Reasons Why Torque 3D is better than Unreal UDK (FOR ME)
by John E. Nelson · in General Discussion · 12/18/2009 (12:43 am) · 36 replies
There are some important reasons Why Torque 3D is better than Unreal.
Here is one of them!
Now Epic has released the Unreal engine in a "free" development kit (UDK), but is it really free?
No, not if you plan on selling your game ever! Any in business to develop and sell a game should be wary of the lure of the UDK.
Here is a few lines from the licensing. Basically you pay $99, and if you make under 5,000 you don't pay anything else but if you make over $5,000 then thats when you pay 25% royalty. Ouch!
If you are creating a game or commercial application using UDK for sale or distribution to an end-user or client, or if you are providing services in connection with a game or application, the per-seat option does not apply. Instead the license terms for this arrangement are US $99 (Ninety Nine US Dollars) up-front, and a 0% royalty on you or your company's first $5,000 (US) in UDK related revenue, and a 25% royalty on UDK related revenue above $5,000 (US). UDK related revenue includes, but is not limited to, monies earned from: sales, services, training, advertisements, sponsorships, endorsements, memberships, subscription fees, rentals and pay-to-play.
Here is one of them!
Now Epic has released the Unreal engine in a "free" development kit (UDK), but is it really free?
No, not if you plan on selling your game ever! Any in business to develop and sell a game should be wary of the lure of the UDK.
Here is a few lines from the licensing. Basically you pay $99, and if you make under 5,000 you don't pay anything else but if you make over $5,000 then thats when you pay 25% royalty. Ouch!
If you are creating a game or commercial application using UDK for sale or distribution to an end-user or client, or if you are providing services in connection with a game or application, the per-seat option does not apply. Instead the license terms for this arrangement are US $99 (Ninety Nine US Dollars) up-front, and a 0% royalty on you or your company's first $5,000 (US) in UDK related revenue, and a 25% royalty on UDK related revenue above $5,000 (US). UDK related revenue includes, but is not limited to, monies earned from: sales, services, training, advertisements, sponsorships, endorsements, memberships, subscription fees, rentals and pay-to-play.
About the author
An experienced producer of interactive media and games going back to the 90's.
#2
Video training is one area UDK has the advantage but I look forward to the GG community catching on for us Indies.
12/18/2009 (2:27 am)
All I can say is try saving in UDK and writing to a database like MYSQL. Sorry but major limitations in UDK unless using middleware or until you move into UE3 source. Video training is one area UDK has the advantage but I look forward to the GG community catching on for us Indies.
#3
We purchased T3D and are currently evaluating if it suits all our project needs. I'm very happy with it but also would like to see some more development in certain areas (graph-based material editor, built-in physics editor, usable HDRI...).
I also tried UDK but since source code access is a must it mainly was to take a look at a hi-tech approach than real evaluation. I was blown away mainly, but also quickly spotted some weaknesses.
But to be honest, if T3D is better than UDK it certainly isn't because of the documentation. Why?
T3D's docs are nice, but ~50% is about pretty straightforward and simple topics. I learned faster by using the editors than by checking the user guides. Also they are incomplete for more advanced features: I had to spend some hours on the forums/youtube just to find out how to set up a working parallax bump map and how to do proper selective envmapping. The material editor doc just covered the most simple UI options.
A lot of features are undocumented, and precisely those which are not so trivial and need it the most.
What about more advanced and not so trivial topics? What about making a simple game? what about networking? What about creating custom object types/materials?
The docs are too focused on the tools while the most important thing should be topics about the game creation process itself, IMHO.
I'm pretty sure everybody would know how to create a sun from scratch without needing 10 pages of detailed explanation, but not everybody knows how to synch a multiplayer gamestate or to add some gameplay mechanics.
UDK has almost everything. Full documentation (both technical and artist-oriented), a very very impressive amount of video tutorials and more importantly, a complete game creation document. This is what people really needs, again IMHO.
I know new docs are on their way to be uploaded, and video tutorials are on the making, but until then I'll still think that T3D's help has been hyped a bit too much.
Hopefully this is taken as constructive criticism. I'm a happy T3D user :)
12/18/2009 (3:53 am)
@Michael: Better docs? I'd certainly like some details on that.We purchased T3D and are currently evaluating if it suits all our project needs. I'm very happy with it but also would like to see some more development in certain areas (graph-based material editor, built-in physics editor, usable HDRI...).
