iTorque status?
by Joe O · in iTorque 2D · 07/24/2012 (10:17 pm) · 14 replies
Hey GG Guys -
We haven't heard much from you lately on the engine front. The 1.5.1 preview had a few straggling issues that feel like they've gone silent. Anyone care to jump in and give us a heads up on what you guys are thinking, planning or working on? I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to know ;)
Thanks!
We haven't heard much from you lately on the engine front. The 1.5.1 preview had a few straggling issues that feel like they've gone silent. Anyone care to jump in and give us a heads up on what you guys are thinking, planning or working on? I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to know ;)
Thanks!
#2
07/26/2012 (10:43 pm)
Looks like this product is dying :( 
#3
At the end of the day, there are still people developing and releasing games with iTorque. So better not get your hopes high on GarageGames getting serious and keeping promises. Just focus on developing. And if you require features that are not present in iTorque and are crippling you, then move along. Unity is a much much better option, only for the support and frequent updates.
Cheers
07/27/2012 (1:17 am)
Dying?! I don't think it's dying, but with only one developer dedicated to it, and still being pulled away for a different product to support and launch, don't expect to see much development coming this way.At the end of the day, there are still people developing and releasing games with iTorque. So better not get your hopes high on GarageGames getting serious and keeping promises. Just focus on developing. And if you require features that are not present in iTorque and are crippling you, then move along. Unity is a much much better option, only for the support and frequent updates.
Cheers
#4
07/27/2012 (8:38 am)
Thanks, I will test out Unity. 
#5
Unity released two major updates in the same time we have been waiting for a minor update to it2d... nuff said.
07/27/2012 (12:33 pm)
Unity 4 is coming out soon! I already preordered mine. Unity released two major updates in the same time we have been waiting for a minor update to it2d... nuff said.
#6
It's not dead at all, but we are all working hard with our heads down.
07/27/2012 (3:37 pm)
The product is not dying. We have been putting a ton of work into a product based on the iTorque 2D/Torque 2D codebase with the intent of rolling everything into the next release of the engine. We are making sure it is tested and usable. You can check out some of Mich's 2D blogs to see some of the behind the scenes discussions and work we've been doing.It's not dead at all, but we are all working hard with our heads down.
#7
The intent here wasn't to bring on mutiny, just wanted to know what's going on with the GG crew. I like the 2D Tuesdays but again, far and few since early July. Do you have a product roadmap that you could share with us? I'm not entirely sure how many active developers you have on the engine but I know a few of us are making changes to the engine itself so we can launch our games. It would be nice to see those changes adapted to the next releases so we have an upgrade path and more incentive as well.
Anywho... keep us posted - we like to hear what's going on.
07/27/2012 (10:05 pm)
Thanks David.The intent here wasn't to bring on mutiny, just wanted to know what's going on with the GG crew. I like the 2D Tuesdays but again, far and few since early July. Do you have a product roadmap that you could share with us? I'm not entirely sure how many active developers you have on the engine but I know a few of us are making changes to the engine itself so we can launch our games. It would be nice to see those changes adapted to the next releases so we have an upgrade path and more incentive as well.
Anywho... keep us posted - we like to hear what's going on.
#8
There's been no patch for iPad 3 retina support despite the iPad 3 being released 4 months ago.
If you can't keep the current version of the engine working, I have no faith you'll be able to keep future versions working either. Without the community you have no customers, and by 'working hard with your heads down' you are losing your community. The college where I work has switched all iOS courses from Torque to Unity this year.
Some students asked me last week for advice on what engine to use for a 2D platformer for iPad. They asked if they should use Cocos2D or Unity or UDK. Torque isn't even on their radar, and I wouldn't have suggested it anyway because it doesn't work on iPad.
You have lost the fight for the 3D engine to UDK and Unity, and now, despite having the best 2D engine you have also lost that fight to Unity. This is because you don't support your current releases with quick patches and you don't offer a free version for students.
07/30/2012 (9:20 pm)
David - it's all very well saying you're all busy working on something new, but from my point of view you may as well be doing nothing because none of this work helps me get my games released. iTorque isn't dying, it's dead. Serious bugs which prevent shipping are being ignored - www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/130887There's been no patch for iPad 3 retina support despite the iPad 3 being released 4 months ago.
If you can't keep the current version of the engine working, I have no faith you'll be able to keep future versions working either. Without the community you have no customers, and by 'working hard with your heads down' you are losing your community. The college where I work has switched all iOS courses from Torque to Unity this year.
Some students asked me last week for advice on what engine to use for a 2D platformer for iPad. They asked if they should use Cocos2D or Unity or UDK. Torque isn't even on their radar, and I wouldn't have suggested it anyway because it doesn't work on iPad.
You have lost the fight for the 3D engine to UDK and Unity, and now, despite having the best 2D engine you have also lost that fight to Unity. This is because you don't support your current releases with quick patches and you don't offer a free version for students.
#9
Also GG has broken way too many promises in the past.
It seems GG plan is to have one guy, Mich (poor guy is working his butt off), do the impossible and code, document, blog, answer questions about iTorque while some people work with their heads down on some tech they been working on for ages and still have no release dates.
