Official Torque 3D Documentation Feedback
by Michael Perry · in Torque 3D Beginner · 10/21/2009 (1:59 pm) · 207 replies
=========================================================================
This Thread Is The Official Documentation Feedback Area For Torque 3D
If you want to quick search for all Torque 3D Doc Updates, perform a keyword search in your browser for "Documentation Update"
=========================================================================
Torque 3D Wiki
Documentation Landing Page
Official Documentation
By using this thread as a central source to leave documentation feedback, we can keep the other forums clean.
Feel free to post any criticism, suggestions, bugs (missing images or dead hyperlinks), outdated information, etc.
Purpose of the Thread:
- Provide a central thread for Torque 3D users to post their thoughts, suggestions, and criticisms about documentation.
Targets:
- Official documentation
Suggestions for Posts:
- What is the #1 thing you would like added to the official docs?
- What area of the docs do you think needs the most work?
- What do you see in other tech docs, be it for other Torque engines or non-Torque tech, that you think would be beneficial to have in the docs?
- Bring attention to resources, tutorials, articles, or community member submissions you think should be merged into the official docs
...etc, etc
So, the overall concept of this thread is pretty simple. This is your chance to talk until your face turns blue about what you want from the docs.
Be as clear, descriptive, and specific as you can!
You can find the archived feedback thread from the beta here: Beta Documentation Feedback.
7/17/09 Update: Tooltips work. Component Tutorials work in certain browsers. CLICK HERE for SVN Change Log.
7/31/09 Update: Posted full TOC for docs, using WIP template to hold spot for final docs to be written. CLICK HERE for SVN Change Log.
9/24/09 to 10/14/09 Update: CLICK HERE for full SVN change log
2/4/2010 Update: First major update to documentation pushed. Meant to coincide with 1.1 Beta, but full 1.1 docs are not finished. CLICK HERE for list of changes.
This Thread Is The Official Documentation Feedback Area For Torque 3D
If you want to quick search for all Torque 3D Doc Updates, perform a keyword search in your browser for "Documentation Update"
=========================================================================
Torque 3D Wiki
Documentation Landing Page
Official Documentation
By using this thread as a central source to leave documentation feedback, we can keep the other forums clean.
Feel free to post any criticism, suggestions, bugs (missing images or dead hyperlinks), outdated information, etc.
Purpose of the Thread:
- Provide a central thread for Torque 3D users to post their thoughts, suggestions, and criticisms about documentation.
Targets:
- Official documentation
Suggestions for Posts:
- What is the #1 thing you would like added to the official docs?
- What area of the docs do you think needs the most work?
- What do you see in other tech docs, be it for other Torque engines or non-Torque tech, that you think would be beneficial to have in the docs?
- Bring attention to resources, tutorials, articles, or community member submissions you think should be merged into the official docs
...etc, etc
So, the overall concept of this thread is pretty simple. This is your chance to talk until your face turns blue about what you want from the docs.
Be as clear, descriptive, and specific as you can!
You can find the archived feedback thread from the beta here: Beta Documentation Feedback.
Known Issues
- Docs are in progress7/17/09 Update: Tooltips work. Component Tutorials work in certain browsers. CLICK HERE for SVN Change Log.
7/31/09 Update: Posted full TOC for docs, using WIP template to hold spot for final docs to be written. CLICK HERE for SVN Change Log.
9/24/09 to 10/14/09 Update: CLICK HERE for full SVN change log
2/4/2010 Update: First major update to documentation pushed. Meant to coincide with 1.1 Beta, but full 1.1 docs are not finished. CLICK HERE for list of changes.
About the author
Programmer.
#43
3 typos :
in Introduction / using the docs : one sub-chapter is spelled "Referenece"
in Engine / Rendering / Source Code Tour / GFX Core : you speak about 5 main GfxDevice classes and list only 4
in Engine / Rendering / Shader Constant Buffers / Concept : you spelled DiretX 10's version
1 missing file :
in Introduction / using the docs / Reference :
the link to Torque 3D C++ Engine Reference point to no file.