I also tried UDK but since source code access is a must it mainly was to take a look at a hi-tech approach than real evaluation. I was blown away mainly, but also quickly spotted some weaknesses.
But to be honest, if T3D is better than UDK it certainly isn't because of the documentation. Why?
T3D's docs are nice, but ~50% is about pretty straightforward and simple topics. I learned faster by using the editors than by checking the user guides. Also they are incomplete for more advanced features: I had to spend some hours on the forums/youtube just to find out how to set up a working parallax bump map and how to do proper selective envmapping. The material editor doc just covered the most simple UI options.
A lot of features are undocumented, and precisely those which are not so trivial and need it the most.
What about more advanced and not so trivial topics? What about making a simple game? what about networking? What about creating custom object types/materials?
The docs are too focused on the tools while the most important thing should be topics about the game creation process itself, IMHO.
I'm pretty sure everybody would know how to create a sun from scratch without needing 10 pages of detailed explanation, but not everybody knows how to synch a multiplayer gamestate or to add some gameplay mechanics.
UDK has almost everything. Full documentation (both technical and artist-oriented), a very very impressive amount of video tutorials and more importantly, a complete game creation document. This is what people really needs, again IMHO.
I know new docs are on their way to be uploaded, and video tutorials are on the making, but until then I'll still think that T3D's help has been hyped a bit too much.
Hopefully this is taken as constructive criticism. I'm a happy T3D user :)
#4
As far as i can tell from the release statements around the UDK its released so that students and hobby gamemakers, can get a taste of the current technology standard. It was never intended as an actual "indie" game-engine release (or license or whatever you want to call it), which is also evitable in the license agreement (who in their right indie mind would sign away 25% as soon as they made the first $5000? if ever they make it?)
In the students case its so that the student can get to work with something, there's a chance he/she'll be employed with after graduating...
The hobby approach just enables you to make standalone games kind-of-like mods... again for showboating skills or just making fun games (which is what it's all really about right?)
i agree that if you want to "make it", indie wise that T3D is the way to go (also Unity has made a very nice free indie release lately) - but for people just now getting into game development not having even the $100 for the binary T3D release, or wanting to show off skills in a familiar (to investors/companies) eviroment - UDK is the way to go...
12/18/2009 (6:26 am)
I gotta step in for UDKAs far as i can tell from the release statements around the UDK its released so that students and hobby gamemakers, can get a taste of the current technology standard. It was never intended as an actual "indie" game-engine release (or license or whatever you want to call it), which is also evitable in the license agreement (who in their right indie mind would sign away 25% as soon as they made the first $5000? if ever they make it?)
In the students case its so that the student can get to work with something, there's a chance he/she'll be employed with after graduating...
The hobby approach just enables you to make standalone games kind-of-like mods... again for showboating skills or just making fun games (which is what it's all really about right?)
i agree that if you want to "make it", indie wise that T3D is the way to go (also Unity has made a very nice free indie release lately) - but for people just now getting into game development not having even the $100 for the binary T3D release, or wanting to show off skills in a familiar (to investors/companies) eviroment - UDK is the way to go...
#5
If your goal is to learn and get a "job" at EA or some other studio... at the moment you should be learning Unreal.
If your goal is to be independent, run your own studio, and make your own game you should consider Torque 3D.
12/18/2009 (8:33 am)
Sebastian is correct... it does depend on your goals.If your goal is to learn and get a "job" at EA or some other studio... at the moment you should be learning Unreal.
If your goal is to be independent, run your own studio, and make your own game you should consider Torque 3D.
#6
No Source = modding ("Total Conversion" if you start from scratch)
Got Sauce = indy development
Does a job with the "Big Boys" count as a "real" job?
As in "real" non-game industry job?
What other industry would expect all those extra hours unpaid?
And then close you down because they "don't know what to do with you" (Ensemble) or "set you up to fail" (Pandemic Oz)?
All software has limitations which have to be taken into account, I was always annoyed when modding that I couldn't make anything with real "scale", I really pushed the CoD engine to it's limits in gameworld size and had to keep trimming stuff back to get a compile.
