Uptake of T3D
by David james Stevenson · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 10/23/2009 (3:58 pm) · 19 replies
Hi to all the GG community
I hope this question is not taken badly by GG. I would like to know if a large party of the GG community has taken up on T3D from TGEA/TGE. I will tell you why i have asked this question. Iam a hobbyist i will never produce a commercial game. I bought TGE, then upgraded to TGEA both of which i thought was decent enough and the price was reasonable. I have also spent my hard earned money on Torsion, Plastic Tweaker and quite a few content packs. I do not think T3D is worth what GG is asking (which is my opinion). They have had a lot of my money anyway. I posted a remark about the customer is obviously always right, that is where GG gets there income. But the answer from the GG staff was that they detested this remark. I myself am self employed, i need customers just as much as GG. My wife works in the service industry and has to keep this in mind at all times. It is also philosophy that will or could make or break a company, perhaps not in the short term but in the long term, its a philosophy that will never go away. I personally think the asking price for T3D is far to high for a hobbyist that will never produce a commercial game. Actually its just making me look more at UNITY. Maybe they would appreciate my money. I must stress that this is just my opinion. Just as a end note i would like to sat hello to the all GG community as this is what keeps GG going.
Cheers
DJS.
I hope this question is not taken badly by GG. I would like to know if a large party of the GG community has taken up on T3D from TGEA/TGE. I will tell you why i have asked this question. Iam a hobbyist i will never produce a commercial game. I bought TGE, then upgraded to TGEA both of which i thought was decent enough and the price was reasonable. I have also spent my hard earned money on Torsion, Plastic Tweaker and quite a few content packs. I do not think T3D is worth what GG is asking (which is my opinion). They have had a lot of my money anyway. I posted a remark about the customer is obviously always right, that is where GG gets there income. But the answer from the GG staff was that they detested this remark. I myself am self employed, i need customers just as much as GG. My wife works in the service industry and has to keep this in mind at all times. It is also philosophy that will or could make or break a company, perhaps not in the short term but in the long term, its a philosophy that will never go away. I personally think the asking price for T3D is far to high for a hobbyist that will never produce a commercial game. Actually its just making me look more at UNITY. Maybe they would appreciate my money. I must stress that this is just my opinion. Just as a end note i would like to sat hello to the all GG community as this is what keeps GG going.
Cheers
DJS.
About the author
#2
10/23/2009 (5:52 pm)
I will upgrade likely after my game is released. Or maybe not. it depends on how limited TGEA becomes for my needs. Currently it does what I need it to do with AFX 1.x. I will be upgrading AFX to 2.0 soon though. 
#3
10/23/2009 (11:35 pm)
How many? So far about 20% of the people who have ever licensed either TGE or TGEA have picked up Torque 3D. That's much better than I expected considering that we've only been 1.0 for about 3 weeks. Pick up the demo and try out the tools. If the value over TGE / TGEA isn't immediately apparent to you, the product might not be for you. As for looking at Unity, I'm hard pressed to understand what you think you'll find there over what you have now (TGEA). Web deployment? Regardless, you'll be able to get our 'Artist' version of Torque 3D, which is fully featured, but lacking source code, for just a $205 upgrade (applying $295 from owning TGEA). This compares favorable with Unity Pro, which also does not include source code, but costs $1500 / seat and requires another $500 for their proprietary version control (a must if you work on a team). I think you have the right tool now and if you want to step up, Torque is still the right choice by a wide margin. 
#4
That meme is a guaranteed path to bankruptcy, and it needs to die.
10/24/2009 (12:04 am)
For the record, I too detest the "customer is always right" meme. Customers tend to forget that a business exists to make a profit for the owner(s). They often make demands that are completely unrealistic and which would bankrupt a business that attempted to fulfill them.That meme is a guaranteed path to bankruptcy, and it needs to die.
#5
Nice.. that's a great start.. a really great start.
...and the meme of the Customer is always right.. has nothing to do with business or prices.. it's about treating the customer with courtesy and respect, even if it means swallowing your pride.. not swallowing your bankruptcy notice.
10/24/2009 (12:47 am)
Quote:So far about 20% of the people who have ever licensed either TGE or TGEA have picked up Torque 3D.
Nice.. that's a great start.. a really great start.
...and the meme of the Customer is always right.. has nothing to do with business or prices.. it's about treating the customer with courtesy and respect, even if it means swallowing your pride.. not swallowing your bankruptcy notice.