Nicolas Buquet
www.buquet-net.com/cv/
11/11/2009 (5:06 am)
Good!3 typos :
in Introduction / using the docs : one sub-chapter is spelled "Referenece"
in Engine / Rendering / Source Code Tour / GFX Core : you speak about 5 main GfxDevice classes and list only 4
in Engine / Rendering / Shader Constant Buffers / Concept : you spelled DiretX 10's version
1 missing file :
in Introduction / using the docs / Reference :
the link to Torque 3D C++ Engine Reference point to no file.
Nicolas Buquet
www.buquet-net.com/cv/
#44
Title: Torque3D Sidescrolling Platformer
Concepts covered: Scripting, player creation (can run, jump, using one of Torques standard assets would be fine for this), player spawning, collision, rigid bodies player can run into and they move, datablocks, how to setup sidescrolling camera that does not turn with player, how to restrict player movementens, (local) multiplayer
Opposition: none, but players can interact (collide) with each other
Challenge: Player reaches the end of the level (can be a rotating coin for example)
Time to complete: a few days
Hopefully this explains it easier to you. Thanks for listening anyways ;-).
11/11/2009 (12:13 pm)
Ok Michael, got it. So here is what I have in mind:Title: Torque3D Sidescrolling Platformer
Concepts covered: Scripting, player creation (can run, jump, using one of Torques standard assets would be fine for this), player spawning, collision, rigid bodies player can run into and they move, datablocks, how to setup sidescrolling camera that does not turn with player, how to restrict player movementens, (local) multiplayer
Opposition: none, but players can interact (collide) with each other
Challenge: Player reaches the end of the level (can be a rotating coin for example)
Time to complete: a few days
Hopefully this explains it easier to you. Thanks for listening anyways ;-).
#45
So you are talking about something similar to Shadow Complex?
11/11/2009 (12:19 pm)
Thanks for that Andy =)So you are talking about something similar to Shadow Complex?
#46
What just popped to my mind now is also this: It would be very nice to have some kind of flowchart where one can see which script calls which script when torque is starting up and running.
11/11/2009 (12:48 pm)
Yes michael, something in this direction...maybe a mix of shadow complex and little big planet. Ideally, the whole tutorial would be divided into small chapters, and I think very important regarding the scripting would be not only just the code, but also why it is coded as it is. A very good example of this is actually the TGB fish tutorials. What just popped to my mind now is also this: It would be very nice to have some kind of flowchart where one can see which script calls which script when torque is starting up and running.
#47
It will be a long read, broken up into several sections as you suggested. Here is what I am visualizing:
40% will be comprised of a design document blended with a tech document; the game play and tech features which will be achieved in the demo. The other 60% will be the actual tutorial that builds the game up from scratch.
My main priority is still finishing the base documentation, but this idea is very very intriguing. It's no small task, though. I might have to recruit some help with this to get it out in a timely manner.
11/11/2009 (1:04 pm)
I'm starting to get a good idea from this Andy. I'll be very honest that I have been wanting to develop a Shadow Complex kind of demo with Torque 3D ever since I played the game. I want to show that you can make something as beautiful and fun as you can with UE3, with ease. Now is the perfect opportunity to do so, with all this rabble rabble going on.It will be a long read, broken up into several sections as you suggested. Here is what I am visualizing:
40% will be comprised of a design document blended with a tech document; the game play and tech features which will be achieved in the demo. The other 60% will be the actual tutorial that builds the game up from scratch.
My main priority is still finishing the base documentation, but this idea is very very intriguing. It's no small task, though. I might have to recruit some help with this to get it out in a timely manner.
#48
I also think that it would be perfect for newcomers to torque, since it would allow you to actually create something fast which in turn will motivate even more. I think this is one of the main reasons why unity is often seen as more newcomer-friendly.
By the way, very nice job on the latest bunch of docs, I liked the GUI docs and tuts a lot.
