Hello, Anybody there?
by Anonymous · in Torque Game Engine · 07/06/2011 (12:00 pm) · 12 replies
Hello there,
I imagine that I'm already rather hated on these forums for being previously(and presently) a Unity3D fan.
It's a great game engine- easy to use and is Extremely powerful.
However I first started on my Game Dev path with Torque.
-I didn't understand it well. I never understood programming, the interface is...quirky...
But now 2 years down the line, I understand some basics of C# C++ Obj-C Php ASP CSS HTML, and of course my favourite-Java.
Now, I want to start my own "Brand"/Company -Venom Interactive. I have little money, and therefore cannot acquire the PRO version of unity- also it has it's draw backs- a server Back end will cost around 3k, and I just cannot afford it (I'm a multi-player type of guy). also there lack of source code also puts me off- I can't make it better if my game dev career does kick off- I would have to learn another Engine- or build one myself.
Thats what draws me to Torque.
It's cheap,
And has source code to play with.
But I still have questions...
Does Torque have an already inplace server back end, or will this need to be coded?
Why is, all the games I have seen and played with the Torque game engine, not a patch on a small Unity game- The graphics are rather basic...(references too any games better then unity?)
Also is it powerful? I can run Crysis on high pretty easily- around 22-26 FPS, but the pacific demo lags crazy and the graphics aren't a patch on Crysis.
Now I'm not stupid, I REALLY wouldn't expect Torque to be as powerful as the crytek engine- an engine costing in the millions, but is it more powerful then Unity? (still not all that bothered because of the cheap price.)
I imagine that I'm already rather hated on these forums for being previously(and presently) a Unity3D fan.
It's a great game engine- easy to use and is Extremely powerful.
However I first started on my Game Dev path with Torque.
-I didn't understand it well. I never understood programming, the interface is...quirky...
But now 2 years down the line, I understand some basics of C# C++ Obj-C Php ASP CSS HTML, and of course my favourite-Java.
Now, I want to start my own "Brand"/Company -Venom Interactive. I have little money, and therefore cannot acquire the PRO version of unity- also it has it's draw backs- a server Back end will cost around 3k, and I just cannot afford it (I'm a multi-player type of guy). also there lack of source code also puts me off- I can't make it better if my game dev career does kick off- I would have to learn another Engine- or build one myself.
Thats what draws me to Torque.
It's cheap,
And has source code to play with.
But I still have questions...
Does Torque have an already inplace server back end, or will this need to be coded?
Why is, all the games I have seen and played with the Torque game engine, not a patch on a small Unity game- The graphics are rather basic...(references too any games better then unity?)
Also is it powerful? I can run Crysis on high pretty easily- around 22-26 FPS, but the pacific demo lags crazy and the graphics aren't a patch on Crysis.
Now I'm not stupid, I REALLY wouldn't expect Torque to be as powerful as the crytek engine- an engine costing in the millions, but is it more powerful then Unity? (still not all that bothered because of the cheap price.)
#2
I'm suppose to be watching a movie in Japanese, debugging our next map, writing the noobie guide for our title, monitoring our game sign up, and working on the cross promo novel, however I felt a bit bored and unchallenged so I thought I'd pay the GG forum a visit too. We just launched our titles pre alpha test so; I feel I can answer all of your questions well.
Our title is a MMORPG, that is based entirely inside the torque architecture, i.e. our severs are T3D, our clients are T3D, and our login system is T3D also. I am a programmer, but I do everything else too, 3d models, animation, sfx, partical fx, writing, uh the whole deal. We have modded the t3D binary, but honestly very little compared to its actual intensity. Through this, we have created everything we need for our game; we use a forum for sign up, and email activation, that our auth server uses for authorization and character tracing. Our primary db system is Mysql with an ODBC connection; our T3D servers then use this database to run the game. Each client is a striped down version of T3D that we have removed any piece of the server from so that we ultimately control the ability to run our game.
