Torque X Status Update (8-17-2010)

#41 @Neil

Assumption 1 - No supported in the sense that we do not have any active development occurring on it. We are trying to figure out our stance on 4.0. To be clear here I am not promising anything.

Assumption 2 - The new version of Torque X will not be backwards compatible. The first major release is focused on Windows Phone 7. After which we will evaluate other XNA platforms. So, 1.0 will not support Xbox but future versions may or may not support it.

Assumption 3 - When Microsoft moves to a new version of XNA on the Xbox they typically stop accepting games created with older versions of XNA. I am not a MS employee nor do I have inside information, I have no idea if/when they will stop accepting XNA 3.1.5 games.

Assumption 4 - Pricing for the new version has yet to be determined. If we do extend the current version of Torque X to XNA 4.0 it will most likely be available for free. To be clear here, I am not promising 4.0 support on the current TX but we are looking at it.

Your last question - Again, once 1.0 is finished we will evaluating Xbox along with all of our other potential initiatives.

#42 The fact that xna has so many silly restrictions for developers.. It has lacked documentation and real tutorials, and it lacks real marketing.. So ..it lacks alot of developers attention.. which causes torque and instant action to not want to give it alot of attention (dollars and resources) Im irritated like many at this : Torque X had the ability to change the XNA marketplace.. All was needed was a solid and performing engine and also microsoft's support.. What I imagine happened is this.. Torque like many others had high hopes for torque x and xna.. But then saw that the marketplace was not being marketed to users.. Then the saw the atom bomb of ALL ATOM BOMBS.. The iphone came.. And history was re-written in the game development industry.. So as a software company I imagine that so much attention was turned to the iphone, they had to make a move to a much more profitable platform..

So it left xna in the lurch.. Partly torque fault for a troubled engine.. But partly microsofts fault for the platform never really being seen by the masses.. I believe that torque would have really fixed the engine and made more releases had xna really gained iphone-like status..

Torque x needed so much love and money.. But I imagine the only way from a business point to justify that kind of love, money and resource is if the marketplace is profitable for developers.. Then they will make $$ and buy more genre kits, and paid support and torque x makes more money and then they deploy resources to bug fixes.. ect..


At the end of the day.. THe marketplace and consumers dictate the quality of software tools.. You want better tools? Ur gonna need a company to produce a lively and explosive marketplace that millions will use on a daily basis

#43 re: post#41

Hi Derek, thanks for your responses. I really do appreciate your timely response. Please hear me out:

Based on Microsoft's past courses of action in similar situations, it is my opinion that it is very likely that Microsoft "XNA Creators Club" will at some point in the near future no longer permit projects created with their version-3.1-based developer tools to be uploaded and published on XBLIG. By definition this will also "outlaw" all TorqueX 3.1.5 created projects from XBLIG. That decision, while unfortunate is not ultimately Instant Action's responsibility and certainly not IA's doing.

Nonetheless, regardless of what Microsoft does regarding the migration from XNA 3.1-based-tools to XNA 4.0-based-tools, if IA decides to not support Xbox 360 deployment for their future versions of their TorqueX product, then I feel that I have been unfairly misled through IA's advertising and marketing, and furthermore, I believe you should offer a full refund of my purchase (if Xbox 360 support is discontinued in any future release of Torque X, the only exception being if Microsoft itself drops support for XBox360 from XNA itself which is highly unlikely).

Would Instant Action be willing to offer me a full refund in such a case? Who can I talk to about this if you do not have the authority to make that decision on Instant Action's behalf?

You can't in all fairness take the product you have, "Torque X", and then change it in its next released version to omit its core functionality, which as far as I'm concerned is Xbox 360 support. Even if you still label it "Torque X", you are in reality redefining what the product actually is. While TX 3.1.5 does support Xbox 360 deployment, TX 1.0 will not support Xbox 360 deployment. Furthermore, you have made it clear that possibly Xbox 360 deployment may never again be supported by any future version of Torque X - not certainly will not, but nonetheless quite possibly will not. And I assume that even IF it will be supported sometime in the future, then it probably will not be supported or available for at least a year or so, in my optimistic opinion.

Please try to understand this from a purchaser's perspective. Would you take the next planned version of iTorque and announce that it will no longer be backward compatible with existing iTorque projects, and also, now all future iTorque projects created with this new version can only deploy to the Apple Macintosh platform and not to the iPod, iPhone and iPad? Of course not, or at least, I certainly would hope not. Could you imagine the outcry you would get from dissatisfied iTorque purchasers? That would be akin to Microsoft redefining its Office applications to become video editors in their next upgrade, stripping them of their original functionality, but still retaining their original names of Word, Excel and Access.

