Catching Up
by Marty · in General Discussion · 12/10/2011 (4:07 pm) · 12 replies
Haven't been here for a while but as an early TGE/3D developer I'm really, really glad to see that you guys are still around.
This is honestly not snark, just curious - are the TGE/3D licensing terms regarding displaying a Torque splash before any other content even at the relatively higher license price points still in effect or did that finally get more reasonable?
This is honestly not snark, just curious - are the TGE/3D licensing terms regarding displaying a Torque splash before any other content even at the relatively higher license price points still in effect or did that finally get more reasonable?
About the author
#2
A compulsory middleware logo splash at boot isn't really going to make it easy to choose Torque for your own projects, let alone sell clients on it. But I'm sure you've heard all of this.
So, has anything else changed worth noting?
12/10/2011 (7:45 pm)
Can you at least embed the logo on an ancilliary screen, say on a credits plate or similar?A compulsory middleware logo splash at boot isn't really going to make it easy to choose Torque for your own projects, let alone sell clients on it. But I'm sure you've heard all of this.
So, has anything else changed worth noting?
#3
12/11/2011 (10:58 am)
Don't see the problem with this....I mean, almost any game displays logos when starting up. Just think of all the Unreal games... Why do you think this is a problem anyways?
#4
Middleware attributions, when required, are typically allowed to be embedded in deeper screens (i.e. a credits, copyrights and notices, etc.). Torque essentially requires that games made with it (at all but the highest licensing level) be Torque-branded at boot - that's relatively rare.
If you don't mind this, then good for you. But it is very difficult to explain to clients that their logos will be displayed after someone else's on a project that they are paying for. Given alternatives such as native development in .Net or Xcode or middleware such as Unity3D which have no such logo requirements, this presents itself as a real detriment in choosing Torque.
I'm not looking to defend this position - it is reasonable and fairly customary amongst professional developers. Thus, I'll beg off replies seeking that I justify it. If anyone from torque would like to reply with news that the logo requirement will be modified in the future though, I'm all ears.
12/11/2011 (12:07 pm)
Sure. But most games display logos chosen by the developer at boot and are they are generally the logos of the involved publishers and development concerns, not providers of licensed middleware. Middleware attributions, when required, are typically allowed to be embedded in deeper screens (i.e. a credits, copyrights and notices, etc.). Torque essentially requires that games made with it (at all but the highest licensing level) be Torque-branded at boot - that's relatively rare.
If you don't mind this, then good for you. But it is very difficult to explain to clients that their logos will be displayed after someone else's on a project that they are paying for. Given alternatives such as native development in .Net or Xcode or middleware such as Unity3D which have no such logo requirements, this presents itself as a real detriment in choosing Torque.
I'm not looking to defend this position - it is reasonable and fairly customary amongst professional developers. Thus, I'll beg off replies seeking that I justify it. If anyone from torque would like to reply with news that the logo requirement will be modified in the future though, I'm all ears.
#5
Edit:
Ah, I should add that the requirement of the logo isn't going to change. The company has changed hands twice now and we still have the same requirements for the logo. Having to display a logo is more common than not for middleware, and different options for displaying it are usually tied to different levels of licensing.
12/11/2011 (12:44 pm)
We do offer a waiver for the logo requirements which has a fee associated with it. For more info on that and any other licensing concerns contact licensing@garagegames.comEdit:
Ah, I should add that the requirement of the logo isn't going to change. The company has changed hands twice now and we still have the same requirements for the logo. Having to display a logo is more common than not for middleware, and different options for displaying it are usually tied to different levels of licensing.
#6
Thanks for answering, Scott.
Good luck, Torque and Torquers - here's hoping you can get it right this time around.
12/11/2011 (1:46 pm)
Sure, "having to display a logo is more common than not" but having to display it immediately upon launch before any other pixels are shown is rather uncommon. Thanks for answering, Scott.
Good luck, Torque and Torquers - here's hoping you can get it right this time around.
#7
... raises eyebrow ...
3.3.1. display the Torque Logo, consistent with the Logo Guidelines, in the start-up sequence of the Product (unless waived by GarageGames);
www.garagegames.com/company/logo-guidelines
Things may have changed a bit since Ye Olde Days of 1.4.2.
12/11/2011 (2:18 pm)
Quote:
having to display it immediately upon launch before any other pixels are shown is rather uncommon.
... raises eyebrow ...
3.3.1. display the Torque Logo, consistent with the Logo Guidelines, in the start-up sequence of the Product (unless waived by GarageGames);
www.garagegames.com/company/logo-guidelines
Things may have changed a bit since Ye Olde Days of 1.4.2.
#8
So that means the Torque logo can be displayed last in a line of 100 different splash screens if you so wanted. There is no requirement of it being first.
12/11/2011 (2:19 pm)
Quote:It (the EULA) doesn't actually say that, does it? Only that the logo meets the guidelines and is displayed "in the start-up sequence of the Product". Start-up sequence says to me, and generally understood to be, as anything displayed before landing on a main menu or title screen. And that there is something fairly common in all games.
but having to display it immediately upon launch before any other pixels are shown is rather uncommon.
So that means the Torque logo can be displayed last in a line of 100 different splash screens if you so wanted. There is no requirement of it being first.
#9
That's what I wanted to know. It's Still a little too restrictive for my tastes, but it's great to see that Torque has lightened up a bit on the branding. It would be a lot better though to be able to place Torque's logo on a credits or notices type of screen or in an about dialog or something like that. Compulsory middleware/engine logos before the first game or menu screen are increasingly not the norm among indie-targeted game dev tools. And even if they were, I would think that the current Torque would be looking for ways to make itself stand out as an alternative to that crowd.
Thanks again, all.
P.S. 1.4.2 was the last license that I bought under this profile but not my last. I didn't give up on you that fast. ;-)
12/11/2011 (3:04 pm)
Thanks, Steve and Michael.That's what I wanted to know. It's Still a little too restrictive for my tastes, but it's great to see that Torque has lightened up a bit on the branding. It would be a lot better though to be able to place Torque's logo on a credits or notices type of screen or in an about dialog or something like that. Compulsory middleware/engine logos before the first game or menu screen are increasingly not the norm among indie-targeted game dev tools. And even if they were, I would think that the current Torque would be looking for ways to make itself stand out as an alternative to that crowd.
Thanks again, all.
P.S. 1.4.2 was the last license that I bought under this profile but not my last. I didn't give up on you that fast. ;-)
#10
12/10/2012 (10:40 am)
I'm wondering how the new MIT terms effect this whole logo requirement situation?
#11
12/10/2012 (10:49 am)
The MIT license is very permissive and doesn't require the usage of a startup logo or splash screen. It pretty much removes any restrictions that were objectionable to some.
#12
Torque really dragged its feet on silly issues like this one and let other products kind of eat its lunch over the past decade. Hopefully, an open version of Torque will allow it to be reborn as a truly democratizing gamedev engine.
Is it working out so far?
Are there editors forthcoming for Mac? Linux? Will export to iOS and Android be rolled into the open license?
12/10/2012 (10:56 am)
You know, this is all pretty incredible news. Torque really dragged its feet on silly issues like this one and let other products kind of eat its lunch over the past decade. Hopefully, an open version of Torque will allow it to be reborn as a truly democratizing gamedev engine.
Is it working out so far?
Are there editors forthcoming for Mac? Linux? Will export to iOS and Android be rolled into the open license?
Associate Scott Burns
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