I agree that there is a lack of eye candy for T3D, other than the latest YouTube from GG. However, this is not due to a lack of engine power, more over a lack of development to its full potential (no offence anyone I follow all of your projects and love them!). Even our title is guilty of this, but we are still in such an early stage that we don't need any real flash yet. However, I am constantly surprised by people complementing the appearance of our title (I do look at it 14hrs a day so I'm negatively biased). For a closer example of torque closer to its true potential check all the new GG vids, and check the AFX vids too. A powerful and necessary part of T3D.
As for ultimately how powerful T3d is. With modification, it could easily copy the crysis engine. I love crysis, crysis2 is the best-looking game I have ever played, however the actual levels and maps are small, thus they look so good. I see no reason why torque could not replicate that the final version was only released a month ago, I doubt anyone even has their released project switch over to the final yet. I hope that our title will be close to the level of quality that crysis is by the time we go full release, and see no reason why it won't making some small sacrifices for the sake of MMO.
The true power of torque is not the engine, it is powerful and on the cutting edge, however it is far out weighed by the Torque community. Everyone is working on every type of game know and some yet know with this same engine. Torque's power comes from the vast wealth of knowledge and experience in the community and the versatility of the engine.
Our MMO is T3D, our next title a massive galactic strategy game is also T3D.
Svengali
07/06/2011 (10:59 pm)
Hello,I'm suppose to be watching a movie in Japanese, debugging our next map, writing the noobie guide for our title, monitoring our game sign up, and working on the cross promo novel, however I felt a bit bored and unchallenged so I thought I'd pay the GG forum a visit too. We just launched our titles pre alpha test so; I feel I can answer all of your questions well.
Our title is a MMORPG, that is based entirely inside the torque architecture, i.e. our severs are T3D, our clients are T3D, and our login system is T3D also. I am a programmer, but I do everything else too, 3d models, animation, sfx, partical fx, writing, uh the whole deal. We have modded the t3D binary, but honestly very little compared to its actual intensity. Through this, we have created everything we need for our game; we use a forum for sign up, and email activation, that our auth server uses for authorization and character tracing. Our primary db system is Mysql with an ODBC connection; our T3D servers then use this database to run the game. Each client is a striped down version of T3D that we have removed any piece of the server from so that we ultimately control the ability to run our game.
I agree that there is a lack of eye candy for T3D, other than the latest YouTube from GG. However, this is not due to a lack of engine power, more over a lack of development to its full potential (no offence anyone I follow all of your projects and love them!). Even our title is guilty of this, but we are still in such an early stage that we don't need any real flash yet. However, I am constantly surprised by people complementing the appearance of our title (I do look at it 14hrs a day so I'm negatively biased). For a closer example of torque closer to its true potential check all the new GG vids, and check the AFX vids too. A powerful and necessary part of T3D.
As for ultimately how powerful T3d is. With modification, it could easily copy the crysis engine. I love crysis, crysis2 is the best-looking game I have ever played, however the actual levels and maps are small, thus they look so good. I see no reason why torque could not replicate that the final version was only released a month ago, I doubt anyone even has their released project switch over to the final yet. I hope that our title will be close to the level of quality that crysis is by the time we go full release, and see no reason why it won't making some small sacrifices for the sake of MMO.
The true power of torque is not the engine, it is powerful and on the cutting edge, however it is far out weighed by the Torque community. Everyone is working on every type of game know and some yet know with this same engine. Torque's power comes from the vast wealth of knowledge and experience in the community and the versatility of the engine.
Our MMO is T3D, our next title a massive galactic strategy game is also T3D.
Svengali
#3
My first thought was to ridicule your opinion that crysis graphics are so awesome and that you imply the pacific demo is massively inferior, but personally i'd like to see you quantify your statement with more detail. I'm quite happy to concede that the pacific demo uses less than optimised models and textures in places, and probably overuses some engine features that are computationally expensive at the same time.
As far as 'powerful engines' go, exactly how do you measure, torque the same as unity the same as UDK has the ability to kill computers if you use too many 4096 texture images, 50,000 high speed phyics objects in a single scene and so on. Sure engines can be slightly better optimised for rendering, but i'm willing to bet that the small percentage of engine optimisation can be wiped out by a small handful of unoptimised models, poor texture usage and bad LODing.
