Questions about converting to T3D
by Andy Rollins · in Torque 3D Professional · 06/23/2010 (5:10 am) · 32 replies
Had a license for T3D for a while but only just starting to play with it and we're looking to upgrade our game (Z-Day) from TGEA to T3D. There's a few queries I've got and thought I'd ask here and hope for some quick answers than hunt around for everything.
Advanced Lighting looks stunning but unfortunately given the size and complexity (it's a city) of our map I'm doubtful it'll perform.
1. Switching between AL and BL is done in the World Editor - any reason this can't be added to users options so people with high-end cards can use AL and others use BL? (side note: T3D crashes every time I switch between AL and BL in some maps - works ok in the blank mission, anyone know if this is a known bug?)
2. Shadows in BL are odd, the sun casts shadow on a building (it's a DIF) but not on the terrain itself - is there something I need to do to get shadows on terrain in BL?
3. Tried converting DIFs to Collada using the world Editor but:
- Using "Export Interiors to Collada" pops up the Gui, lets me select which Interiors but then doesn't seem to do anything
- Using "Export to Collada" saves the object but with no materials, LODs or the inside of the building
Am I missing something here?
4. Any idea how to enable SSAO? tried to use SSAOpostfx.enable(); but it didn't seem to do anything.
5. pureLIGHT - is it really as good as it seems? also I couldn't find any info on the process i.e. does it integrate with T3D to import your mission directly? load it from file or do you manually have to reconstruct the level manually in pureLIGHT?
6. Seem to remember someone saying (think it may have been Steve Acaster as I follow his blogs) that BL with Purelight is similar to AL but you don't get normal maps -- does that mean normal maps don't work in BL? (don't worry if this doesn't make sense I'll go hunt for the blog/post and see what it actually said).
7. I'm getting a lot of errors saying when porting the mission from TGEA with "Zone Overflow! Object will NOT render correctly. Copying out as many as possible" --- any ideas what this means? or what the problem is?
8. Flashlights - I saw the screenshot someone posted about them working, if I remember it was as easy as adding a spotlight to the weapon image, does this work in BL? or do you need the dynamic lighting in AL?
9. Web PLugin - How does this work, is all the content downloaded to the clients pc for their machine to process like a normal install or does the webserver handle all the processing (rendering, physics,etc) and just stream the video to the clients browser?
Edit: Thought of a number 10
10. Mesh Road Editor is great but doesn't seem to like Junctions either T-junctions or crossroads - any tricks for creating these or is it just a case of modelling junctions seperately and linking them up with the mesh road for the rest?
Thanks to anyone that takes the time to answer any of these.
Advanced Lighting looks stunning but unfortunately given the size and complexity (it's a city) of our map I'm doubtful it'll perform.
1. Switching between AL and BL is done in the World Editor - any reason this can't be added to users options so people with high-end cards can use AL and others use BL? (side note: T3D crashes every time I switch between AL and BL in some maps - works ok in the blank mission, anyone know if this is a known bug?)
2. Shadows in BL are odd, the sun casts shadow on a building (it's a DIF) but not on the terrain itself - is there something I need to do to get shadows on terrain in BL?
3. Tried converting DIFs to Collada using the world Editor but:
- Using "Export Interiors to Collada" pops up the Gui, lets me select which Interiors but then doesn't seem to do anything
- Using "Export to Collada" saves the object but with no materials, LODs or the inside of the building
Am I missing something here?
4. Any idea how to enable SSAO? tried to use SSAOpostfx.enable(); but it didn't seem to do anything.
5. pureLIGHT - is it really as good as it seems? also I couldn't find any info on the process i.e. does it integrate with T3D to import your mission directly? load it from file or do you manually have to reconstruct the level manually in pureLIGHT?
6. Seem to remember someone saying (think it may have been Steve Acaster as I follow his blogs) that BL with Purelight is similar to AL but you don't get normal maps -- does that mean normal maps don't work in BL? (don't worry if this doesn't make sense I'll go hunt for the blog/post and see what it actually said).
