XNA GS 4.0 is Here!

#21 @Aaron:
1) you're using the CEV... Community Enhanced Version :)
2) The CEV keeps backward compatibility
3) If there are no sulutions... why to worry? If there are solutions... why to worry? :)

#22 Thanks Pino! These knowledge injections are helping out a bunch! :-)

#23 PANIC ! PANIC ! TEH SHIPS ON FIRE ! TEH SHIPS ON FIRE !

Maybe it's just me but I'm finding it hard to keep up with what's going on with InstantAction / GarageGames and the Torque product permutations. I may be stupid but can folks clear up some facts ?

First we had Torque x in its 2d and 3d variants.Around August 2009 I paid 150 bucks for a studio license of version, think it was on 3.13 at that time.

Around the same time I got TGB 2D for 100 bucks as I wanted to see how easily I could port projects back and forth with a view to getting the iTorque TGB and eventually release to XBLIG and iPhone, thats on the back burner at the moment...but then....around about 3.14 there was the whole Creators Club version of Torque X which flew right over my head;I missed that boat completely...I mean I'm a paid up member of Creators Club with my yearly subscription, etc did that mean I was entitled to a "gratis" version of Torque X ? (Even tho I had previously bought it!?) I never heard a word from either GarageGames/Instant Action nor Creators Club...

Then in 3.15 TX2d and TX3d were merged as "one" product; ok fair enough I heard the 3D version editor wasn't so hot so I shouldn't grumble I just got an extra for "free"

Now at the moment we have Pino様 and others being a beacon of light doing bug fixes, farseer integration to the CEV version but with XNA 4.0 being released it's down to poor ole TX community members to prep the changes to engine and editor and IA wont be investing or developing in Torque X any further ?

Or are IA planning to release a "whole new" Torque X ?

Certainly leaves me a bit confused and worried, especially as I quit my job this year to go full time game dev; I chose Torque as the fastest way to get something out to see if its a viable "employment option".... but as Matthew said were paying for the privilege to an "open source" project that's being run by Pino(admirably so).

So at current state of play its down to the community to dev its own xna4.0 compatible version ?

Is Torque X at the end of its shelf life ? or will there be a "new" version that is all xna4.0 and Windows Phone encompassing ?

Sorry if this is a bit ranty / anxious; tis a web forum afterall

#24 @Hoddie: Maybe you missed August Torque X Status Update :) The new Torque X will first be focused on WP7

Quote:Xbox360 is not the goal for 1.0. We have decided to focus on the phone as the primary platform for 1.0

leaving Xbox 360 behind for a later release. So the current Torque X is to be considered end-of-lifed.

I'm still waiting to get access to the 4.0 port Tom mentioned (to speed up CEV port). Anyway that will be only a guideline because Torque X CEV is much richer than the official 3.1.5 so I'll be impossible to use IA 4.0 Windows port "as is".

On a side note: CEV is not Open Source, it's only available to Torque X licensees ;)

#25 @Pino : Cheers, So the boats not on fire.... but its sinking ?! =)

I had read the initial post but hadn't followed up on all the replies; when I saw as far as "That being said we didn't want to leave you guys and your projects stranded." and "We are also looking to provide some of our R&D to select community members that should aid in porting to XNA 4.0. More details on that to follow."

I had presumed there would be "some" form of upgrade in the "new Torque X 1.0" but after reading the other posts it appears not >< and its primarily focused on Windows 7 phone. (I've put a comment up on that forum with some views)

So with the 4.0 port that Tom mentioned, that will cover the "base" 3.15 release from IA without any of the CEV enhancements, but they will come eventually ?

I would be more than happy if we can at least get the "base" features of TX3.15 to run on XNA 4.0, least that way peeps with existing projects can submit to XBLIG.

Sorry, sounds terribly demanding/selfish of me, just leaves me in a bit of a conundrum; I was planning a release for Autumn or Winter 2010.... where would we be if it weren't for the community !?

Thank goodness there some dedicated pro's out there pulling things together I wish I could contribute but as an "end user" I wouldn't even know where to begin on porting from 3.1 to 4

Fingers crossed, knock on wood, etc the port goes smoothly and wishing best of luck and gratitude to those who are undertaking it m~_~m

#26 @Hoddie: it is my understanding (reading IA posts) that they will give us some help, knowledge help, but the current codebase will not be upgraded by them because there are not enough resources and time. If your XBLIG game will be ready by the end of the year I think you'll be able to publish it using the current release. The problems come with 2011 I guess, but Microsoft hasn't set any deadline yet so maybe they'll think this through and give the CCO cummunity more time to adjust... keep all your 20 fingers crossed... I know, it's difficult to use mouse and keyboard keeping all the fingers crossed... but that's part of the job description when it comes to software development :)

#27 I wonder if IA will provide the existing license holders a Torque X 4.0 version which will be available from their indivdual product page or wheather the community will have to host this? A CEV binary would be nice for most end users.

