How can indy game makers connect
by Patrick David West · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 04/12/2011 (9:39 am) · 38 replies
Hello everyone. I have been involved with video games for over 20 years. As a late bloomer I have been working on my degree in Game Software Development. I especially enjoy the MMO experience, though there are really few games which marry the social aspect with truly intriguing game-play.
When I visit game design forums, such as gameDev.net, 3dPalace.com, Dream-in-code.com, etc, there seems to be no shortage of individuals who are attempting to create his own game. After following their progress, I notice that they all end up abandoning their projects. Of course, when you consider the amount of time and dedication involved in creating a video game, any though of creating a game alone seems impossible (especially where RPGs and MMOs are concerned).
I have studied computer science for years and attained a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science in 1997. I understand the Software Development Cycle and am focusing my knowledge in the area of video games. This means to say that I know programming/scripting, Modelling/texturing/animation, Game engine design, physics, networking, etc. Even with this knowledge I am in no means capable of (nor foolish enough to consider) creating the next big MMO alone.
I believe that those people who attempt to create a game alone lets their artistic expression and ambitiousness override their common sense. This is applaudable, but, in the end, nothing is really accomplished. But, what if many people could connect and work together to create a game?
There are many forums on the WWW which allow game designers, programmers, and artists to discuss potential resolutions for problems they are facing. However, there are no real social networking sites for individual willing to donate time, energy, ambition, and ideas towards developing a real product. People talk about "WOW killers," and the "Next-gen" games they are hoping to make. Unless you have 20-50 friends who are all committed to working on a project (Which I can barely find 2 or 3), you are stuck with sending a resume to an established game studio and hope that you will be hired to help develop their games (usually a sandbox style game meant to compete with an already established successful game, like WOW).
Many people say that there are "imagination" steps required before adding programmers, animators, modelers and the more technical assets to your team. I disagree. The first true hurdle in game creation is the Game Design Document. [Here is a very good template for a game design document which is usable for any style of game: http://www.distancelearning101.net/interm_prog/2nd_qtr_excr/video_game_deisgn_template_files/game_document_template.doc] I personally think that it is a team effort. Technical members are as artistic and imaginative as story writes and artists...as well as the game designer himself/herself. This is especially true when working as an independent group. For instance, as a game designer I have a primary idea of how the game works, will look, and what its goals are. But working with a team which composes of all development departments, a better product cam be created and time will be saved with implementation problems and concerns. One person can have wonderful ideas, but ideas agreed upon by a group tends to be better.
To get to my primary point, how can individual game makers connect and form true teams to make the games people really want? Where do we find these people? How can we all connect and truly spend our time productively, rather than wasting it alone?
When I visit game design forums, such as gameDev.net, 3dPalace.com, Dream-in-code.com, etc, there seems to be no shortage of individuals who are attempting to create his own game. After following their progress, I notice that they all end up abandoning their projects. Of course, when you consider the amount of time and dedication involved in creating a video game, any though of creating a game alone seems impossible (especially where RPGs and MMOs are concerned).
I have studied computer science for years and attained a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science in 1997. I understand the Software Development Cycle and am focusing my knowledge in the area of video games. This means to say that I know programming/scripting, Modelling/texturing/animation, Game engine design, physics, networking, etc. Even with this knowledge I am in no means capable of (nor foolish enough to consider) creating the next big MMO alone.
I believe that those people who attempt to create a game alone lets their artistic expression and ambitiousness override their common sense. This is applaudable, but, in the end, nothing is really accomplished. But, what if many people could connect and work together to create a game?
There are many forums on the WWW which allow game designers, programmers, and artists to discuss potential resolutions for problems they are facing. However, there are no real social networking sites for individual willing to donate time, energy, ambition, and ideas towards developing a real product. People talk about "WOW killers," and the "Next-gen" games they are hoping to make. Unless you have 20-50 friends who are all committed to working on a project (Which I can barely find 2 or 3), you are stuck with sending a resume to an established game studio and hope that you will be hired to help develop their games (usually a sandbox style game meant to compete with an already established successful game, like WOW).
Many people say that there are "imagination" steps required before adding programmers, animators, modelers and the more technical assets to your team. I disagree. The first true hurdle in game creation is the Game Design Document. [Here is a very good template for a game design document which is usable for any style of game: http://www.distancelearning101.net/interm_prog/2nd_qtr_excr/video_game_deisgn_template_files/game_document_template.doc] I personally think that it is a team effort. Technical members are as artistic and imaginative as story writes and artists...as well as the game designer himself/herself. This is especially true when working as an independent group. For instance, as a game designer I have a primary idea of how the game works, will look, and what its goals are. But working with a team which composes of all development departments, a better product cam be created and time will be saved with implementation problems and concerns. One person can have wonderful ideas, but ideas agreed upon by a group tends to be better.
