What about "4K BIG TERRAIN" in T3D???
by Smouss · in Artist Corner · 10/20/2011 (7:46 am) · 10 replies
I have read some old post about the "big terrain", "megaterrain", "atlas", "HTC" (witch links are dead. it's impossible to test it??).... ect
Not easy to find between what is new and what is already out of date for a noob like me :-(
In my case I have to do a terrain of 40-50 km and with a "good" resolution (not under 1pixel /10m or 1pixel / 5 m).
So I have tested the two methods to my knowledge:
1- in a simple big texture ie > colormap + HM both 4096 X 4096>
although the terrain is loaded ... is was impossible for me to save the project... it crashed!!!!!!
2-And if I divide it into 4 map of 2048 (of course) I have problems connecting the map and og visible sims (and the positioning is laborious).
QUESTION: What is the method to use when you have to do some very large, and very detailed maps???
Not easy to find between what is new and what is already out of date for a noob like me :-(
In my case I have to do a terrain of 40-50 km and with a "good" resolution (not under 1pixel /10m or 1pixel / 5 m).
So I have tested the two methods to my knowledge:
1- in a simple big texture ie > colormap + HM both 4096 X 4096>
although the terrain is loaded ... is was impossible for me to save the project... it crashed!!!!!!
2-And if I divide it into 4 map of 2048 (of course) I have problems connecting the map and og visible sims (and the positioning is laborious).
QUESTION: What is the method to use when you have to do some very large, and very detailed maps???
#2
Atlas was created for TGEa. It allowed terrains to be as huge as you could conceivably put into memory. Many people had a love/hate relationship with Atlas: hard to understand code, no in-game editing tools, as well as various lighting and material issues.
Both of these terrain solutions were removed during the transition to Torque3D.
HTC was a community member's project for TGEa that if I remember correctly allowed procedural generation of Atlas terrains. Over the years I assume interest in it has waned and the links are now dead.
10/20/2011 (9:19 am)
Quote:Megaterrain was the multiple terrain solution that was introduced in the later stages of TGEa's life. It imported one heightmap which was split into 4 terrain tiles.
I have read some old post about the "big terrain", "megaterrain", "atlas", "HTC" (witch links are dead. it's impossible to test it??).... ect
Not easy to find between what is new and what is already out of date for a noob like me
Atlas was created for TGEa. It allowed terrains to be as huge as you could conceivably put into memory. Many people had a love/hate relationship with Atlas: hard to understand code, no in-game editing tools, as well as various lighting and material issues.
Both of these terrain solutions were removed during the transition to Torque3D.
HTC was a community member's project for TGEa that if I remember correctly allowed procedural generation of Atlas terrains. Over the years I assume interest in it has waned and the links are now dead.
#3
who was working on the Procedural math while I was sorting out the terrain
paging part :) He didnt know enough about the terrain system.. Heck I still
don't know enough about the terrain system (*grin*). It died as he never
finished the formulas. It did work to a certain point, but had some glitches
at times. These queries come up probably once or twice a year.
Basically, if you don't have a team of programmers to hand or are not a genius
programmer... Forget Massive terrains. Better to go with 2k and just portal them
to another map. Far more stable. And in my opinion a stable and quick system
will kick the butt of any unstable system. Game play is what counts long term.
All the Eye candy in the world will only keep their attention for a few weeks
at most.
*edit*
I've still got some of the code for HTC and the Paging system on my external
storage :) I don't like throwing code away.
10/20/2011 (10:56 am)
Man I remember HTC, I did some work on a version of that. Helped a guy outwho was working on the Procedural math while I was sorting out the terrain
paging part :) He didnt know enough about the terrain system.. Heck I still
don't know enough about the terrain system (*grin*). It died as he never
finished the formulas. It did work to a certain point, but had some glitches
at times. These queries come up probably once or twice a year.
Basically, if you don't have a team of programmers to hand or are not a genius
programmer... Forget Massive terrains. Better to go with 2k and just portal them
to another map. Far more stable. And in my opinion a stable and quick system
will kick the butt of any unstable system. Game play is what counts long term.
All the Eye candy in the world will only keep their attention for a few weeks
at most.
*edit*
I've still got some of the code for HTC and the Paging system on my external
storage :) I don't like throwing code away.
#4
10/21/2011 (9:40 am)
hey john, would it be possible for me to get a copy of your code. when we bought t3d we were assured that we could do 80k maps. we are building a space sim/fps ground combat game. while we could probably get away with tricking the space end of it, 2kx2k is to small for ground support fighters.
#5
Terrain texture details can be improved by using the 4096x4096 Resolution Terrain Basetex Resource by Andy Wright.
The engine imposes a size limit for a heightmap at 4096X4096, but you can change this for your individual needs -- if you're willing to experiment (there will be a lot of crashes). I've successfully imported a 8192X8192 size heightmap after making the changes, however the performance hit and resultant memory usage was not worth using a heightmap of that size. We ended up designing around a larger squaresize setting instead.