And it would be one thing to focus on adding additional support for the Windows phone and not adding enhanced support for the Xbox, but in fact something else has occurred, which is quite another thing. Namely: by breaking backward compatibility with the existing (3.1.5) version of TX, you are actually removing that functionality (360 support) in the next and upcoming version of TX. This is NOT an upgrade - it is both the REMOVAL of existing functionality (namely, Xbox 360 deployment) and it is the REDEFINING of a product which happens to retain the identical name of a previous product.
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#44 ...CONTINUED from post #43

Let me repeat that:
This is NOT an upgrade - it is both the REMOVAL of existing functionality (namely, Xbox 360 deployment) and it is the REDEFINING of a product which happens to retain the identical name of a previous product.

Here is a quote from the description of your product on your website, taken recently:

Quote:Torque X is designed from the ground up to harness the power of XNA. Written entirely in C#, the result is an extremely powerful and flexible 2D & 3D game engine. You can code in C#, then run your game in Windows or on your own retail XBox 360 using XNA Game Studio 3.1 and XNA Creator's Club. Torque X is loaded with systems that make debugging, journaling game events and testing features much easier than with XNA Game Studio 3.1 alone.

Torque X also features a robust set of editors that allow for quick and easy development of compelling game worlds.

Deploy to Xbox 360
Torque X is built on XNA for deployment on PC and the Xbox 360. Reach millions of Xbox 360 owners by creating your game with Torque X and posting it on the XNA Community Games Channel for anyone to play.

Based on the advertisement descriptions on this (IA's) website, I was unmistakably given the impression that Torque X was essentially "Torque for Xbox", whether or not it supports other additional target platforms via XNA. That is why I purchased a license to use it. I would not expect that IA would then a few weeks later after my purchase (or for that matter, at any time) cut support for what is in my opinion the very core and essence of the product they offered: a Torque engine which is available for Xbox 360 development.

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#45 ...CONTINUED from post #44

And now, to make it EVEN WORSE, Instant Action cannot even give a straight 'yes' or 'no' answer to whether or not they will support Xbox deployment in the future beyond version TX 1.0?

Do you really expect your customers to be okay with this? What is going on here? Even if the X in Torque X refers to XNA and not to Xbox, then nonetheless it should still support Xbox deployment because XNA itself does support it. I am not entirely ignorant of market demand and so forth; and even so, I don't understand the reasoning behind these decisions. I certainly do not understand the implementation of these decisions either.

Bottom line: This isn't fair to your customers. Do you think that these decisions are fair? Why are you (Instant Action) treating your loyal customers like this? Does Instant Action honestly expect to retain customers this way?

Unless Instant Action resolves this situation fairly for its paying customers, I for one will be very, very unlikely to ever purchase another Instant Action product again. Perhaps the X in Torque X will stand for eX-customers instead.

And I really hope also that you will change and revise the current descriptions for Torque X immediately to at the very least give fair warning to prospective customers that this product is being essentially discontinued and it will likely not be able to do what it currently can do for very long if Microsoft excludes 3.1-based-tools projects from XBLIG, which their track record indicates they very most likely will.

There is no way you should be marketing your product as you are now. How can you announce what is essentially discontinued support for a product (the 360 component which is arguably the main component or essence of the product) and yet simultaneously continue to offer it and sell it, promoting it as a game engine for the 360? I mean, come on. I or someone else should really talk to a lawyer about this and see if this isn't actually false or misleading advertising.

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#46 ...CONTINUED from #45

So, while I do appreciate your timely response, and also I understand that you yourself probably do not have the authority to make some of the company's decisions, I think this is a bad situation at best, and my and others' permanent abandonment of Instant Action and its products at worst.

I am holding onto a thin slice of hope that maybe Instant Action will take corrective action to redeem this situation, and in my opinion give its paying customers the level of service and support which they deserve and desire.

What bothers me the most is that this is entirely avoidable if IA would just create a new iteration of Torque X which INCLUDES support for the Xbox 360, but for some reason it is at best uncertain that they will.

So if the future of "Torque 360" is uncertain, then why should I continue to be a user of Torque at all? Why should I invest my own time and effort to better learn the Torque 360 system which is destined to become abandoned for at least the foreseeable future if not permanently?

Thanks Derek, & please let me know if a refund for my purchase can be arranged if 360 support will be discontinued. Also, regarding future 360 support in TX, I have to interpret your previous answer of "maybe" as "no". If I could be given a clear "yes" with a projected timeframe, then I would most likely continue to use Torque.

#47 Just a note to avoid confusion in the topic, Torque X and Torque 360 are completely separate products. Torque 360 is for officially licensed XBox developers who have a devkit. It is a C++ engine that compiles against the XDK. Torque X is built on XNA and the focus of this discussion.