To get to my primary point, how can individual game makers connect and form true teams to make the games people really want? Where do we find these people? How can we all connect and truly spend our time productively, rather than wasting it alone?
#2
05/25/2011 (9:31 am)
You see, I AM a game developer. It is not the organization or leadership that is the problem, it is finding people who actually wish to contribute. And getting people to make a serious effort. 
#3
thats the biggest issue. what ive seen alot of is that everyone wants to make thier own game, but cant afford (normally) to pay for the help.... but if an indie developer helps someone else on thier game, since it isnt "thier" game, they want to get paid for thier services - even if they couldnt pay someone themselves.
Is this true? not always, its a generalized statement.
05/25/2011 (10:21 am)
"But it's kind of difficult, because everyone have their own things to do, and it's going to be hard to get people to join others. "thats the biggest issue. what ive seen alot of is that everyone wants to make thier own game, but cant afford (normally) to pay for the help.... but if an indie developer helps someone else on thier game, since it isnt "thier" game, they want to get paid for thier services - even if they couldnt pay someone themselves.
Is this true? not always, its a generalized statement.
#4
05/25/2011 (3:49 pm)
Why can't some of the developers around here just get together to work on a single project and draw up and sign contracts that split the profits (based on job functions) once the game is out?
#5
05/25/2011 (4:17 pm)
some do, but in general the issue becaomes "who's project, why not mine?" and "what if it doesnt sell?" 
#6
It is a challenging aspect to go through, especially for projects like MMO's, a great deal of work must be put in to get a team to agree on one thing, which is why when searching for one, you need to provide as many details as possible, just simply saying, let's make an MMO won't get you very far.
05/25/2011 (7:35 pm)
Not to mention the: Group A: "Let's do project A", Group B: "No, Let's do project B"... and then nothing gets done.It is a challenging aspect to go through, especially for projects like MMO's, a great deal of work must be put in to get a team to agree on one thing, which is why when searching for one, you need to provide as many details as possible, just simply saying, let's make an MMO won't get you very far.
#7
It is a hard, hard thing to do =)
05/25/2011 (7:57 pm)
Putting together a group of (unpaid) indies usually requires a very strong and charismatic leader who is able to get people excited about a single game idea (above their own excitement for their game ideas) and has the skills necessary to keep motivating the team to keep working on it when the excitement shifts to work.It is a hard, hard thing to do =)
#8
A: is 3D (1st person, 3rd person, FPS, RPG, Blah, Blah, Blah, doesn't matter)
B: has a Medieval, Sci-Fi, or Post-Apocalyptic theme
/end of criteria
as a matter of fact, I'm currently working on Post-Apocalyptic assets at the moment...
Here's a couple of samples:
Notes:
All Vegetation takes advantage of the T3D Wind Emitter [ red, green, blue vertex painting. ]
Many non-vegetation models have embedded animation [ models with parts moving, swaying, rotating, etc. ]
Several models utilize the animated texture capabilities of T3D engine [ blinking lights, flickering lights, etc. ]
All models come with low poly convex collision meshes [ multiple meshes are used to maintain convex shapes. ]
05/25/2011 (8:58 pm)
I would help anyone's project, so long as it:A: is 3D (1st person, 3rd person, FPS, RPG, Blah, Blah, Blah, doesn't matter)
B: has a Medieval, Sci-Fi, or Post-Apocalyptic theme
/end of criteria
as a matter of fact, I'm currently working on Post-Apocalyptic assets at the moment...
Here's a couple of samples:
Notes:
All Vegetation takes advantage of the T3D Wind Emitter [ red, green, blue vertex painting. ]
Many non-vegetation models have embedded animation [ models with parts moving, swaying, rotating, etc. ]
Several models utilize the animated texture capabilities of T3D engine [ blinking lights, flickering lights, etc. ]
All models come with low poly convex collision meshes [ multiple meshes are used to maintain convex shapes. ]
#9
05/25/2011 (10:04 pm)
Very nice work Randy! 
#10
I'm a decent modeler myself and can do pretty much every filler task on a project, as long as you're not asking me to make characters that is (working on that)
I'm available if i find the project interesting.