7. I'm getting a lot of errors saying when porting the mission from TGEA with "Zone Overflow! Object will NOT render correctly. Copying out as many as possible" --- any ideas what this means? or what the problem is?
8. Flashlights - I saw the screenshot someone posted about them working, if I remember it was as easy as adding a spotlight to the weapon image, does this work in BL? or do you need the dynamic lighting in AL?
9. Web PLugin - How does this work, is all the content downloaded to the clients pc for their machine to process like a normal install or does the webserver handle all the processing (rendering, physics,etc) and just stream the video to the clients browser?
Edit: Thought of a number 10
10. Mesh Road Editor is great but doesn't seem to like Junctions either T-junctions or crossroads - any tricks for creating these or is it just a case of modelling junctions seperately and linking them up with the mesh road for the rest?
Thanks to anyone that takes the time to answer any of these.
#2
1. In 1.1b you can easily switch between AL and BL for the options dialog. Check lighting quality.
2. What Steve said.
3. Iduno.
4. All the postfx got ripped out of the options menu after 1.0.1, but you can easily add them with these variables:
5. Money, i don't haz it [/small]meaning that if i had, i would've bought PL[/small].
6. If you in 1.1b set lighting quality to lowest (BL) and shader to high, you'll see that you have normal maps. But like SSAO, you have options:
7. =/
8. Yes, flashlight will work in BL, but they're not that easy to deal with in multiplayer if you followed this thread.
9. Its more like playing the game in your browser from your harddrive.
10. I tried to use the road tool for city roads, that wasn't such a good idea. Plus, I'm not sure if they've fixed the buggish collision yet.
06/23/2010 (8:38 am)
Steve has answered the most of them, but anyways:1. In 1.1b you can easily switch between AL and BL for the options dialog. Check lighting quality.
2. What Steve said.
3. Iduno.
4. All the postfx got ripped out of the options menu after 1.0.1, but you can easily add them with these variables:
$pref::PostEffect::EdgeAA = true; $pref::PostEffect::HDR = true; $pref::PostEffect::LightRay = true; $pref::PostEffect::SSAO = true;
5. Money, i don't haz it [/small]meaning that if i had, i would've bought PL[/small].
6. If you in 1.1b set lighting quality to lowest (BL) and shader to high, you'll see that you have normal maps. But like SSAO, you have options:
$pref::Video::disableCubemapping = 0; $pref::Video::disableNormalMapping = "0"; $pref::Video::disableParallaxMapping = "0"; $pref::Video::disablePixSpecular = "0"; $pref::Video::disableVerticalSync = "1";
7. =/
8. Yes, flashlight will work in BL, but they're not that easy to deal with in multiplayer if you followed this thread.
9. Its more like playing the game in your browser from your harddrive.
Quote:Hopefully it's gonna get a bit of love and attention in the future...
10. I tried to use the road tool for city roads, that wasn't such a good idea. Plus, I'm not sure if they've fixed the buggish collision yet.
#3
Thanks to Marcus too - good to hear torchlights work in BL too, can easily workaround the issue for multiplayer by using seperate datablock for on/off and swapping between the two.
Ok still a lil confused regarding pureLIGHT - what if you don't want to build everything in blender or another package? Do I take that to mean you can't take an existing mission and import that into pureLIGHT?
Would seem like a lot of work to re-construct the whole mission in pureLIGHT... how about the terrain too is there anyway to get that across?
06/23/2010 (9:04 am)
Thanks Steve.. could have bet money on you responding and glad to know you're still English, how tense was that though!!Thanks to Marcus too - good to hear torchlights work in BL too, can easily workaround the issue for multiplayer by using seperate datablock for on/off and swapping between the two.
Ok still a lil confused regarding pureLIGHT - what if you don't want to build everything in blender or another package? Do I take that to mean you can't take an existing mission and import that into pureLIGHT?
Would seem like a lot of work to re-construct the whole mission in pureLIGHT... how about the terrain too is there anyway to get that across?
#4
*sigh*
England finish behind the States in the group ... we'll be getting a tough draw against German me thinks ...
PL:
Terrain has it's own "dodgy" lightmap generation, so you can't import that into PL.