#48 @Neil - Quite a lot to consume but I will do my best to address your concerns. The project we are working on is not an upgrade to the current Torque X but should really be viewed as a separate product, I apologize for the confusion with labeling it the new Torque X. I would like to make it easy financially for people to switch over should they want to.

As I mentioned before it is unclear to me if we will have an official XNA 4.0 solution for Torque X. We have a version running on one of the XNA 4.0 betas, but at the time XNA 4.0 did not include Xbox 360 support. In some form or another (Pino's CEV or an official update) we will get this work out.

We will be putting up a disclaimer this week for new buyers as its unclear what level of support there will be for XNA 4.0 and I want to make sure customers are informed before making a purchasing decision.

To answer your other question about a refund. If you are unhappy with your purchase and don't want to take the chance on a 4.0 port please email me and we'll take care of you. However, we won't be offering a refund for Torque X when the Windows Phone 7 product comes out and doesn't fully support Xbox. As I mentioned before, I am doing the best I can to see that XNA 4.0 support is available in some fashion (community or official) for the current Torque X product. The Windows Phone 7 product we are working on should be viewed as a different product and you should only upgrade if you want to take advantage of the new features.

I would eventually like the new product we are working on to become a full replacement for Torque X. I've been told that taking what will be the Windows Phone 7 product and making it work on the Xbox will be trivial, however it's feature set will be that of the phone. Adding additional advanced features will be looked at and evaluated based on their costs and opportunities.

To answer your second to last question about continuing to use Torque, each product or version we produce should be evaluated. We are doing our best to correct some of our marketing mistakes from the past, and only marketing features that we can guarantee are going to be available and working as intended. That being said I would expect you to only continue to use Torque as long as it met your needs better than other products.

To answer your question regarding future 360 support. As I mentioned to me it is currently unclear what level of support, if any, we will offer for 360 on the new product we are creating. After Windows Phone 7 is completed we will be looking at the cost and opportunity of support 360. As far as timelines go, I will only present a timeline when I have over a 90% confidence level that we can achieve it. I know that isn't the answer you were looking for but I've seen us promise the moon and fail to deliver too many times.

#49 re: post#47

Thanks David for clarifying that - in my post (#46) I did not mean to refer to Torque 360 per say, but rather I was referring to the conceptual idea of "Torque for Xbox 360" meaning actually Torque X, or the version of Torque which as you mentioned is built on XNA.

#50 re: post#48

Thank you Derek for your response. I appreciate your openness and transparency, and also for clarifying some points about how the new and old Torque X should be viewed as 2 separate products, and that each version or product IA produces should be evaluated [basically as a single-instance product without a future upgrade path].

First, I want to say thanks for putting that disclaimer on the Torque X description for prospective buyers. I think that is decent of IA and the right and fair thing to do.

Next, I want to say that I highly respect your willingness to provide an email and offer a refund for my recent $200 purchase. Whether or not I take that route, that willingness speaks volumes to me. I believe that demonstrates at least two positive things on Instant Action's part:

1. A significant level of integrity, and
2. A willingness and ability to provide a good level of customer / client service

Briefly, I also want to mention that I think Torque X is a good product, and furthermore the only product of its kind that I am aware of (a mature game engine / comprehensive RAD tool specifically for XNA). I do not mention this because of your willingness to offer a refund, but rather because I think it is the truth.

Regardless of what subsequent course of action I choose, I believe that Instant Action made the right decision and demonstrated a level of integrity toward its customer, and you have my thanks for that.

I have not quite yet decided whether to use this game engine in my projects because of surrounding circumstances (future 4.0 compliance issue and possible discontinuation). I will consider it carefully over the next few days, and I will let you know early next week what my decision is. Ideally I would like to use Torque X for my projects, but I need to evaluate such use in the context of these other recent factors that surround and affect everything.

Again, thank you Derek, I appreciate very much your and Instant Action's willingness to resolve this situation.

#51 UPDATE (cross post): I've just received access to IA SVN repository containing their internal port to GS 4.0 (the one Tom mentioned). I've been also authorized to share the source so the CEV porting workgroup now has a very good reference to help during the process. Stay tuned... Torque X 4 CEV will be with you soon ;)
Thanks Derek, Eric, Tom & C. ;)

#52 Derek, it sounds now like you're changing your stance somewhat from that originally. Originally you seemed to suggest that the new engine was a rewrite of TorqueX- effectively the same product line, and as such existing TorqueX licensees may well be allowed the new engine free, or at worst for a small fee.

Now it sounds like you're trying to renege on those earlier comments somewhat, and are trying to suggest that this new engine is in fact a completely separate product, and so will most likely have to be paid for and licensed as such. Further, it seems you are trying to cement this position by considering a patch to enable XNA4.0 support but not resolving the fundamental flaws with the tools, or provide the promised features.