#28 Honestly.. To the community (pino and company) for keep torque x somewhat working.. I really appreciate all the hard work.. But given torques history with torque x.. Im not holding my breath for any updates or fixes.. or even the new torque x.. For whatever reason.. When it comes to torque x.. It never has been or probably will ever be a priority.. Torque x has so many freakin' issues.. The entire engine already needed a complete teardown and rebuild.. Now with microsoft releasing 4.0 and the many changes.. There is NO WAY Possible the engine could be patched for commercial deployment. It sucked before .. There are no words in the dictionary that could explain the frustration youd experience with a patched limp engine with new 4.0 express. I know what torque x coulda, woulda, shoulda been .. but at this point.. I honestly think its best to let it go. I had projects on the table myself.. But you fix 1 major issue.. and then ignite other issues.. After months and months of that.. Its no longer a viable engine.

Im not knocking Torque or Instant ACtion at all for their decision to limit torque x updates.. I understand their reasoning perfectly.. The microsoft xna and upcoming 4 platform does not look like it will put a significant dent in the marketplace, so why expect thousands and thousands of developers to want to purchase the engine, and why expect hundreds of thousands of games to be deployed. Those are the numbers that a platform needs in order for a company to really set aside resources to update and provide a AAA quality engine. Thats why there are not more then 5 commercial xna engines that deploy to xbox 360, No ONE believes in it as a business model. Trust me, I tried to justify this engine for a long time.. Eventually after reality keeps pimp smacking you upside the face, you get the point.

#29 Well, since Flat Red Ball and Sunburn are both updating for xna 4.0, there's really no reason to stick around with torque x. And certainly no reason to pursue any other torque products as they can't even maintain their current products adequately as soon as a new shiny platform comes around.

Jumping ship and swimming like mad to products that are actually supported.

#30 Well, seeing as how TX to XNA 4.0 needs our help, I'm with you pino. Anything we can do to help you port TorqueX to XNA 4.0.

Originally when i read that blog I thought it was just saying Win7 phone stuff was going to be sold separately.

When I read it again, it sounded more like what you are saying.

#31 @Steve

Wow Redball and Sunburn look pretty darned amazing.When I started scoping toolsets last year Torque was the only option I could find. I wonder what other XNA engines are out there ? Ziggyware used to be a great resource for that kinda thing. Tho I must confess I'm reluctant to leave Torque after I paid for it and going through the learning curve, only to pay money again and start another learning curve...

#32 Guys,
FRB is very limited and Sunburn is not a game engine... actually I've on my to-do list an optional Sunburn integration in Torque X ;)

#33 Torque is much superior to Flat Red Ball.I used FLB before coming to torque. Suffice to say I really enjoy using Torque. Torque makes things so much easier.

#34 LOL is there anything you cant do Pino !? GO Go Super Torque-man!

Ah well I will stick with Torque I guess !

#35 @Hoddie: actually with my limited time there is a lot that I wish to do but I just can't.

@All:
Just to make this clear: I'm pissed off like you about this whole thing, maybe even more because I've wagered my pension on entering in the game industry by the indies backdoor. I believe that we have to limit the damage to the minimum and keep going: to me isn't an option to start over also because the only alternative is to write my own engine... but I've no time and I'm not a rendering expert... why would I do such a thing? That's why one buys a ready-to-go engine... well in our case we buy the only one available and I guess now we need to support it as well if we want to publish our games anytime soon.

#36 I'm in a quandry myself. I have not bought a source license. And now I read that the current version (3.1.5) will not be brought to 4.0 instead they are creating another product and discontinuing 3.1.5.

I liked the product overall. I was able to quickly get a small prototype up and running. My question, it looks like Pino(and others?) will be bringing the CEV up to 4.0. which is great. BUT, why should I give GG money for a discontinued product that the community will be bringing up to the latest version? Is it worth it? Should I just go back to developing in XNA directly?

#37 Re: post #36

Kevin, I am in a similar situation as you are, except I already paid $200 for TorqueX (TX3.1.5) in August 2010. If IA plans to orphan the product (3.1.5) any time soon, then I think that IA should either offer a full refund for recent purchasers of TorqueX or they should offer a free or vastly reduced price upgrade to such purchasers to TX4.0 when its published.

While I realize that IA does not make the decisions at Microsoft to discontinue XBLIG support for XNA 3.1.5, then IMHO the very least IA should do is one of the following:

1. If technically possible and feasible, patch or upgrade their 3.1.5 engine to make it compatible with XNA 4.0 without adding the new extra features of the planned TorqueX 4.0. This should not be the responsibility of TorqueX's user base, but rather IA's responsibility.

2. If IA is unwilling to do option #1, then IA should financially compensate people (like Pino and others) who do it for them.