11/11/2009 (1:20 pm)
thanks for the positive reply michael, this sounds really really great ;-)! I also think that it would be perfect for newcomers to torque, since it would allow you to actually create something fast which in turn will motivate even more. I think this is one of the main reasons why unity is often seen as more newcomer-friendly.
By the way, very nice job on the latest bunch of docs, I liked the GUI docs and tuts a lot.
#49
Is there ever going to be a fully up to date and documented DTS SDK?
As I stated in a response in this thread www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/105079/1#comment-696899
I'm creating this because I feel it deserves its own thread.
Is this ever going to get done. I mean this is a pretty big deal. That doesn't seem to be that big of a priority. "As it has gone on pretty much since GG started."
Why can this not get done?
as I stated in the response in the other thread.
Not that you have not done really awesome work on these things Chris but alot of this would have never been needed is the DTS SDK was fully documented and kept up to date so that all of the native exporters could be as well. Everyone that has ever worked on one of these exporters will say that. I have heard this from GG employees as well. I don't see why this is such and issue for them to get done.
I don't see why they can't dedicate a week or so of an employees time to sort all of this out and document it once and for all.
I just don't see collada as the solution to all of this. If anything due to the fact that every applications Collada exporter seems to have it's own way of doing things if anything it seems to have made the pipeline even more tedious.
DTS v2 if you will, is a perfectly fine format it would be much better to just have working native exporters there are plenty of people that don't mind working on them their biggest issue that they all face is the DTS documentation and SDK.
So instead of fixing the issue all you have done by adding collada is add a whole new layer of problems without doing anything about the underlying issue. There was never a need for another format the need was to document the one that you have so that people can actually make tools for it.
11/11/2009 (1:40 pm)
reposted at Michael Perry's request.Is there ever going to be a fully up to date and documented DTS SDK?
As I stated in a response in this thread www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/105079/1#comment-696899
I'm creating this because I feel it deserves its own thread.
Is this ever going to get done. I mean this is a pretty big deal. That doesn't seem to be that big of a priority. "As it has gone on pretty much since GG started."
Why can this not get done?
as I stated in the response in the other thread.
Not that you have not done really awesome work on these things Chris but alot of this would have never been needed is the DTS SDK was fully documented and kept up to date so that all of the native exporters could be as well. Everyone that has ever worked on one of these exporters will say that. I have heard this from GG employees as well. I don't see why this is such and issue for them to get done.
I don't see why they can't dedicate a week or so of an employees time to sort all of this out and document it once and for all.
I just don't see collada as the solution to all of this. If anything due to the fact that every applications Collada exporter seems to have it's own way of doing things if anything it seems to have made the pipeline even more tedious.
DTS v2 if you will, is a perfectly fine format it would be much better to just have working native exporters there are plenty of people that don't mind working on them their biggest issue that they all face is the DTS documentation and SDK.
So instead of fixing the issue all you have done by adding collada is add a whole new layer of problems without doing anything about the underlying issue. There was never a need for another format the need was to document the one that you have so that people can actually make tools for it.
#50
Is that file missing or is the url incorrect?
~~~
And James, I agree with the points you bring up, but I have a hard time understanding what you are saying sometimes. Not to be argumentative or nitpicking but may I humbly suggest you toss in more punctuation (and you certainly aren't the only one who does this, so take it as a general reminder for everyone to aim for clarity in their posts).
This paragraph, for example, is four, or more, sentences run together ( I had to read through it a few times to know what you were trying to say):
Just a suggestion you may consider; not a demand.
Thanks for listening.
11/11/2009 (3:02 pm)
Thanks for the new doc update.Quote:The requested URL /torque-3d/official/content/documentation/Introduction/Torque 3D - Engine Reference.chm was not found on this server.
Is that file missing or is the url incorrect?
~~~
And James, I agree with the points you bring up, but I have a hard time understanding what you are saying sometimes. Not to be argumentative or nitpicking but may I humbly suggest you toss in more punctuation (and you certainly aren't the only one who does this, so take it as a general reminder for everyone to aim for clarity in their posts).