I don't think that you can import an entire .mis into PL, because PL needs Collada (or ase). But if/when T3D collada export gets bug fixed, it might/should have the transform for each object, so it'll appear in PL in the correct place.
06/23/2010 (9:18 am)
English??? I'm converting to be an American! USA USA USA!*sigh*
England finish behind the States in the group ... we'll be getting a tough draw against German me thinks ...
PL:
Terrain has it's own "dodgy" lightmap generation, so you can't import that into PL.
I don't think that you can import an entire .mis into PL, because PL needs Collada (or ase). But if/when T3D collada export gets bug fixed, it might/should have the transform for each object, so it'll appear in PL in the correct place.
#5
06/23/2010 (12:22 pm)
Originally an EDIT to my previous comment: btw. i remember this project, and it looks quiet awesome. You haven't posted a blog since september last year O_o. Glad to see that the project isn't dead :D. Any new blog comming up?
#6
So currently reviewing whether to move to Torque 3D, UDK or Unity -- there's pros and cons of all 3 engines besides the obvious expense of moving 5 or 6 of us to a new engine.
No new blog right now but soon hopefully once we've made some progress on porting and deciding where to go.
06/23/2010 (12:51 pm)
Unfortunately personal life got in the way of working on games so everything has been on hold so far this year - we're now caught in that we've had some interest in helping develop but you can't buy TGEA licenses anymore!So currently reviewing whether to move to Torque 3D, UDK or Unity -- there's pros and cons of all 3 engines besides the obvious expense of moving 5 or 6 of us to a new engine.
No new blog right now but soon hopefully once we've made some progress on porting and deciding where to go.
#7
3.b) Chris has fixed this for Beta 2.
5.) It truly is awesome. Also, it does a lot more than advertised, ie.: can bake to vertex colors, can bake texture and lightmap into one, can use your normal, specular, height offset, etc... textures and use them when lighting your scene. You don't actually need a 3rd party tool for it, but the pipeline can become rather tricky. We made our own collada submesh disassembler and reassembler tools to automatically separate submeshes by their materials.
06/23/2010 (5:42 pm)
3.a) To export DIFs, try specifying a file name with a .dae extension. Without it it just won't do anything, and it won't tell you a word.3.b) Chris has fixed this for Beta 2.
5.) It truly is awesome. Also, it does a lot more than advertised, ie.: can bake to vertex colors, can bake texture and lightmap into one, can use your normal, specular, height offset, etc... textures and use them when lighting your scene. You don't actually need a 3rd party tool for it, but the pipeline can become rather tricky. We made our own collada submesh disassembler and reassembler tools to automatically separate submeshes by their materials.
#8
As for 3.a) it doesn't get as far as you specifying a filename... just get a GUI to pick which interiors to export, click them and then nothing.
for 3.b) that's great to hear now damn you lot hurry up with Beta 2.. :)
5. pureLIGHT does seem awesome it's just with a couple of thousand items, buildings, roads, streetlights, etc... I'm concerned about how much work it'd take to rebuild all that in PL, may have to see if there's a clever way around it.
I've written something to take the whole scene geometry out of Torque to import into the Recast navMesh library and was hoping for a similar approach for PL --- reading their manual seems like I've really misunderstood just what this can do.
Will take a peak at their demo and see what I can do with it and learn.
06/24/2010 (8:53 am)
Thanks KonradAs for 3.a) it doesn't get as far as you specifying a filename... just get a GUI to pick which interiors to export, click them and then nothing.
for 3.b) that's great to hear now damn you lot hurry up with Beta 2.. :)
5. pureLIGHT does seem awesome it's just with a couple of thousand items, buildings, roads, streetlights, etc... I'm concerned about how much work it'd take to rebuild all that in PL, may have to see if there's a clever way around it.
I've written something to take the whole scene geometry out of Torque to import into the Recast navMesh library and was hoping for a similar approach for PL --- reading their manual seems like I've really misunderstood just what this can do.
Will take a peak at their demo and see what I can do with it and learn.
#9
Definitely give the demo a try and see how that works out for you.