05/26/2011 (5:44 am)
Gloryhole is a city?I'm a decent modeler myself and can do pretty much every filler task on a project, as long as you're not asking me to make characters that is (working on that)
I'm available if i find the project interesting.
#11
05/26/2011 (5:50 am)
lol, yes Gloryhole was a town in the movie Cherry 2000, Bartertown was a town in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, and Tiretown was a town in Solar Babies. All post-apocalyptic movies.
#12
www.where-game-makers-meet.com
hmmm....... that almost sounds entertaining.....
05/26/2011 (12:20 pm)
after thinking for a bit.... it may not be a bad idea if a web site was set up for projects and programmers/artist. make a general form to fill out with info on the project you have and see if you can drum up any business - something more than "my ideas are private - email me if u want to know what they are" and a form for artist/programmers/whoever to post thier skill set, paid/unpaid/trade/etc, availablity and whatever else..... have an IRC and msg system, etc..... that way people can use that as a place to "hook up"www.where-game-makers-meet.com
hmmm....... that almost sounds entertaining.....
#13
Indy does seem to equate to "low funding" but the idea of independent is that people make make games they believe in..the money will come (if the project ever makes it to distribution) if the developers take it seriously.
Everyone has an idea for a game, otherwise they would not be interested in game development. Games are another way for people to express themselves artistically. When a person is employed by a company, they are forced to work on ideas created by a specific group of writers and designer. Independent teams usually do not have this limitation, though some guidelines must be put into place when creating a game concept as a team.
1) A single person MUST be elected as a senior designer. This is not to say that he or she gets to do whatever. On the contrary, this person is the TIE-BREAKER. When ideas begin to conflict, this person makes the determination as to which direction the team will focus their efforts, and even which parts of the "dismissed" paths will be incorporated into the design.
2)EVERYONE is allowed to make suggestions regardless of department and expertise. Ideas must be considered carefully no matter how outrageous or strange they may be. Some of the biggest and most valuable gems have been discovered inside a seemingly useless chunk of rubbish.
3) Changes can only be made during the design phase and pre-production phase. Once production has started the only "design" concerns are implementation.
4) Stay away from SANDBOX. If you are indy, the test of success is not how well you can implement an already familiar idea and/or system, but rather how innovative you can be. For all you who want to develop an MMO me included) stay away from the WOW template. There are some who will tell you that if a template is successful them use it to your own advantage. I beg to differ. If you are an INDY group, then your success DEPENDS on originality!
One of the things that many people do not realize is, you do not have to complete a full game before contributors (indy-employees) can receive compensation (at least a percentage of compensation). Creating a workable/playable demo can go a long way towards receiving financing to complete the full project. Most Independents don't get that far or do not realize that this is a good way to get started.
Here we are at Garage Games, discussing our future ambitions. Those here have SOME knowledge and talent in different areas relating to video games. We always say "someone should.." "if only there was..." "why can't someone..." etc. Instead, what if we come together and create. Express ourselves. Find others who are our kins in gaming. Start networking and bring a shiny, bright, and amazing new face to the industry...and indies?
05/26/2011 (7:42 pm)
You see! This is why I posted this thread. The problem I see is that there are over a hundred-thousand hobbyists who are learning and working on developing their skills in many areas of game development. The problem is that they have very little experience working on team projects and do not have much to add to their portfolios (since most would love to get hired into a blockbuster company).Indy does seem to equate to "low funding" but the idea of independent is that people make make games they believe in..the money will come (if the project ever makes it to distribution) if the developers take it seriously.
Everyone has an idea for a game, otherwise they would not be interested in game development. Games are another way for people to express themselves artistically. When a person is employed by a company, they are forced to work on ideas created by a specific group of writers and designer. Independent teams usually do not have this limitation, though some guidelines must be put into place when creating a game concept as a team.
1) A single person MUST be elected as a senior designer. This is not to say that he or she gets to do whatever. On the contrary, this person is the TIE-BREAKER. When ideas begin to conflict, this person makes the determination as to which direction the team will focus their efforts, and even which parts of the "dismissed" paths will be incorporated into the design.
2)EVERYONE is allowed to make suggestions regardless of department and expertise. Ideas must be considered carefully no matter how outrageous or strange they may be. Some of the biggest and most valuable gems have been discovered inside a seemingly useless chunk of rubbish.
3) Changes can only be made during the design phase and pre-production phase. Once production has started the only "design" concerns are implementation.