This paragraph, for example, is four, or more, sentences run together ( I had to read through it a few times to know what you were trying to say):
Quote:DTS v2 if you will, is a perfectly fine format[period] it would be much better to just have working native exporters[period] there are plenty of people that don't mind working on them[period] their biggest issue that they all face is the DTS documentation and SDK.
Just a suggestion you may consider; not a demand.
Thanks for listening.
#51
11/11/2009 (3:11 pm)
@Gerry - Yeah, I pushed the docs before that finished. It actually took Doxygen 3 hours to build the engine reference CHM. I'm going over it now to see how it turned out, and will commit it later today if it is solid
#52
Currently we are using DTS as our binary art format because it was convenient for us at the time to just make minor extensions to the engine's capability to save DTS files. With Collada, DTS is primarily used as a caching format to store data added/edited from multiple locations and to speed up loading.
Moving forward we want to choose or design a new binary format that is better laid out, easier to document, and much easier to work with than the DTS format (something along the lines of the binary Collada format for example). Once we have that format we will document it very heavily and probably release a very simple SDK to help with creating exporters (open source?).
To be clear, we most likely won't be writing exporters for that binary format ourselves but instead will be using it for caching and to speed up load times for our import pipeline. However, it is one of goals that it would be easier enough to work with that others could write exporters for it if they so desire without nearly as much work as it was to work with DTS in the past.
We probably won't start work on this new format until early 2010 and it will take some time and iteration for us to get it to a stable enough point that we could release it to the public. Just know that we are aware of the issues and are looking to address them.
11/11/2009 (3:20 pm)
We believe that Collada and a smooth import pipeline is definitely the future of Torque. The Collada exporters and importers have made huge strides over the last 3 years and will continue to get better. Additionally, our Collada import pipeline gets better almost daily. With Collada it is easier to get artwork into Torque than it ever has been. The more we use Collada, the better the format will get for everyone so we are heavily investing in it.Currently we are using DTS as our binary art format because it was convenient for us at the time to just make minor extensions to the engine's capability to save DTS files. With Collada, DTS is primarily used as a caching format to store data added/edited from multiple locations and to speed up loading.
Moving forward we want to choose or design a new binary format that is better laid out, easier to document, and much easier to work with than the DTS format (something along the lines of the binary Collada format for example). Once we have that format we will document it very heavily and probably release a very simple SDK to help with creating exporters (open source?).
To be clear, we most likely won't be writing exporters for that binary format ourselves but instead will be using it for caching and to speed up load times for our import pipeline. However, it is one of goals that it would be easier enough to work with that others could write exporters for it if they so desire without nearly as much work as it was to work with DTS in the past.
We probably won't start work on this new format until early 2010 and it will take some time and iteration for us to get it to a stable enough point that we could release it to the public. Just know that we are aware of the issues and are looking to address them.
#53
I look forward to it. Thanks.
And as for suggestions for toots... I wouldn't mind seeing more in the area of rpg ( not necessarily mmo ).
Let me try and fill out the framework you provided:
Title - The Torque Ages
Difficulty Level - easy to moderate
Concepts Covered - player creation and customization; melee system; non-combat npc interactions(dialog, trade, companions, etc.); gathering of experience-points and then leveling up to new character/skill level when enough xp is gained; inventory system; game split into multiple chapters(missions).
Challenge - Start out as a new recruit in the royal guard, stationed in ye olde D&D style village. A murder has been committed and the mayor is missing. Talk with the villagers to try and find out what happened... hopefully you will build up enough skills to deal with the bandits and wild beasts outside of the village if the clues lead in that direction. Feel free to take on any side-quests to help the general populace; it will help to stay on their good side since you are new in town and will no doubt need their co-operation.
Win Condition - Solve the mystery and rescue the mayor(or bring hir to justice).
Opposition - Not every npc can be trusted... puzzles abound... dungeons (and treasure) await...
Time to Complete - poweruser: 2 hours; true role player, who likes to immerse themselves in the environment and get to know all the characters: 2 days ;)
11/11/2009 (4:17 pm)
Quote: ...will commit it later today if it is solid...