In Torque, if I want a 2 mile long corridor-crawl level with multiple routes through, I can make one and still get it lightmapped okay. That's the sort of gameworld scale I'm looking for. And it'll run fine on a fairly low-end GPU thanks to Basic Lighting. (My old 7series ran it okay in AL).
12/18/2009 (1:29 pm)
Personally I was thinking: "Oh look, it's this thread again"No Source = modding ("Total Conversion" if you start from scratch)
Got Sauce = indy development
Does a job with the "Big Boys" count as a "real" job?
As in "real" non-game industry job?
What other industry would expect all those extra hours unpaid?
And then close you down because they "don't know what to do with you" (Ensemble) or "set you up to fail" (Pandemic Oz)?
All software has limitations which have to be taken into account, I was always annoyed when modding that I couldn't make anything with real "scale", I really pushed the CoD engine to it's limits in gameworld size and had to keep trimming stuff back to get a compile.
In Torque, if I want a 2 mile long corridor-crawl level with multiple routes through, I can make one and still get it lightmapped okay. That's the sort of gameworld scale I'm looking for. And it'll run fine on a fairly low-end GPU thanks to Basic Lighting. (My old 7series ran it okay in AL).
#7
12/18/2009 (1:57 pm)
not one engine is the best option for all games. point. end of discussion, again, again and again... 
#8
I modified my first post about the docs, since it was bias (I'm the writer after all =p )
12/18/2009 (2:20 pm)
Alright, let's flip this then. How about we change the topic to "Why Torque is better than UDK FOR ME". This way it is purely perspective, person and project specific. That sounds more fair and makes this this less flame worthy. Deal?I modified my first post about the docs, since it was bias (I'm the writer after all =p )
#9
Pretty Pretty Pretty.
But... I try to start WORKING with it. I know, I'll try working with a texture! I'll try to repaint something from the Manta model.
Looks simple enough... I just need to follow that line to find where the diffuse is and.... OH GOD
This is what a high level engine is. It probably took them over 50 people just to put that level together, and it really shows. If you already have industry experience or you're some shader savant, maybe you'll have a clue what exactly is going on here.
For the rest of us mortals, I'm glad torque has straightforward editors. It actually took me 10-15 minutes to find the material editor. Their tutorial said "DOUBLE CLICK ON THIS THING THAT'S BURIED 6 MENUS DEEP"
UDK looks sweet, but I can't imagine myself accomplishing anything substantial with my limited expertise. See, each facet of UDK begs for a professional person with many years experience. It's unstuitable for a small team or an individual.
Whereas I have a decent idea of what T3D has going on under the hood and am especially psyched about the editors I've been playing with.
12/18/2009 (2:39 pm)
So, I'm looking at the UDK - Wow! Awesome levels! Sprawling even!Pretty Pretty Pretty.
But... I try to start WORKING with it. I know, I'll try working with a texture! I'll try to repaint something from the Manta model.
Looks simple enough... I just need to follow that line to find where the diffuse is and.... OH GODThis is what a high level engine is. It probably took them over 50 people just to put that level together, and it really shows. If you already have industry experience or you're some shader savant, maybe you'll have a clue what exactly is going on here.
For the rest of us mortals, I'm glad torque has straightforward editors. It actually took me 10-15 minutes to find the material editor. Their tutorial said "DOUBLE CLICK ON THIS THING THAT'S BURIED 6 MENUS DEEP"
UDK looks sweet, but I can't imagine myself accomplishing anything substantial with my limited expertise. See, each facet of UDK begs for a professional person with many years experience. It's unstuitable for a small team or an individual.
Whereas I have a decent idea of what T3D has going on under the hood and am especially psyched about the editors I've been playing with.
#10
12/18/2009 (2:43 pm)
Moderator - Stay on topic: "Why Torque 3D is better for me".
#11
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=710137
12/18/2009 (2:46 pm)
@Daniel - Perhaps you haven't seen these videos from 3DBuzz specifically for UDK. Check them out. High quality and VERY informative.http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=710137
#12
I'm not passing full judgment just because I'm confused now. If I did that, I wouldn't like T3D now :) That's a nice repository of videos, and I think T3D needs some of them! (more from deborah, rather)
12/18/2009 (2:51 pm)
Will do.I'm not passing full judgment just because I'm confused now. If I did that, I wouldn't like T3D now :) That's a nice repository of videos, and I think T3D needs some of them! (more from deborah, rather)
#13
http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=181409
12/18/2009 (2:59 pm)
GarageGames REALLY need to commission 3DBuzz. Unity just commissioned 3DBuzz for some videos and they are awesome.http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=181409
#14
I started this post from the small business perspective of using the engine for a game that would be SOLD. (not for a student project) Anything free for a student is great, can't say anything bad about that.