The true power of a game engine as far as the developer is concerned is in its ease of use and the ability to extend the engine.
Torque networking is based on a client/server architecture, OOB features offer upto i believe 64 players per server which can operate via LAN or WAN. LAN and WAN use a master server (resources are available, theres a C# version somewhere) i believe that LAN can also be used without a master server, clients will scan the LAN (firewall permitting) and locate any compatible host games.
As a side note to having source, this leave you the ability to optimise certain portions of the rendering engine to potentially surpass those equivalent features in UDK, Unity and dare I say even cryengine, however i will leave with this parting truism, i'm willing to bet that of the millions crytek have spent over the years, the amout of money and probably time spent on the actual engine optimisations are somewhat dwarfed by the amount spent on optimising the assets that the engine uses.
07/07/2011 (3:03 pm)
Quote:Why is, all the games I have seen and played with the Torque game engine, not a patch on a small Unity game- The graphics are rather basic...Just a counter question... If you buy a book, and its garbage, do you blame the typewriter/printer? didnt think so, the same with games.
My first thought was to ridicule your opinion that crysis graphics are so awesome and that you imply the pacific demo is massively inferior, but personally i'd like to see you quantify your statement with more detail. I'm quite happy to concede that the pacific demo uses less than optimised models and textures in places, and probably overuses some engine features that are computationally expensive at the same time.
As far as 'powerful engines' go, exactly how do you measure, torque the same as unity the same as UDK has the ability to kill computers if you use too many 4096 texture images, 50,000 high speed phyics objects in a single scene and so on. Sure engines can be slightly better optimised for rendering, but i'm willing to bet that the small percentage of engine optimisation can be wiped out by a small handful of unoptimised models, poor texture usage and bad LODing.
The true power of a game engine as far as the developer is concerned is in its ease of use and the ability to extend the engine.
Torque networking is based on a client/server architecture, OOB features offer upto i believe 64 players per server which can operate via LAN or WAN. LAN and WAN use a master server (resources are available, theres a C# version somewhere) i believe that LAN can also be used without a master server, clients will scan the LAN (firewall permitting) and locate any compatible host games.
As a side note to having source, this leave you the ability to optimise certain portions of the rendering engine to potentially surpass those equivalent features in UDK, Unity and dare I say even cryengine, however i will leave with this parting truism, i'm willing to bet that of the millions crytek have spent over the years, the amout of money and probably time spent on the actual engine optimisations are somewhat dwarfed by the amount spent on optimising the assets that the engine uses.
#4
The client/server architecture is written in C#?
Interesting, 'couse I gonna start a 3 month course in C#.
07/07/2011 (3:49 pm)
@BloodknightThe client/server architecture is written in C#?
Interesting, 'couse I gonna start a 3 month course in C#.
#5
07/07/2011 (4:54 pm)
no, the only master server resource i could get working was the C# one, the others all relied on tech i'm not familar with, perl, php other linuxy non windowy complicated stuff :D
#6
07/07/2011 (5:57 pm)
:D I see. I might also not get into non-windowy stuff any soon :D 
#7
You also don't need a master server, the client can connect directly to the server's IP number. I have friends who connect directly to my server whenever I want them to test new features. There is a resource or a forum thread that tells how to do this.
07/07/2011 (10:54 pm)
The amount of players on a server is based on the server connection. There is no hard coded number, just what your server and its connection can handle. You also don't need a master server, the client can connect directly to the server's IP number. I have friends who connect directly to my server whenever I want them to test new features. There is a resource or a forum thread that tells how to do this.