I look forward to it. Thanks.
And as for suggestions for toots... I wouldn't mind seeing more in the area of rpg ( not necessarily mmo ).
Let me try and fill out the framework you provided:
Title - The Torque Ages
Difficulty Level - easy to moderate
Concepts Covered - player creation and customization; melee system; non-combat npc interactions(dialog, trade, companions, etc.); gathering of experience-points and then leveling up to new character/skill level when enough xp is gained; inventory system; game split into multiple chapters(missions).
Challenge - Start out as a new recruit in the royal guard, stationed in ye olde D&D style village. A murder has been committed and the mayor is missing. Talk with the villagers to try and find out what happened... hopefully you will build up enough skills to deal with the bandits and wild beasts outside of the village if the clues lead in that direction. Feel free to take on any side-quests to help the general populace; it will help to stay on their good side since you are new in town and will no doubt need their co-operation.
Win Condition - Solve the mystery and rescue the mayor(or bring hir to justice).
Opposition - Not every npc can be trusted... puzzles abound... dungeons (and treasure) await...
Time to Complete - poweruser: 2 hours; true role player, who likes to immerse themselves in the environment and get to know all the characters: 2 days ;)
#54
Title - The Torque Ages
Difficulty Level - Advanced
Concepts Covered - player creation and customization; melee system; non-combat npc interactions(dialog, trade, companions, etc.); gathering of experience-points and then leveling up to new character/skill level when enough xp is gained; inventory system; game split into multiple chapters(missions).
Challenge - Start out as a new recruit in the royal guard, stationed in ye olde D&D style village. A murder has been committed and the mayor is missing. Talk with the villagers to try and find out what happened... hopefully you will build up enough skills to deal with the bandits and wild beasts outside of the village if the clues lead in that direction. Feel free to take on any side-quests to help the general populace; it will help to stay on their good side since you are new in town and will no doubt need their co-operation.
Win Condition - Solve the mystery and rescue the mayor(or bring hir to justice).
Opposition - Not every npc can be trusted... puzzles abound... dungeons (and treasure) await...
Time to Complete - 3-7 days, without custom content creation, taking debugging and testing into consideration
And let me add something to that:
Time to Write Doc - With nothing else to do but write this tutorial, 2 months minimum.
11/11/2009 (4:55 pm)
@Gerry - Wow...umm, I need to correct some of your estimates:Title - The Torque Ages
Difficulty Level - Advanced
Concepts Covered - player creation and customization; melee system; non-combat npc interactions(dialog, trade, companions, etc.); gathering of experience-points and then leveling up to new character/skill level when enough xp is gained; inventory system; game split into multiple chapters(missions).
Challenge - Start out as a new recruit in the royal guard, stationed in ye olde D&D style village. A murder has been committed and the mayor is missing. Talk with the villagers to try and find out what happened... hopefully you will build up enough skills to deal with the bandits and wild beasts outside of the village if the clues lead in that direction. Feel free to take on any side-quests to help the general populace; it will help to stay on their good side since you are new in town and will no doubt need their co-operation.
Win Condition - Solve the mystery and rescue the mayor(or bring hir to justice).
Opposition - Not every npc can be trusted... puzzles abound... dungeons (and treasure) await...
Time to Complete - 3-7 days, without custom content creation, taking debugging and testing into consideration
And let me add something to that:
Time to Write Doc - With nothing else to do but write this tutorial, 2 months minimum.
#55
Sure, self-developed exporters for every major applicaton like 3ds max, maya, softimage xsi, lightwave, cinema 4d are expensive. Especially regular updates.
But this way you have the full control over the art-pipeline. The exporters are specialized to work with Torque3D. So you dont have problems to import the meshes into Torque3D. Things like Meshes, LOD, Portals, Materials, Animations, Billboards/Decals and Animation Triggers are exported always the same way.
