This is a victim mentality. People who are successful take a completely different mentality. They say things like: If it is to be it is up to me, I take responsibility for my future, if I can't get employed with the skills (degrees) I have then I will retrain, I will learn the principles of success from others who have been successful, etc.
I am not going to tell you that nepotism doesn't exist, or that people don't get ahead unfairly. That crap happens. However, does that benefit those people in the long run? No, it damages them as people. So be careful what kind of success you are chasing. You may just find your ladder is on the wrong wall.
All the contacts I have are people I have met throughout my career. I had no relatives, I had no higher up friends unless I made friends with them, I sought and found information to make me more effective which was not taught in school. I have also been down the blame path before. It took me no where. It is when I took responsibility for my own results that things got better.
I hope this explains my line of thinking. Having a degree does give that person a certain pedigree. But most employers I have talked to said that when they hire a graduate they have to teach them what they really want them to know. One thing that a degree tells about a person is they are capable of learning and sticking to a task.
Anyway, I apologize if this offends you. A lot of the world would be offended by parts of this. I would rather risk offense and tell someone "how it is" rather then sugar coat a lie.
08/21/2012 (8:13 am)
@William,Let me see if I can explain better. My intention is not to tick people off. I am also a college graduate.
When someone goes to a college and gets a degree they have a certain specialization. If that specialization is needed in the market place then that person has a greater likely hood of finding an employer. However, just because someone has a degree does not mean anyone owes that person a job. The idea that one just needs to: "get a degree, find a good job, work real hard for the employer, and the company will take care of you" is now a lie. It used to be true, but now employers are looking to pay for performance. No benefits, temp workers, prefer to contract out things, etc.
There are people who some how think since they have an education/degree that some how the world owes them employment or success. That is so far from the truth it is dangerous. It has become dangerous because people are saying: "I am not successful like I thought I would be so it has to be someone else fault." It is the governments fault, it is the rich peoples' fault, it is because I am not the right color, it is because ... and the list keeps going. This is a victim mentality. People who are successful take a completely different mentality. They say things like: If it is to be it is up to me, I take responsibility for my future, if I can't get employed with the skills (degrees) I have then I will retrain, I will learn the principles of success from others who have been successful, etc.
I am not going to tell you that nepotism doesn't exist, or that people don't get ahead unfairly. That crap happens. However, does that benefit those people in the long run? No, it damages them as people. So be careful what kind of success you are chasing. You may just find your ladder is on the wrong wall.
All the contacts I have are people I have met throughout my career. I had no relatives, I had no higher up friends unless I made friends with them, I sought and found information to make me more effective which was not taught in school. I have also been down the blame path before. It took me no where. It is when I took responsibility for my own results that things got better.
I hope this explains my line of thinking. Having a degree does give that person a certain pedigree. But most employers I have talked to said that when they hire a graduate they have to teach them what they really want them to know. One thing that a degree tells about a person is they are capable of learning and sticking to a task.
Anyway, I apologize if this offends you. A lot of the world would be offended by parts of this. I would rather risk offense and tell someone "how it is" rather then sugar coat a lie.
#35
I'd rather give a job to my relatives (family first) or a friend then to someone I do not know. Even if that person has superior degree or experience.
That is the way it is.
08/21/2012 (8:23 am)
TbhI'd rather give a job to my relatives (family first) or a friend then to someone I do not know. Even if that person has superior degree or experience.
That is the way it is.
#36
Did you know the guys who wrote Half Life did not write the original engine that eventually became the Source engine? They bought the rights to use the Quake engine to make Half Life. From there they have vastly improved the tech. So in essence the Half Life guys started with middle ware. So please extend my thanks to John Carmack for allowing the Half Life programmers to use his wonderful Quake game engine. It is always nice when real game programmers like Mr. Carmack allow crap programmers like those who wrote Half Life use their stuff.
Also based upon this whole idea that real game programmers write their own engines in C++ that is just not true. Real game programmers write their own game engine in assembler. Just like real artists use paint rather than some easy to use tool like Max or Blender. Well paint might be a little too easy to use. I know when I try to use CSG with paint it takes a while and I have to resort to using Blender. I know I am a bit ashamed I use IK as well.
08/21/2012 (8:23 am)
@Vlad I,Did you know the guys who wrote Half Life did not write the original engine that eventually became the Source engine? They bought the rights to use the Quake engine to make Half Life. From there they have vastly improved the tech. So in essence the Half Life guys started with middle ware. So please extend my thanks to John Carmack for allowing the Half Life programmers to use his wonderful Quake game engine. It is always nice when real game programmers like Mr. Carmack allow crap programmers like those who wrote Half Life use their stuff.
Also based upon this whole idea that real game programmers write their own engines in C++ that is just not true. Real game programmers write their own game engine in assembler. Just like real artists use paint rather than some easy to use tool like Max or Blender. Well paint might be a little too easy to use. I know when I try to use CSG with paint it takes a while and I have to resort to using Blender. I know I am a bit ashamed I use IK as well.
#37
More tutorials are always needed. It will never stop the questions[1], but at least you can stem the flow of simple questions. Perhaps a good video tutorial on each element of the editors in addition to examples of building different simple games. A few on preparing and importing assets, plus a few text tutorials on best practices on top of scripting introductions and references.
Nepotism: It's rampant everywhere in the big industry. Luckily indies don't give a damn. There may be FoaF references to get an extra hand with some work, but it's not like management in The IT Crowd :)
[1] Take a look at the Unity forums - you'd think people never even looked at the docs, which is probably true[2]
[2] This is the difference between a newbie and a n00b - the newbie asks for help and learns from it, the n00b will latch onto you and keep asking you for help
08/21/2012 (8:31 am)
@Frank: Some of my posts are like little treasure hunts. You win one half Internet (due to inflation) before tax!More tutorials are always needed. It will never stop the questions[1], but at least you can stem the flow of simple questions. Perhaps a good video tutorial on each element of the editors in addition to examples of building different simple games. A few on preparing and importing assets, plus a few text tutorials on best practices on top of scripting introductions and references.
Nepotism: It's rampant everywhere in the big industry. Luckily indies don't give a damn. There may be FoaF references to get an extra hand with some work, but it's not like management in The IT Crowd :)
[1] Take a look at the Unity forums - you'd think people never even looked at the docs, which is probably true[2]
[2] This is the difference between a newbie and a n00b - the newbie asks for help and learns from it, the n00b will latch onto you and keep asking you for help
#38
08/21/2012 (8:33 am)
@Frank: Crap programmers? They DID add skeletal animation and a few other goodies. Plus they made a game with the Quake tech!
#39
It is sarcasm aimed at the ridiculousness of not using middle ware. Sorry for the confusion. I have utmost respect for the Half Life folks.
Edit:
Wait, were you being sarcastic too. Damn it, you did it again. Bravo!
08/21/2012 (8:48 am)
@Ronny,It is sarcasm aimed at the ridiculousness of not using middle ware. Sorry for the confusion. I have utmost respect for the Half Life folks.
Edit:
Wait, were you being sarcastic too. Damn it, you did it again. Bravo!
#40
Fixed that for you :P
08/21/2012 (9:11 am)
Quote:
the n00b will latch onto you and keep asking you to do it for them, and then complain that you won't help because you didn't make their entire game for them
Fixed that for you :P
Associate David Montgomery-Blake
David MontgomeryBlake