As for 3.a) - can you please try that in 1.0.1? I think that feature worked there and might have been broken since 1.1 alpha.
3.b) :) I'm not actually writing code for T3D, just following stuff.
06/24/2010 (9:02 am)
Andy, I can help you with #5 - if you send me the mesh, I can have our disassembler work it. Same thing for reassembling your scene. I can't push the tool out just yet, but if this is any help to you - I'll be happy to do that.Definitely give the demo a try and see how that works out for you.
As for 3.a) - can you please try that in 1.0.1? I think that feature worked there and might have been broken since 1.1 alpha.
3.b) :) I'm not actually writing code for T3D, just following stuff.
#10
As for 3.a) I tried it over the weekend and yes it works fine in 1.0.1 and exports the model perfectly so this must be a bug introduced in 1.1
06/28/2010 (3:28 am)
Thanks for the offer Konrad, may be in touch when we reach a point where I want to look deeper into pureLIGHT.As for 3.a) I tried it over the weekend and yes it works fine in 1.0.1 and exports the model perfectly so this must be a bug introduced in 1.1
#11
Is it something you have working in BL??
06/29/2010 (5:41 am)
@Marcus - torchlights don't appear to work in Basic Lighting, they're fine in advanced Lighting, but nothing appears in BL.Is it something you have working in BL??
#12
Possibly because of spotlights not working in BL?
06/29/2010 (6:40 am)
Quote:
torchlights don't appear to work in Basic Lighting
Possibly because of spotlights not working in BL?
#13
Spotlights work in BL for a lampost for example, although they're static so not really sure what's possible in BL and AL - let me go read the documenation on them ..... ooops there is none!
Just on the SSAO... still need to test if it works in BL but in default prefs file (core/scripts/client/defaults.cs) it states:
So not looking hopeful for using them in BL.
06/29/2010 (7:34 am)
I'd presumed they wouldn't work in BL but Marcus in his response seemed to think overwise.Spotlights work in BL for a lampost for example, although they're static so not really sure what's possible in BL and AL - let me go read the documenation on them ..... ooops there is none!
Just on the SSAO... still need to test if it works in BL but in default prefs file (core/scripts/client/defaults.cs) it states:
/// Enables the SSAO post effect. This uses alot of /// fillrate and isn't recommended for lower end GPUs. /// /// This only works in AL. /// $pref::PostEffect::SSAO = false; /// Turns on the edge antialiasing filter for a fake FSAA /// effect which performs well with Advanced Lighting. /// /// This only works in AL. /// $pref::PostEffect::EdgeAA = false;
So not looking hopeful for using them in BL.
#14
06/29/2010 (8:04 am)
Only works in AL ... they're SM3 shaders aren't they? Obviously no type of fallback available.
#15
*cheking*
Not sure if my eyes are trying to tick me but:
it seems to be working for me, but as i said before "there might be something else to it".
06/29/2010 (8:39 am)
Sorry for late responce that is, didn't pay attention to this thread. Ummm, well, i believe they work in BL since I'm using BL and flashlights/spotlights, but there might be something else to it.*cheking*
Not sure if my eyes are trying to tick me but:
it seems to be working for me, but as i said before "there might be something else to it".
#16
That's good news then (although they look horrid in BL compared to AL)
06/29/2010 (9:24 am)
Figured it out, the torchlight doesn't work with BL in T3D 1.0.1 but it does in T3D 1.1 Beta 1 --- been swapping between the two versions as the collada export is broken in 1.1!That's good news then (although they look horrid in BL compared to AL)
#17
Am I correct that you have to build a complete level in whatever 3D program you like and than export it as Collada. I mean complete level including the interiors. lights and possibly collision? If so, that would be a lot of polygons in it, and will this be exported?
And if I do that, what's the gain? Do I get higher framerates or so?
A lot of questions, but it is also a lot of $$$$.
Also regarding point 4:
I have found a nice resource to change postFX in game/editor. Haven't tried it myself yet, but I have great expectations. You can find it here:
http://www.torquepowered.com/community/resources/view/18479
@Steve:
Maybe you have to change to Brasilian if you want to be world champion. But I hope we will be able to surprise them on Friday.