#6
I no longer use TGE for any of my projects and merely use it to assist in porting some of the older scripts and assets to TGEA.
Soul Wars and RE-Spawn will continue to be developed on TGEA (although Soul Wars might be pushed out on T3D instead).
All my future projects will be pushed out on T3D.
What is the moral, well T3D is extremely well priced, unfortunately we were all a little spoilt by having such a high quality engine for such a low price ... if you compare current FREE and COMMERCIAL engines you will find that T3D stands heads above shoulders of the FREE ones and that the majority of the COMMERCIAL ones with better features are like 100 times the price with very restrictive licenses to boot.
In the end Garage Games is a business, and yes it is a business based on the users and buyers of their game engine technology, but none-the-less they still need to operate as such.
Garage Games have mentioned an Artists version of T3D for a very reasonable price, and that is probably what you are looking for ... as a hobbyist game developer ... not sure what restrictions will be on this version though.
If you are really feeling hard done by, then maybe you should look at some of the FREE engines and realise how worth the money T3D actually is ... trust me I have been down that route before and it is a nightmare.
If you want to go the Unity route then that is entirely your decision and I don't think anyone will try to convince you otherwise.
This message is more aimed at offering my gratitude to Garage Games for an awesome piece of technology that I find extremely reasonably priced. It is so well priced that another developer joining me on my Wormwood project is going to purchasing T3D in order to get a valid license.
Good luck with your endevours and future decision David James Stevenson.
10/24/2009 (6:51 am)
I for one own TGE, TGEA and I did the pre-order thing and Upgraded to T3D. I no longer use TGE for any of my projects and merely use it to assist in porting some of the older scripts and assets to TGEA.
Soul Wars and RE-Spawn will continue to be developed on TGEA (although Soul Wars might be pushed out on T3D instead).
All my future projects will be pushed out on T3D.
What is the moral, well T3D is extremely well priced, unfortunately we were all a little spoilt by having such a high quality engine for such a low price ... if you compare current FREE and COMMERCIAL engines you will find that T3D stands heads above shoulders of the FREE ones and that the majority of the COMMERCIAL ones with better features are like 100 times the price with very restrictive licenses to boot.
In the end Garage Games is a business, and yes it is a business based on the users and buyers of their game engine technology, but none-the-less they still need to operate as such.
Garage Games have mentioned an Artists version of T3D for a very reasonable price, and that is probably what you are looking for ... as a hobbyist game developer ... not sure what restrictions will be on this version though.
If you are really feeling hard done by, then maybe you should look at some of the FREE engines and realise how worth the money T3D actually is ... trust me I have been down that route before and it is a nightmare.
If you want to go the Unity route then that is entirely your decision and I don't think anyone will try to convince you otherwise.
This message is more aimed at offering my gratitude to Garage Games for an awesome piece of technology that I find extremely reasonably priced. It is so well priced that another developer joining me on my Wormwood project is going to purchasing T3D in order to get a valid license.
Good luck with your endevours and future decision David James Stevenson.
#7
However I can see where David is coming from, as a hobbyist T3D is a bit expensive, but as a hobbyist I don't think T3D is for us, it's more for someone trying to produce a sellable, polished, game that utalizes current hardware to it's fullest.
10/24/2009 (7:39 am)
I think NovoGeek made a good point. We were spoiled with TGE and TGEA being so cheap and being so much better than anything else around their price range, as far as ease of use and prebuilt features.However I can see where David is coming from, as a hobbyist T3D is a bit expensive, but as a hobbyist I don't think T3D is for us, it's more for someone trying to produce a sellable, polished, game that utalizes current hardware to it's fullest.
#8
GG claims to care about Mac users, but their actions tell a different story. To put it bluntly, I no longer believe their claims. I may consider upgrading to T3D if the Mac version is ever finished, but I honestly don't expect that to ever happen.
10/24/2009 (11:51 am)
I haven't upgraded, because I feel like I've been ripped off - although that feeling has nothing whatsoever to do with the price of T3D. I first purchased TGE 1.4, then 1.5, then TGB. Each time around, I found that the Mac version was buggy and incomplete. Now I find that T3D for Mac is Intel-only, and (like always it seems) is missing some pieces.GG claims to care about Mac users, but their actions tell a different story. To put it bluntly, I no longer believe their claims. I may consider upgrading to T3D if the Mac version is ever finished, but I honestly don't expect that to ever happen.
#9
That's my hit of idealism for the day :P.