#8
*oh, and on a side note, the c master server is really just the framework for one, as is, it crashes with the slightest stress put on it. We had to jump back to GG master server for our tests, which sucks from a point on independance. Its been stated before, but GG feel free to share your master server code with us! Or give us a hint on where you licenced it from! lol
07/08/2011 (7:25 am)
Yeah, only our login server reports to a masterserver, and the rest sit just waiting for connections. All though I'm not sure I agree with the tone, I have to agree with the wisdom of bloodknight, ulimately it does come down too the quality of your models and textures, this was one of the hardest things to figure out about game design, even though it seems so simple.*oh, and on a side note, the c master server is really just the framework for one, as is, it crashes with the slightest stress put on it. We had to jump back to GG master server for our tests, which sucks from a point on independance. Its been stated before, but GG feel free to share your master server code with us! Or give us a hint on where you licenced it from! lol
#9
Umm, have you looked at open tnl?? It's torques own networking stripped out and used for creating masterservers. (it may even have a demo server included)
07/09/2011 (6:32 am)
Quote:but GG feel free to share your master server code with us! Or give us a hint on where you licenced it from! lol
Umm, have you looked at open tnl?? It's torques own networking stripped out and used for creating masterservers. (it may even have a demo server included)
#10
Torque seems pretty good. I'll also take a peek at the opentln
07/09/2011 (12:47 pm)
Ok, thanks. Torque seems pretty good. I'll also take a peek at the opentln
#11
In short - the reason Torque demos don't look great is because GG focuses on writing the engine, not making pretty graphics for it.
I would also hazard to guess that professional artists would be more attracted to Unity, from what I've heard of its interface. Meaning that Unity games may tend to look 'better' (on whatever scale you're measuring by) simply due to the fact that the games are made by artists, not programmers. But that's just my guess.
07/10/2011 (7:13 pm)
Quote:My first thought was to ridicule your opinion that crysis graphics are so awesome and that you imply the pacific demo is massively inferior, but personally i'd like to see you quantify your statement with more detail.I hate to be a stirrer and not really add anything of value to the topic, but I couldn't let this go. The T3D demos, lovely as they are and unprecedented for a GG engine, really aren't all that great on an objective scale. I can very well understand someone having worries about the engine's capabilities from what they see in the demos. I understand that GG isn't a production house, and it's definitely the assets that make/break the scene, not the engine - I'm not expecting GG to produce Crysis-level assets for demos. But I think it's a fair enough question, and shouldn't be greeted with hostility. I even raised an eyebrow at things like the whacked weapon aim in the soldier art... even though I know exactly what to fix, and that I'll be using my own art and everything in any case, it's not a stunning endorsement of the engine or the tremendous amount of hard work that GG have put into it over the years.
In short - the reason Torque demos don't look great is because GG focuses on writing the engine, not making pretty graphics for it.
I would also hazard to guess that professional artists would be more attracted to Unity, from what I've heard of its interface. Meaning that Unity games may tend to look 'better' (on whatever scale you're measuring by) simply due to the fact that the games are made by artists, not programmers. But that's just my guess.
#12
*
Again, just my opinion.
07/15/2011 (5:49 pm)
My personal opinion of Torque is that it's by far the easiest and least expensive engine for me to mess with, to come up with a very quick 'proof of concept', and to develop a game in no time at all. The group of experts in the forums (all of you guys) make life so easy! The fancy graphics and special effects can be added later by the professional publishing company that buys the rights (think EA, 3DO, Broderbund, whoever). They have the millions of dollars to pay for pretty pictures. Give me an engine I can tear apart and modify quickly any day.*
Again, just my opinion.
Torque 3D Owner Alexander Krause
Coming soon...
Unity?! How dare you...Just kidding ;p
Most people here in the Torque community I encountered a very rational. Some use Torque and Unity for different subjects. Everybody is welcome, unless you break the rules. If so the Garagegames Ninjas might come. Anyway...
I'm not a coder, yet, but as far as I understood every Torque game is a multiplayer game with a network architecture. There is a master-server for testing purposes, but you have to use your own server in the end.
Download the free demo and check it out.
The pacific demo has some history of not being optimized. I got greatly improved for the 1.1 release according GG stuff. So it depends on your optimization how the performance will be, e.g. draw calls, object/poly count, etc.