06/30/2010 (12:38 am)
Getting back at point 5 PureLight.Am I correct that you have to build a complete level in whatever 3D program you like and than export it as Collada. I mean complete level including the interiors. lights and possibly collision? If so, that would be a lot of polygons in it, and will this be exported?
And if I do that, what's the gain? Do I get higher framerates or so?
A lot of questions, but it is also a lot of $$$$.
Also regarding point 4:
I have found a nice resource to change postFX in game/editor. Haven't tried it myself yet, but I have great expectations. You can find it here:
http://www.torquepowered.com/community/resources/view/18479
@Steve:
Maybe you have to change to Brasilian if you want to be world champion. But I hope we will be able to surprise them on Friday.
#18
You don't have to export the "whole" level in one go, you'd export sections of it at a time, each as an individual Collada model. eg: think of it as arranging all your models in the 3D app, and then export them one-by-one, just so they all get their position marked in the Collada file.
As each section/model retains it's xyz, so Purelight puts them all in the correct place together in PL, and then exports them with a .mis file with them all in the correct place into Torque.
I'm "expecting" that the Torque "export as Collada" also retains the xyz, though I haven't tested it, and as Andy points out, it's busticated in 1.1 currently.
Higher frame rates come from careful planning -> my ramble on drawcalls
Cracks open an Amstel :D
06/30/2010 (6:57 am)
@RichardYou don't have to export the "whole" level in one go, you'd export sections of it at a time, each as an individual Collada model. eg: think of it as arranging all your models in the 3D app, and then export them one-by-one, just so they all get their position marked in the Collada file.
As each section/model retains it's xyz, so Purelight puts them all in the correct place together in PL, and then exports them with a .mis file with them all in the correct place into Torque.
I'm "expecting" that the Torque "export as Collada" also retains the xyz, though I haven't tested it, and as Andy points out, it's busticated in 1.1 currently.
Higher frame rates come from careful planning -> my ramble on drawcalls
Cracks open an Amstel :D
#19
Haha! So how long is the boycott gonna take? 4 years I take it? :)
06/30/2010 (7:05 am)
Quote:Cracks open an Amstel :D
Haha! So how long is the boycott gonna take? 4 years I take it? :)
#20
No Konrad - we've got the Euro Qualifiers starting next year, so chance to lose to Wales there! Just maybe a 6 month boycott
06/30/2010 (7:26 am)
lol Steve... that's the kiss of death!No Konrad - we've got the Euro Qualifiers starting next year, so chance to lose to Wales there! Just maybe a 6 month boycott
Associate Steve Acaster
[YorkshireRifles.com]
2. BL terrain shadowmap has a stock value of 256 - which is fairly useless, has been reported.
3. I've not messed with any of that yet, but vaguely remember a bug report about it.
4. I think this is currently off as standard but could be hooked up to the new options GUI --- for the time being try enabling it in prefs directly.
5. You load your meshes into PL and they are arranged at the coordinates that they were exported as ... eg: I make a map entirely in Blender, cut it into smaller bits for export, import into PL, it's all in the same place -> export out of PL with lightmaps, it builds a mission file with everything in the right place for you.
Now ... technically ... if you export as Collada (when it's bug fixed) it should/might/hopefully/etc include the transforms of the objects - so you stick them in PL, PL it, then export it back to T3D and it should/hopefully/allegedly be the same transform. Disclaimer: this might be bullshot!
6. I think that's the stock settings - but as I say 1.1 has a fancy options GUI and easy access to changing the settings. To be honest I get better performance in AL without shadows than in BL (I think because of the stencil shadows in BL is big overhead - eventually I'm ripping that code out). I've not tried altering the BL settings to include normal mapping ... plus I vaguely remember a BL fix for them posted by Manoel(?) ... somewhere ...
7. No idea. :(
8. Not tried it.
9. Hopefully it's gonna get a bit of love and attention in the future...
10. I expect model them seperately ...
11. If England don't qualify I'm changing my nationality to Slovenian :P