10/24/2009 (12:09 pm)
Quote:For the record, I too detest the "customer is always right" meme. Customers tend to forget that a business exists to make a profit for the owner(s).Businesses exist to provide services. Money *should* be a reward, not an objective.
That's my hit of idealism for the day :P.
#10
Ahhh ... if only it was that simple ... then it would be a perfect world.
Businesses exist to make money in order to be able to pay for the services we require to live (e.g. Food, Water, Gas, Electric, etc.). In a perfect world we would all be working in the jobs we wanted and be living in comfortable housing without having to worry about paying for the services. There would be no poor people and no rich people and everyone would work to the betterment of fellow man ... sound familiar?
Unfortunately this is not a perfect world and the services are a by-product of the basic fact of business: "Make money to cover costs more is considered a profit!"
The sooner you learn that ... the better off you will be and you won't end up sitting in a corner crying about how mean the businesses are out there because they won't give you stuff for free.
p.s. I am not aiming this directly at you or implying that you are that way inclined ... I am just trying to make a point.
10/24/2009 (2:41 pm)
Quote:Businesses exist to provide services. Money *should* be a reward, not an objective.
Ahhh ... if only it was that simple ... then it would be a perfect world.
Businesses exist to make money in order to be able to pay for the services we require to live (e.g. Food, Water, Gas, Electric, etc.). In a perfect world we would all be working in the jobs we wanted and be living in comfortable housing without having to worry about paying for the services. There would be no poor people and no rich people and everyone would work to the betterment of fellow man ... sound familiar?
Unfortunately this is not a perfect world and the services are a by-product of the basic fact of business: "Make money to cover costs more is considered a profit!"
The sooner you learn that ... the better off you will be and you won't end up sitting in a corner crying about how mean the businesses are out there because they won't give you stuff for free.
p.s. I am not aiming this directly at you or implying that you are that way inclined ... I am just trying to make a point.
#11
Here is a quick comparison with Unity:
Unity:
Price: 199 - Indie/1500 - Pro
Source code: No to both above licenses
Activation model: Activation Key, good for 2 activations at any give time
Feature set: Comparable to T3D
T3D:
Price: 500 - Artist/1000 - Pro (705 for Pro if you already own TGEA)
Source Code: Pro license or better only
Activation Model: Absolutely None, install as many times as you like, use for as many projects as you like
Feature Set: Comparable to Unity
-----
Now if those that want to go to unity and be limited on what they can do with the engine because of the lack of source code then feel free. I myself will upgrade to T3D once i can afford it. I myself want source code to the engine that i purchase, Unity does not provide that in any of their publicly posted licences. GG Provides the Source Code to you if you purchase the Pro license or better for T3D, and at less than half the price (for me at least) than the Unity Pro license i am completely sold on it at this point.
I have 3 game projects active right now. Once i finish my space sim and have save up enough i will buy T3D Pro and upgrade my other two projects to that engine.
Am I disappointed that TGEA is going the way of the wind considering i only upgraded to TGEA this year? yeah a little, but saying that, time marches on, progress is made.
I have been using Torque happily since 2004. Upgraded a few times, spent money on packs and such. And have (until recently) never seriously looked at any other engine since then. Recently i looked at other engines, such as Unity, Ogre, and others. But NONE, and i mean NONE provide for what i am looking for in a game engine. The only one that matches is Torque.
I personally am a Happy Torquer, have been since '04 and at this point there is no plans to change that.
Take this info for whatever you like, but this is my opinion.
10/24/2009 (4:12 pm)
I have done some research into features of T3D compared to other engines. And what i have come up with is that T3D is priced low. Especially considering what you get.Here is a quick comparison with Unity:
Unity:
Price: 199 - Indie/1500 - Pro
Source code: No to both above licenses
Activation model: Activation Key, good for 2 activations at any give time
Feature set: Comparable to T3D
T3D:
Price: 500 - Artist/1000 - Pro (705 for Pro if you already own TGEA)
Source Code: Pro license or better only
Activation Model: Absolutely None, install as many times as you like, use for as many projects as you like
Feature Set: Comparable to Unity
-----
Now if those that want to go to unity and be limited on what they can do with the engine because of the lack of source code then feel free. I myself will upgrade to T3D once i can afford it. I myself want source code to the engine that i purchase, Unity does not provide that in any of their publicly posted licences. GG Provides the Source Code to you if you purchase the Pro license or better for T3D, and at less than half the price (for me at least) than the Unity Pro license i am completely sold on it at this point.