Another problem you will run into will be that at large distances from the origin precision resolution will result in camera/object jitter.
These are both problems in any engine out there.
10/21/2011 (10:20 am)
You can easily achieve a 80k X 80k size map... except there was the qualifier for detail:Quote:Import heightmap, adjust squaresize of the terrain object from the Editor: which "spreads out" the terrain - undesirable unless you specifically plan for it.
In my case I have to do a terrain of 40-50 km and with a "good" resolution (not under 1pixel /10m or 1pixel / 5 m).
Terrain texture details can be improved by using the 4096x4096 Resolution Terrain Basetex Resource by Andy Wright.
The engine imposes a size limit for a heightmap at 4096X4096, but you can change this for your individual needs -- if you're willing to experiment (there will be a lot of crashes). I've successfully imported a 8192X8192 size heightmap after making the changes, however the performance hit and resultant memory usage was not worth using a heightmap of that size. We ended up designing around a larger squaresize setting instead.
Another problem you will run into will be that at large distances from the origin precision resolution will result in camera/object jitter.
These are both problems in any engine out there.
#6
thank you for your comments but I am still asking for some explanations:
I do not even speak of terrain superior to a heightmap of 4096X4096.
For a 4K terrain I totally understand your suggestion of using the change given by Andy Whright, because that's what I have already done.
In "stability" (I'm not talking about the visual) unfortunately the result is almost the same as what I observe PERSONALLY in the version without modification.
ie at first it works and you would think that everything is fine, but for exemple if I try to do a modification of the materials or textures (clicking on F3) it crash or freeze !So it's unusable!
Do you observe the same thing? Do some one have gone to the following step I mean after creating the terrain?
10/24/2011 (6:43 am)
@ Michael:thank you for your comments but I am still asking for some explanations:
I do not even speak of terrain superior to a heightmap of 4096X4096.
For a 4K terrain I totally understand your suggestion of using the change given by Andy Whright, because that's what I have already done.
In "stability" (I'm not talking about the visual) unfortunately the result is almost the same as what I observe PERSONALLY in the version without modification.
ie at first it works and you would think that everything is fine, but for exemple if I try to do a modification of the materials or textures (clicking on F3) it crash or freeze !So it's unusable!
Do you observe the same thing? Do some one have gone to the following step I mean after creating the terrain?
#7
10/24/2011 (10:14 am)
Other than problems with a faulty material or bad texture format/size, no I have not experienced the problem you describe. 
#8
I would try it with DEBUG enabled and check your console.log after the crash ... possibly its giving some clues as to the cause of the crash.
10/24/2011 (10:41 am)
Its a long shot, but could you be exceeding the limit of 2000 units in height ? I had lots of trouble trying to import a height map that used more than 2k units (from min. to max ht)... it would work fine in the editor, until I tried to save. And then it would crash.I would try it with DEBUG enabled and check your console.log after the crash ... possibly its giving some clues as to the cause of the crash.
#9
I'll dig em out of the HD, Its a jam packed old usb one.
When I find it, I'll just repost it on the link page one of the members provided.
Be warned... This Barely Kinda Worked, I cant remember if we worked it into atlas
or not. I can barely remember what we were doing (So so long ago).
Too be honest, I don't think it would be worth trying to convert it to work with
T3D as it was written for TGEA and was an attempt at On the Fly paging of terrain.
That will never be a perfect solution for awhile I suspect.
*grin*
10/25/2011 (1:29 pm)
Sorry about that.. Been preoccupied.I'll dig em out of the HD, Its a jam packed old usb one.
When I find it, I'll just repost it on the link page one of the members provided.
Be warned... This Barely Kinda Worked, I cant remember if we worked it into atlas
or not. I can barely remember what we were doing (So so long ago).
Too be honest, I don't think it would be worth trying to convert it to work with
T3D as it was written for TGEA and was an attempt at On the Fly paging of terrain.
That will never be a perfect solution for awhile I suspect.
*grin*
#10
Heres the Posts:
Heres the main Forum post:
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/10250
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=1229...
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=1229...
This was not the Same as the Original HTC, this was a slightly different one.
Enjoy, Those files are Still accessible on GG.
10/28/2011 (1:27 am)
Hehe, Found the Posts.. It was the IGHTC.. Heres the Posts:
Heres the main Forum post:
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/10250
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=1229...
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=1229...
This was not the Same as the Original HTC, this was a slightly different one.
Enjoy, Those files are Still accessible on GG.
Torque 3D Owner Paul Yoskowitz
WinterLeaf Entertainment
2 - yes.... youre absolutely correct and there is no good way around it really. The best ive heard so far is to hide it with scenery... not a fix, more of a work around imo.
what i did with this was make a 2kx2kx2 terrain - it seemed to work with very little noticeable difference and it worked. Since Im also dealing with outside zoning, what i did was put a zone trigger on the local map itself and then lined up the 2 maps as best as possible (making sure that if there was any hieght dicrepancies that the CURRENT map was the higher one of the 2) and then added the scenery. its by no means perfect, but thats the best work around that ive ran across so far.