3. If IA is unwilling to do option #1, then IA should offer full refunds for recent purchasers of TorqueX.

4. IA should offer to TorqueX 3.1.5 purchasers, particularly recent purchasers, a free upgrade to TorqueX 4.0 even if with a reduced feature list to that comparable to 3.1.5..

5. Alternatively to option #4, IA should offer a very low priced, if not free limited-time upgrade offer from 3.1.5 to 4.0 which includes the extra new features of 4.0. Other software companies do this for their paying customers, when a person purchases a version of a product near its life-end cycle (Adobe, Corel I think, Native-Instruments, and others). And those companies do that even when their prior versions are still working to do what they are supposed to do, unlike now the new situation with 4.0 lockout from XBLIG on Microsoft's part, which renders TorqueX 3.1.5 entirely useless for its intended purpose (XBLIG distribution). Perhaps IA will do this, I think it's only fair, but somehow I tend to feel skeptical. But who knows? We'll see. This time-limited upgrade offer for recent purchasers should be for either free or for a very reduced upgrade price.

This isn't fair for people who have purchased TorqueX. It isn't fair if it means they now must abandon this product altogether because it will not work with XNA 4.0 and therefore will not work for distributing games on XBLIG.

It also isn't fair if it means that they must spend their own time and resources contributing to the CEV of TorqueX, which Pino is spearheading / leading.

Had I known this a month or two ago, I never would have bought TorqueX recently. Instead, I would have waited it out without purchasing this product to see if and when IA will release TorqueX 3.1.5 (i.e. by making it compatible with XNA 4.0) in the future. The whole reason I bought TorqueX was to be able to create and deploy games specifically for the Xbox 360 on XBLIG. While it seems like a good engine, I don't plan to ever use it for Windows-based games, and even if I did, half of its value and functionality (namely, Xbox 360 target distribution) has now evaporated.

So, if you want my opinion, I personally would wait it out to see what IA does with TorqueX and XNA 4.0. I definitely would not purchase 3.1.5 at this time. And if you develop directly in XNA in the meantime without an engine, the time and effort you spend in learning that will probably be a good long-term investment, even if you also do use TorqueX 4.0 in the future.

I really really really hope that there is a decent upgrade path from 3.1.5 to 4.0 particularly for recent purchasers, or else I feel like I just wasted $200. How IA handles this situation for its paying customers is going to be a huge factor on whether or not I myself will be a future customer of IA. If IA mishandles this situation, then I will probably purchase Sunburn instead and develop using XNA directly. That would be a real shame, because Torque seems to be a promising engine with some really neat features, which is of course why I bought it in the first place.

Now, I guess I'd better get programming and finish developing a game or two for XBLIG before I get locked out from XBLIG using 3.1.5 tools in a short time! :)

I hope this helps you a bit.

#38 re: post #28

Darrell,
I feel sad to say it, but I think that there is a good chance that your conclusion is unfortunately correct. However, maybe TX4.0 will surprise the Torque community - I just hope that if IA does develop TX4.0 that it is released sooner rather than later. Thanks for your comment.

#39 Hi guys. Sorry for my long radio silence. I was mulling over the news. I have done my best to condensate my arguments in 2 posts. Could you please read them at http://www.torquepowered.com/community/forums/viewthread/119575/2#comments and tell me what you think. Or, maybe, tell them what you think. I am sorry, but I'm a grown man and I've invested time and money in my company. My wife could give birth any day now. Making me hit the floor at full speed on my face is not something I'd expect from a company expecting a continued patronage from me.

Just so you know, I'm 100% behind this community, I'll share any and all code that I think will help others that I'll be allowed to. But in my opinion, the company and the community projects are two vastly different things and while one has gone above and beyond, the other has knee-caped me twice already.

#40 I love everyones dedication to this.. Trust me.. I really do.. But there is 1 underlying situation that folks either dismissed as non-important.. Or just didnt know.. Torque X is a compilation of many developers code over years of time.. Most of those developers do not work for the company anymore, neither did that bunch have any integrity to the company or the engine when they wrote it.. Thats why there is NO Documentation, many unexplained issues and even if IA does provide resources to "assist" in the migration.. How many paid hours to do you really think IA is going to devote to what they believe is a shinking ship.. From IA standpoint.. Its business.. Not personal..

Pino and others on this forum are extremely talented developers. But at what point do you sacrifice business stability and unnecessary sleepless nights on a engine that wasnt designed for upgrades and wasnt built as a modular add-on engine?

From what i gather 4.0 is not a port or upgrade.. It was built from ground up.. So if Microsoft chose not to port it. and IA looked at the dev. cycle and decided not to port or support it? Why attempt to take a crippled engine and mod it?

When you are attempting to port it.. Ask yourself this simple question over and over..

"If it dont make $$$$(dollars) it dont make sense(Cents)