I have 3 game projects active right now. Once i finish my space sim and have save up enough i will buy T3D Pro and upgrade my other two projects to that engine.
Am I disappointed that TGEA is going the way of the wind considering i only upgraded to TGEA this year? yeah a little, but saying that, time marches on, progress is made.
I have been using Torque happily since 2004. Upgraded a few times, spent money on packs and such. And have (until recently) never seriously looked at any other engine since then. Recently i looked at other engines, such as Unity, Ogre, and others. But NONE, and i mean NONE provide for what i am looking for in a game engine. The only one that matches is Torque.
I personally am a Happy Torquer, have been since '04 and at this point there is no plans to change that.
Take this info for whatever you like, but this is my opinion.
#12
A lot of or some of the GG community people consider the source code a god send. As iam not a coder in any shape or form. The source code does not come any were near the top of my list, as i will never dip into the source code. I would rather have a program that is clean with no bugs. As i have stated i will never produce a commercial game, so the money i would spend would not be recuperated. I just like TGE/TGEA as product, even with the bugs. As for customers, i have stated that iam self employed & my wife works in the service industry. We both get unhappy customers & some that are down right idiots. If you selling something you have to be kind & take it with a pinch of salt, otherwise a reputation starts & over time people talk to each other & things start to downgrade. Where would any company be without customers. Personally i to would like to see GG get better & better truly. As i have said i enjoy TGE/TGEA. But in the current economic situation some of the current GG community can spend that amount of money & i will bet that most of the GG community who has already upgraded will recoup this money from producing a commercial game of sorts. In the current situation my morgage, kids etc take precedence. I would like to see a artist version at a lower price. I do not know what the restriction this would mean for this version, but any help would be helpful. Again my opinion.
Thanks for reading & good look to everyone.
DJS.
10/25/2009 (8:10 am)
Hi to all the GG communityA lot of or some of the GG community people consider the source code a god send. As iam not a coder in any shape or form. The source code does not come any were near the top of my list, as i will never dip into the source code. I would rather have a program that is clean with no bugs. As i have stated i will never produce a commercial game, so the money i would spend would not be recuperated. I just like TGE/TGEA as product, even with the bugs. As for customers, i have stated that iam self employed & my wife works in the service industry. We both get unhappy customers & some that are down right idiots. If you selling something you have to be kind & take it with a pinch of salt, otherwise a reputation starts & over time people talk to each other & things start to downgrade. Where would any company be without customers. Personally i to would like to see GG get better & better truly. As i have said i enjoy TGE/TGEA. But in the current economic situation some of the current GG community can spend that amount of money & i will bet that most of the GG community who has already upgraded will recoup this money from producing a commercial game of sorts. In the current situation my morgage, kids etc take precedence. I would like to see a artist version at a lower price. I do not know what the restriction this would mean for this version, but any help would be helpful. Again my opinion.
Thanks for reading & good look to everyone.
DJS.
#13
Once again, good luck and I hope that it all works out. :)
10/25/2009 (2:00 pm)
David, Garage Games has committed to an Artists version for half the price ... so I think you will see it soon enough.Once again, good luck and I hope that it all works out. :)
#14
The artist version is going to be fantastic for artists. From what GG has said, it will be the full version, (none of that tiered garbage) so you'll be able to use the same tools as those with the source.
It sounds like a win win for everyone.
10/25/2009 (2:12 pm)
Quote:then it would be a perfect world.It isn't?? Darn. hahaha.
The artist version is going to be fantastic for artists. From what GG has said, it will be the full version, (none of that tiered garbage) so you'll be able to use the same tools as those with the source.
It sounds like a win win for everyone.
#15
I don't understand how you plan to make a game without writing any code. Even with UNITY and other game engines, you still have to write scripts. Bottom line is that in order to prodcue a game it's going to require code. Maybe i misunderstood your point?
Also you said Torque3D wasn't worth the price but provided no reason why you felt this way. I'd be curious to understand why you think Torque3D isn't worth the price.
10/25/2009 (4:28 pm)
Quote:A lot of or some of the GG community people consider the source code a god send. As iam not a coder in any shape or form. The source code does not come any were near the top of my list, as i will never dip into the source code.
I don't understand how you plan to make a game without writing any code. Even with UNITY and other game engines, you still have to write scripts. Bottom line is that in order to prodcue a game it's going to require code. Maybe i misunderstood your point?
Also you said Torque3D wasn't worth the price but provided no reason why you felt this way. I'd be curious to understand why you think Torque3D isn't worth the price.