4) Stay away from SANDBOX. If you are indy, the test of success is not how well you can implement an already familiar idea and/or system, but rather how innovative you can be. For all you who want to develop an MMO me included) stay away from the WOW template. There are some who will tell you that if a template is successful them use it to your own advantage. I beg to differ. If you are an INDY group, then your success DEPENDS on originality!
One of the things that many people do not realize is, you do not have to complete a full game before contributors (indy-employees) can receive compensation (at least a percentage of compensation). Creating a workable/playable demo can go a long way towards receiving financing to complete the full project. Most Independents don't get that far or do not realize that this is a good way to get started.
Here we are at Garage Games, discussing our future ambitions. Those here have SOME knowledge and talent in different areas relating to video games. We always say "someone should.." "if only there was..." "why can't someone..." etc. Instead, what if we come together and create. Express ourselves. Find others who are our kins in gaming. Start networking and bring a shiny, bright, and amazing new face to the industry...and indies?
#14
Every MMORPG relies on a specific system:
1) Choose a race/species
2) choose a class/profession
3) Choose starting abilities (or gain them at a specific level)
4) Complete quests and grind mobs to gain experience
5) Gain a level in your class/profession and spend points on abilities
6) Determine your ability path and follow the tree
7) etc.
What if players created/defined their own "Classes/professions"? What if there were no Character Levels? What if every everything was 100% skill-based and you train skills directly by using them (Ultima Online anyone)? What if the terms Wizard, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Cleric, Fighter, etc., were simply player created titles. Players could create their own group, Watchtower Wizard for instance, and define all the skills (and and skill levels) required to obtain this title? What about allowing players to TRAIN each other? Create schools, universities, cults, guilds, etc.? Instead of grinding, people are training and building. That Great Read Dragon? Beat it with skill! EVERY encounter is dangerous. Item level requirements? Ridiculous! How can an object know how skillful its bearer is.
The point I am making is that you do NOT need to follow other peoples roads. Be unique and start your own trends and innovations.
BTW, these are all ideas in which I have incorporated into my own MMO design, and I have already worked out how they build the foundation to a new style of gaming.
05/26/2011 (8:04 pm)
Speaking of ideas and originality...I will give everyone a freebie. MMOs are generally role-playing games. I know there are action/adventure, strategy, first-person shooters, etc., but the main niche in MMO is the MMORPG.Every MMORPG relies on a specific system:
1) Choose a race/species
2) choose a class/profession
3) Choose starting abilities (or gain them at a specific level)
4) Complete quests and grind mobs to gain experience
5) Gain a level in your class/profession and spend points on abilities
6) Determine your ability path and follow the tree
7) etc.
What if players created/defined their own "Classes/professions"? What if there were no Character Levels? What if every everything was 100% skill-based and you train skills directly by using them (Ultima Online anyone)? What if the terms Wizard, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Cleric, Fighter, etc., were simply player created titles. Players could create their own group, Watchtower Wizard for instance, and define all the skills (and and skill levels) required to obtain this title? What about allowing players to TRAIN each other? Create schools, universities, cults, guilds, etc.? Instead of grinding, people are training and building. That Great Read Dragon? Beat it with skill! EVERY encounter is dangerous. Item level requirements? Ridiculous! How can an object know how skillful its bearer is.
The point I am making is that you do NOT need to follow other peoples roads. Be unique and start your own trends and innovations.
BTW, these are all ideas in which I have incorporated into my own MMO design, and I have already worked out how they build the foundation to a new style of gaming.
#15
Towards the original thread, I think that it is definitely time for a game development-based social network. Something of a match-making service/discussion site with the kinds of features that Indies need in order to form and work with teams. GarageGames, when it first began, was a great forum for that kind of thing, but the field has grown a bit more sophisticated, and I think a site needs to come up to address those needs.
05/27/2011 (7:50 am)
@Patrick: There are several games that are taking a skills-based approach, and I think it works out really well. Of course, some of these games fall short in other areas, mainly because the perceived difficulty in solving some problems leads some developers to throw their hands up and call it quits.Towards the original thread, I think that it is definitely time for a game development-based social network. Something of a match-making service/discussion site with the kinds of features that Indies need in order to form and work with teams. GarageGames, when it first began, was a great forum for that kind of thing, but the field has grown a bit more sophisticated, and I think a site needs to come up to address those needs.