Just give it to us straight... stop these false promises and keeping people in the dark.
Seriously, how many employees does GG have...2 part time?
Sorry if this sounds harsh but I paid 750 for itorque (and willing to pay more) so I think I can at least voice my opinion.
07/31/2012 (3:16 am)
Conor is right, if people can't release their games then you have a broken product. People shouldn't have to look into the forums to find fixes...thats ridiculous... this is a professional paid product. Also GG has broken way too many promises in the past.
It seems GG plan is to have one guy, Mich (poor guy is working his butt off), do the impossible and code, document, blog, answer questions about iTorque while some people work with their heads down on some tech they been working on for ages and still have no release dates.
Just give it to us straight... stop these false promises and keeping people in the dark.
Seriously, how many employees does GG have...2 part time?
Sorry if this sounds harsh but I paid 750 for itorque (and willing to pay more) so I think I can at least voice my opinion.
#10
GarageGames suffers from the all-too-common complaint of excellent tech and poor management. The management seems to think that prioritizing future products over current product stability is the way to go, because they can make more money from future customers than existing ones. They seem to forget that those 'future products' will one day be the current products, and it's clear they won't bother to support them either because existing customers don't pay.
Your business model is broken. Unity is kicking your ass because they've moved to free-to-play, just as iOS is kicking the console manufacturers asses with their free/low-cost app store. The market has changed but GarageGames hasn't.
Torque needs to be free for students and indies. The pro version with source code and networking should be subscription based so that you actually make money from existing customers, and thus respect them enough to keep the engine working.
You also need a browser plugin (or at least do what Unity did and cut a deal with Adobe to get your engine integrated into the Flash plugin). Casual gamers don't want to download games any more, they expect them to run in Facebook or at least on Kongregate or whatever portal they use.
07/31/2012 (6:37 am)
I agree with Johnny, and I should add that I'm not directing my complaints to David or Mich - they're really the only people making any effort to talk with the iT2D community as well as their enormous workload.GarageGames suffers from the all-too-common complaint of excellent tech and poor management. The management seems to think that prioritizing future products over current product stability is the way to go, because they can make more money from future customers than existing ones. They seem to forget that those 'future products' will one day be the current products, and it's clear they won't bother to support them either because existing customers don't pay.
Your business model is broken. Unity is kicking your ass because they've moved to free-to-play, just as iOS is kicking the console manufacturers asses with their free/low-cost app store. The market has changed but GarageGames hasn't.
Torque needs to be free for students and indies. The pro version with source code and networking should be subscription based so that you actually make money from existing customers, and thus respect them enough to keep the engine working.
You also need a browser plugin (or at least do what Unity did and cut a deal with Adobe to get your engine integrated into the Flash plugin). Casual gamers don't want to download games any more, they expect them to run in Facebook or at least on Kongregate or whatever portal they use.
#11
Flash export tech would be a fairly massive undertaking, but it's not a bad fit for a 2D engine. I'm not impressed with 3D Flash (especially with browsers isolating that part of the hardware so much you can't get any reasonable performance).
A plugin may be hard to do, since unlike Unity 3D, the engines have full source, and people implement all sorts of things in C++ and Obj-C (I know I do both) because they're missing or just plain slow in script. When everything you have is source, every problem looks like a C++ problem ;)
07/31/2012 (9:15 am)
The 3SS project is going to be their free engine, from what I gather, and a common codebase for that and the current 2D engines will be all we have to deal with. It's a start. If they want the best damn engine for 2D games, make the first one free. The drug-dealer model has worked so well for Unity it would be silly to ignore it :)Flash export tech would be a fairly massive undertaking, but it's not a bad fit for a 2D engine. I'm not impressed with 3D Flash (especially with browsers isolating that part of the hardware so much you can't get any reasonable performance).
A plugin may be hard to do, since unlike Unity 3D, the engines have full source, and people implement all sorts of things in C++ and Obj-C (I know I do both) because they're missing or just plain slow in script. When everything you have is source, every problem looks like a C++ problem ;)
#12
My No.1 Reason for WANTING to switch
1. It's not bugs in the IDE, although they are annoying. It's not lack of features. There's plenty already. It's not the documentation, cause I figured out lots of stuff after time. Nope. It's when after submitting to Apple and waiting 10 days to finally get reviewed and then the app gets rejected not because of my code, but because of an engine fault (i.e. schedules in iPad3, black screen in Retina, etc.). And this happened several times. This is when I start throwing tantrums and start looking at ActionScript code.
My No.1 Reason for NOT switching
1. I already wrote a whole kaboodle of code for iTorque. If I would to switch to say Flash or Unity or maybe even GameSalad (they seem to be getting more advanced), it would take me a lot of time to rewrite a lot of code. However, if I ever do switch, you can be sure I am never coming back.
Seriously, we don't need new features. At least I don't. I am happy with the ones existing now. Just a solid, usable engine with no bugs and works with the latest iOS and MacOS and you're gold. Heck, I would even pay for a good update, not much mind you. Maybe $10? Still, I would pay for an update that has absolutely ZERO new features, but has fixed all the bugs of 1.5.