11/11/2009 (5:16 pm)
@Matt Fairfax: Wrong. Collada is not the right format because the artist is always dependent from Autodesk, Maxon, Newtek, ... Sure, self-developed exporters for every major applicaton like 3ds max, maya, softimage xsi, lightwave, cinema 4d are expensive. Especially regular updates.
But this way you have the full control over the art-pipeline. The exporters are specialized to work with Torque3D. So you dont have problems to import the meshes into Torque3D. Things like Meshes, LOD, Portals, Materials, Animations, Billboards/Decals and Animation Triggers are exported always the same way.
#56
11/11/2009 (5:43 pm)
Michael, thanks for the update. When can we expect official documentation on zones, portals and triggers?
#57
11/11/2009 (6:02 pm)
@penbit - In the 1.1 documentation release.
#58
What estimates? I am merely making a tutorial suggestion, as had Andy, and what seemed to me requested input related to the documentation, including tutorials etc.
Sure. I wouldn't expect anything other than the most basic of pointers to get interested torque learners started in the right direction. Just a simple foundation which could be filled in as much as they wanted. For example, the 'player character creation and customization' could be nothing more than showing how one can offer players the choice between a warrior, thief or mage at the start of a game. With just hints for the tutorial reader on how they could proceed to develop a whole 'character creation' system if that was something they wanted. "Here are a few tools and here is some reference to where you should be looking if you want to move your game in such and such direction..."
I am not suggesting a whole rpg genre kit, but perhaps something that could provide the foundational knowledge to get one started in the right direction. And given enough people going through such a tutorial(like any of the tutorials), and some of them adding their own content and mods(if they decided to take it and run with it), it could possibly be the basis of a useful rpg kit... locally and organically grown. ;)
I demand nothing... expect nothing...
merely a suggestion
11/11/2009 (6:06 pm)
Quote:Wow...umm, I need to correct some of your estimates
What estimates? I am merely making a tutorial suggestion, as had Andy, and what seemed to me requested input related to the documentation, including tutorials etc.
Quote: Time to Complete - 3-7 days, without custom content creation, taking debugging and testing into consideration
Sure. I wouldn't expect anything other than the most basic of pointers to get interested torque learners started in the right direction. Just a simple foundation which could be filled in as much as they wanted. For example, the 'player character creation and customization' could be nothing more than showing how one can offer players the choice between a warrior, thief or mage at the start of a game. With just hints for the tutorial reader on how they could proceed to develop a whole 'character creation' system if that was something they wanted. "Here are a few tools and here is some reference to where you should be looking if you want to move your game in such and such direction..."
I am not suggesting a whole rpg genre kit, but perhaps something that could provide the foundational knowledge to get one started in the right direction. And given enough people going through such a tutorial(like any of the tutorials), and some of them adding their own content and mods(if they decided to take it and run with it), it could possibly be the basis of a useful rpg kit... locally and organically grown. ;)
Quote: Time to Write Doc - With nothing else to do but write this tutorial, 2 months minimum.
I demand nothing... expect nothing...
merely a suggestion
#59
11/11/2009 (6:36 pm)
@Gerry - It's a great suggestion, really. It would be a very useful guide. I just wanted to point out the times were a underestimated. Part of that is due to the content creation and design. The other parts require some custom code creation, possibly even an engine change or two.
#60
Oh, those times I put in there were meant to be proposed game play time, not the time it would take to complete the tutorial, sorry.
Which would make a tutorial, or any similar getting-started information, all the more valuable for anyone wanting to make a game of that type. This is the kind of request - wish really - behind my suggestion.
Thanks for your consideration.
11/11/2009 (9:48 pm)
Quote:I just wanted to point out the times were a underestimated.
Oh, those times I put in there were meant to be proposed game play time, not the time it would take to complete the tutorial, sorry.
Quote: ...custom code creation, possibly even an engine change or two.
Which would make a tutorial, or any similar getting-started information, all the more valuable for anyone wanting to make a game of that type. This is the kind of request - wish really - behind my suggestion.
Thanks for your consideration.
Employee Michael Perry
ZombieShortbus