I have discussed this upcoming UDK licensing with Mark Rein years ago at GDC. So I was expecting the licensing to be a bit better than this for an Indie shop, but it is disappointing that they went with the 25% route. I could understand this amount of Royalty if they were providing the higher level of support, and a publishing system. i.e. Steam or something like that along with the license.
Realistically if I develop a game using UDK then I shell out 25% to Epic, and I have to share another portion of the proceeds with the companies I use to distribute the game. Then there are taxes! :)
I created a finincial spreadsheet on the costs of developing a game on UDK, and the net profit drops for an indie in comparison to a game developed with Torque 3D.
This is from my individual perspective, and I like working the financial aspects in spreadsheets before jumping in with both feet.
There are advantages to using unreal, like showing off a demo to a perspective employer, telling people you use the Unreal Engine, etc.
12/18/2009 (3:13 pm)
This post was not to start a flame fight, really.I started this post from the small business perspective of using the engine for a game that would be SOLD. (not for a student project) Anything free for a student is great, can't say anything bad about that.
I have discussed this upcoming UDK licensing with Mark Rein years ago at GDC. So I was expecting the licensing to be a bit better than this for an Indie shop, but it is disappointing that they went with the 25% route. I could understand this amount of Royalty if they were providing the higher level of support, and a publishing system. i.e. Steam or something like that along with the license.
Realistically if I develop a game using UDK then I shell out 25% to Epic, and I have to share another portion of the proceeds with the companies I use to distribute the game. Then there are taxes! :)
I created a finincial spreadsheet on the costs of developing a game on UDK, and the net profit drops for an indie in comparison to a game developed with Torque 3D.
This is from my individual perspective, and I like working the financial aspects in spreadsheets before jumping in with both feet.
There are advantages to using unreal, like showing off a demo to a perspective employer, telling people you use the Unreal Engine, etc.
#15
I like how the movement of light sources casts shadows.
I have to agree with earlier posts about tutorial videos. They really add value to the UDK engine.
More people may be willing to part with their money if they can see in videos what can be done with T3D.
12/18/2009 (3:29 pm)
Torque 3D is better for me because of Dynamic Lighting!I like how the movement of light sources casts shadows.
I have to agree with earlier posts about tutorial videos. They really add value to the UDK engine.
More people may be willing to part with their money if they can see in videos what can be done with T3D.
#16
12/18/2009 (3:40 pm)
@John - I agree with the lack of publishing system. That is the biggest turn off right now. Shelling out 25% plus the 30% - 40% for steam and then taxes, not much left after that. That is why I use Leadwerks as well. Eventually (in my dreams) I would like to be able to license Unreal. The performance is great on a half decent system. Torque3D just does not perform very well for its visuals. I hope there are more optimizations coming.
#17
Still awaiting flamey fanboyism with lot's of numbers in wordz and too much use of the letter "z" and "x" - maybe they're too busy trolling 4chxn...
[edit] lol at the huge UDK oops schematic
12/18/2009 (3:50 pm)
Don't know about 3DBuzz but apparently Mr Perry has been working on a series of video tutorials, so something to look forwards to ... hopefully.Still awaiting flamey fanboyism with lot's of numbers in wordz and too much use of the letter "z" and "x" - maybe they're too busy trolling 4chxn...
[edit] lol at the huge UDK oops schematic
#18
12/18/2009 (3:54 pm)
I am working on my own video tutorial series on the side, but I did just contact 3D Buzz. I love their work and am looking into a Torque 3D series. I have a feeling they could complete something faster and better than I can. 
#19
12/19/2009 (3:33 am)
I'm just interested - has anyone found a similar thread over on the UDK side of things? I had a brief look and couldn't find one. I'm a happy Torque user, but I always like to challenge my convictions - it makes them stronger ;). 
Employee Michael Perry
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