#16
Source code available lets you implement resources or add middleware (better foliage, skies, more advanced sound & music engines, updaters, network libraries). It also more easily lets you turn the engine into something other than the default FPS mode.
10/25/2009 (5:14 pm)
You don't even get a bug-free product when you purchase Unreal Engine (for $lots). There are always tweaks and fixes to implement in any product of this scale, especially since everybody uses it differently. Even an accounting programs has several markets to cater to, even within just one nation.Source code available lets you implement resources or add middleware (better foliage, skies, more advanced sound & music engines, updaters, network libraries). It also more easily lets you turn the engine into something other than the default FPS mode.
#17
Just to answer Jason Guzzardo question iam not at a level were iam able to rework or mod the source code & maybe i will never be. Maybe some one will correct me as iam a noob as far as coding but i could try (very hard) changing some scripts. With the help of ourselves the GG community. I could say to my wife iam spending alot of money upgrading to T3D which i would seriously like to please do not get me wrong. I hope T3D is the best of the best. It seems Unity is a bad word in this post.
Thanks again.
DJS.
10/25/2009 (5:24 pm)
Hi againJust to answer Jason Guzzardo question iam not at a level were iam able to rework or mod the source code & maybe i will never be. Maybe some one will correct me as iam a noob as far as coding but i could try (very hard) changing some scripts. With the help of ourselves the GG community. I could say to my wife iam spending alot of money upgrading to T3D which i would seriously like to please do not get me wrong. I hope T3D is the best of the best. It seems Unity is a bad word in this post.
Thanks again.
DJS.
#18
What people are saying is that to get a comparable feature set with Unity you have to spend $1500 to get Pro, the Indie version is missing things like realtime shadows, full screen fx, etc, plus your team may also need the version control software for another $500.
It can be a lot more expensive than Torque 3D for the same feature set and you don't get the source code either.
Now you may only want what's included with Unity Indie and if so $200 might be your best route but I'd be careful about that decision as it's a big jump from $200 to $1500 if you do find you want the extra features.
10/25/2009 (5:59 pm)
Unity isn't a bad word in this post at all, anyone that has used it will agree it's a great engine that's well structured and laid out, much easier to pick up than Torque if I'm honest.What people are saying is that to get a comparable feature set with Unity you have to spend $1500 to get Pro, the Indie version is missing things like realtime shadows, full screen fx, etc, plus your team may also need the version control software for another $500.
It can be a lot more expensive than Torque 3D for the same feature set and you don't get the source code either.
Now you may only want what's included with Unity Indie and if so $200 might be your best route but I'd be careful about that decision as it's a big jump from $200 to $1500 if you do find you want the extra features.
#19
Torque 3D, as are all of the other Torque products, game engines not game builders. If you do not have the expertise to use it, then it isn't the middleware offering that fits your needs. If you can get away without scripting at all in Unity, go ahead, we will all wish you the best of luck and look forward to hearing about your projects.
We are all in the same boat: looking to have some fun doing something very rewarding. I picked Torque up because of the source code, its something I really enjoy messing around with. Unforunately, its one of the reasons why I could never use Unity for a proper project.
10/25/2009 (6:40 pm)
Quote:It seems Unity is a bad word in this post.Why do people take constructive criticism as hostility towards their opinion? So many GG'ers have expressed their enjoyment while using Unity - there are literally dozens of threads talking about it.
Torque 3D, as are all of the other Torque products, game engines not game builders. If you do not have the expertise to use it, then it isn't the middleware offering that fits your needs. If you can get away without scripting at all in Unity, go ahead, we will all wish you the best of luck and look forward to hearing about your projects.
We are all in the same boat: looking to have some fun doing something very rewarding. I picked Torque up because of the source code, its something I really enjoy messing around with. Unforunately, its one of the reasons why I could never use Unity for a proper project.
Torque 3D Owner Andrew Brady
I'm sure they would. Of course, if you want something somewhat close to T3D (and I stress somewhat) you will pay more than what T3D is listed for. They do have the fairly cheap version which for your purposes might work out well.
I personally think the current price for T3D is appropriate, if not on the low side. That doesn't mean I think there shouldn't be an artist version of some kind though.
As far as the thread you referenced, I do remember it. Both sides had valid points but the question is, where does the common ground rest. I think GG has made that choice and is moving forward for better or worse.. hopefully for the better (and it does appear imo to be so).
Best wishes,
~LK~