Or maybe you can go with cheap add-ons. Your core engine can be a stripped down but zero bugs version. Then maybe people can pay $5 for an AdMob integration GuiControl, or OpenFeint Support or whatnot. This is actually better than spending time writing documents explaining how to do these things. Because lazy bums like me don't want to spend time reading more docs. But if there's say, a control that gives my game instant integration with iAd! Wow! I would buy it. Kinda like part of what you are doing with 3SS.
That's my 2 cents.
07/31/2012 (8:19 pm)
Although I've had my share of rants for the iTorque engine, both of our games are made from iTorque and I do appreciate that. Also, I have every reason to want iTorque to succeed because it makes it easier for me to succeed. Still, there are times when I really thought about switching. And that is becoming more often. So my 2 cents:My No.1 Reason for WANTING to switch
1. It's not bugs in the IDE, although they are annoying. It's not lack of features. There's plenty already. It's not the documentation, cause I figured out lots of stuff after time. Nope. It's when after submitting to Apple and waiting 10 days to finally get reviewed and then the app gets rejected not because of my code, but because of an engine fault (i.e. schedules in iPad3, black screen in Retina, etc.). And this happened several times. This is when I start throwing tantrums and start looking at ActionScript code.
My No.1 Reason for NOT switching
1. I already wrote a whole kaboodle of code for iTorque. If I would to switch to say Flash or Unity or maybe even GameSalad (they seem to be getting more advanced), it would take me a lot of time to rewrite a lot of code. However, if I ever do switch, you can be sure I am never coming back.
Seriously, we don't need new features. At least I don't. I am happy with the ones existing now. Just a solid, usable engine with no bugs and works with the latest iOS and MacOS and you're gold. Heck, I would even pay for a good update, not much mind you. Maybe $10? Still, I would pay for an update that has absolutely ZERO new features, but has fixed all the bugs of 1.5.
Or maybe you can go with cheap add-ons. Your core engine can be a stripped down but zero bugs version. Then maybe people can pay $5 for an AdMob integration GuiControl, or OpenFeint Support or whatnot. This is actually better than spending time writing documents explaining how to do these things. Because lazy bums like me don't want to spend time reading more docs. But if there's say, a control that gives my game instant integration with iAd! Wow! I would buy it. Kinda like part of what you are doing with 3SS.
That's my 2 cents.
#13
Bug-free is pretty hard, but I wish we could get faster fixing of the bugs that we DO know about. Single-minded patch updates just for ONE bug at a time would be great. Test it on one of each screen size, give us the preview, send it to QA, move on to the next bug. Do it completely linearly if you have to.
I also think we do need new features, but GameCenter, GREE (formerly OpenFeint), ad systems are all expected to be handled by the developers themselves in most other engines. It's nice to have a reference implementation for one of each type of system from GG themselves, but I'd focus more on supporting the hardware features (up to date GLES support, shaders, Retina, accelerometer, gyroscope, camera), major OS features (new GLKit, advanced sound features), then any directly supported services (GC, iCloud, iAds) as lowest priority.
08/01/2012 (4:03 am)
The only commercial option is Unity with at least a few extra add-ons, and you'll still not match the ease of use of the TGB editor. It would be an expensive switch if you also want binary stripping and all that ($3000 to just get iOS Pro), and it's not even as nice as Cocos2D. But Cocos2D (or Kobold2D, even) is very real competition. Small binaries, fast code, active development. Just very bare-bones without external tools.Bug-free is pretty hard, but I wish we could get faster fixing of the bugs that we DO know about. Single-minded patch updates just for ONE bug at a time would be great. Test it on one of each screen size, give us the preview, send it to QA, move on to the next bug. Do it completely linearly if you have to.
I also think we do need new features, but GameCenter, GREE (formerly OpenFeint), ad systems are all expected to be handled by the developers themselves in most other engines. It's nice to have a reference implementation for one of each type of system from GG themselves, but I'd focus more on supporting the hardware features (up to date GLES support, shaders, Retina, accelerometer, gyroscope, camera), major OS features (new GLKit, advanced sound features), then any directly supported services (GC, iCloud, iAds) as lowest priority.
#14
08/09/2012 (10:02 pm)
I have made some games using iTorque and Torque. It was painful since the messed docs, or not updated. It was thanks to teh community I was able to do. I leave game development for about one year. Now I want to come back, but I will quit using iTorque since it is painful thanks to all the bugs, and outdated technology. And the lack of support. I will start to learn Unity 3D, I don´t know if I will be able to do so, but I will try, at least they have amazing docs. I lost the faith in you GG and despite I bough iTorque when it was $750 it doesn´t matter anymore, I don´t love the engine anymore. It was gold, super easy to use, but ypu leave it and now don´t work. If you fix and support to have iTorque 1.5.2 I guess Unity 4 will be out. When you get iTorque 1.6, maybe UNity 5 will be out... lol, a shame because you got it and leave it. THanks to all the community members that supported and help me in the past. 
Torque Owner Iyad Horani
IRONIC3D