#16
As far as developers "throw[ing] their hands up" is due to the project being flawed from design. People want it all; cutting edge graphics, immersible game-play, endless content, powerful systems that allow them to do almost anything, etc. The problem is where do the developers start? Cutting edge graphics might draw people to take interest in the game, but such graphics equate to less power and detail in game-play mechanics. However, dedicating your time to a game which is amazing as far as game-play is concerned will draw more fans and higher ratings, which in turn draws new followers. Graphic updated can come later, and fans of the first game are nearly guaranteed to purchase the second version.
As far as my original thread is concerned, I hear a lot of support for such a site. How about we create a team to try and develop the site? I am willing to dedicate my own time and money to see this happen :)
05/27/2011 (8:38 am)
Ted. I agree with you, however, the ways in which skill-based RPG's have been implemented have not worked well with the other elements of the game. The best skill-based implementation to date, in my opinion of course, is Ultima Online. Ultima came to use in the late 90's (around 1998) as a isometric 2d MMORPG. Thirteen or so years later, Ultima Online still has a thriving community and dedicated fans. One of the primary reasons for this is their skill-based system.As far as developers "throw[ing] their hands up" is due to the project being flawed from design. People want it all; cutting edge graphics, immersible game-play, endless content, powerful systems that allow them to do almost anything, etc. The problem is where do the developers start? Cutting edge graphics might draw people to take interest in the game, but such graphics equate to less power and detail in game-play mechanics. However, dedicating your time to a game which is amazing as far as game-play is concerned will draw more fans and higher ratings, which in turn draws new followers. Graphic updated can come later, and fans of the first game are nearly guaranteed to purchase the second version.
As far as my original thread is concerned, I hear a lot of support for such a site. How about we create a team to try and develop the site? I am willing to dedicate my own time and money to see this happen :)
#17
Not necessarily. If your design is done solidly, then graphics are simply a matter of style. The main problem with it is that if you dedicate more financial resources towards art than you do design, you'll have problems designing in depth, due to low manpower there. But graphics in and of itself doesn't hurt gameplay mechanics.
@Patrick: I have server space. What kind of web skills do you have?
05/27/2011 (8:45 am)
Quote:Cutting edge graphics might draw people to take interest in the game, but such graphics equate to less power and detail in game-play mechanics.
Not necessarily. If your design is done solidly, then graphics are simply a matter of style. The main problem with it is that if you dedicate more financial resources towards art than you do design, you'll have problems designing in depth, due to low manpower there. But graphics in and of itself doesn't hurt gameplay mechanics.
@Patrick: I have server space. What kind of web skills do you have?
#18
however I don't like to write websites from scratch every time. Reinventing the wheel over and over again gets old. I usually take a preexisting template of one of the current content management systems and I alter the website's look, functions, and features to fit my needs.
Not done yet, but My Site.
It would be nice to have a place to meet other Indies and "hook up", like an IND-eHarmony... :P
05/27/2011 (9:34 am)
I know html and php...however I don't like to write websites from scratch every time. Reinventing the wheel over and over again gets old. I usually take a preexisting template of one of the current content management systems and I alter the website's look, functions, and features to fit my needs.
Not done yet, but My Site.
It would be nice to have a place to meet other Indies and "hook up", like an IND-eHarmony... :P
#19
05/27/2011 (10:08 am)
Kyrah, send me an e-mail if you would please, we have a project we would like to see if you are interested in.
#20
As far as my web skills...I am fluent in XML, HTML/CSS, Javascript, PhP, as well as Adobe Flash/Photoshop.
Randy, your point is well taken, although, if we are talking about creating a place where video game design, development, and production is the core concept, then we should take every opportunity to provide an environment which appeals to game developers specifically.
05/27/2011 (2:05 pm)
Ted, I understand your point regarding graphics. However, designers always say they want realistic environments and characters, and extremely detailed (high poly) objects etc. If the pc (or console) spends too many resources rendering scenes, then game-play will suffer as it would not be able to be as in-depth without lowering fps. As far as my web skills...I am fluent in XML, HTML/CSS, Javascript, PhP, as well as Adobe Flash/Photoshop.
Randy, your point is well taken, although, if we are talking about creating a place where video game design, development, and production is the core concept, then we should take every opportunity to provide an environment which appeals to game developers specifically.
Geradine Jiravanichsakul
But it's kind of difficult, because everyone have their own things to do, and it's going to be hard to get people to join others. And who would take control to make sure things get done or who would organize the files?
If you end up finding the answers, please let me know too! :)