I've been reasonable and I'm not sure you've listened. Let me restate my earlier point a little more bluntly:

TorqueX 3D as a product has never been fit for purpose, and has never worked properly, or contained promised features. The editor outright failed to work on a number of combinations of hardware and software platforms for me, and whilst I understand some have been able to scrape together titles based on a lot of hardwork themselves above and beyond that which should be expected for the advertised product, it's pretty clear TorqueX 3D has never been of an acceptable standard. As IA has now stated it currently no longer plans to get this product to a suitable standard, I expect one of the two following remediations:

1) A complete refund for the price paid for TorqueX 3D licenses
2) Free full access to the replacement product, including free updates until it is at least capable of supporting the features TorqueX promised- i.e. XBLIG support
3) Continued development of TX3D to get it to an acceptable standard including promised features

I understand point 3 is now not in GG's plans, but it is a potential solution and hence worth stating either way. Should GG refuse all of these options, or not provide an alternative acceptable option, then I most certainly will be looking at my legal options. I know at minimum I can seek a refund and a chargeback to Garagegames from my card issuer even for a product purchased from an overseas site thanks to the UK's consumer protection laws, however I will explore further options for compensation as well if pushed.

I absolutely do not want to have to go down this path, but I have paid for GG products previously that simply never ended up fulfiling the promised feature set. That is, I have given you money previously and received something that never ended up fulfiling the originally promised features. Again, I do not want to have to go down the route of seeking renumeration from the courts or my bank, but I have given you free money for the last time. You are not getting out of it this time- please look at my purhcase history with you to see how loyal a customer I have been and think hard about how badly you are treating your customers. Time and time again you fail to provide what you promise- time and time again you tell us it's different this time, if you cannot fulfil your promises which you clearly can't, or if you even do not wish to support indies, then stop saying you will, and stop promising what you cannot deliver in the first place. Even if you do offer us free access to the new engine is there ever any way we can be sure it's not just something else you'll get bored of and fail to complete as is the case with a good proportion of your products? With this in mind a full refund is certainly the preferred option right now.

On this note, I should point out that I was a Visual3D licensee, and when they decided to renege on their promise to provide XBLIG support previously also and I queried it, they were more than happy to give me the option of a refund which they promptly processed. IA could learn an awful lot from their customer service.

#53 re: post#48

Hi Derek,

I just wanted to let you know that after giving it a lot of thought and consideration, I have decided to discontinue my use of Torque X and I do indeed want to receive a full refund:

Quote:To answer your other question about a refund. If you are unhappy with your purchase and don't want to take the chance on a 4.0 port please email me and we'll take care of you. However, we won't be offering a refund for Torque X when the Windows Phone 7 product comes out and doesn't fully support Xbox.

There are several reasons for my decision, which I'll briefly summarize here:

1. TorqueX will not have Xbox 360 support for XNA 4.0 for the foreseeable future, and quite possibly it never will, as you have indicated elsewhere in this thread. XNA 4.0 will however fully support Xbox 360 development.

From the Microsoft XNA website,
http://creators.xna.com/en-US/news/xnags40release

Quote:Game Studio 4.0 Released!
submitted9/16/2010
We are proud to announce that XNA Game Studio 4.0 is now available for you to download and start using right away to create games for Windows, Xbox 360, and Windows Phone 7.

For existing XNA Game Studio users, you’ll notice a change: XNA Game Studio 4.0 is part of the Windows Phone Developer Tools. These tools provide an amazing array of features all built on Visual Studio 2010; for those that don’t have a version of Visual Studio 2010 installed, the Windows Phone Developer Tools will automatically install the Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone version for you. (Don’t worry – it works great for Windows and Xbox 360 development, too!)

2. My short time using TorqueX has revealed several technical bugs and serious shortcomings, rendering the product unpractical to use. I will spare you the details, but suffice it to say that they exist.

3. I cannot assume that the modified CEV version, which the paying customers of TorqueX, not the authors or publisher of TorqueX (Instant Action) revised, will be guaranteed to compensate for the various bugs and defects in the original product, as well as additionally XNA 4.0 lack of support or compatibility. Furthermore, even if it was guaranteed to do so, then nonetheless that is not the product I purchased (the CEV version). I purchased the IA version, and I am not obligated to use a user-modified version which may or may not work properly. I did not pay IA so that I could use the users' code and modifications for this product.

Thank you Derek, please let me know as soon as possible who I need to contact. I will also send you an email.

Thanks,
Neil

#54 You can contact Derek or I, Neil; my contact e-mail is in my profile.

#55 Thanks David,
I will send you an email instead.
Neil

#56 Wow this is really disappointing. I've been waiting since I bought it for this product to become fit for purpose and was hoping this new dev team would bring about the changes promised last year. I didn't even know when I bought it that it was not developed in house by GG and wasn't even considered to be a real product.

So how far back are we talking about refunds here?