MMORPGs
by Chris Sargent · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 10/04/2009 (7:19 pm) · 20 replies
Hi,
When I first bought TGE it was with the idea of making a MMORPG. After a ton of research and skill set analysis I decided to settle on a RPG. I know MMORPGs are many people's dreams. This is still my dream at some point in time. I read the post somewhat titled thinking about making a mmo read this first.
There is a lot of work involved and to be honest I wonder how Turbine with no previous games splashed on the scene with Asheron's Call and it became a hit. How did these people get funding with no prior games? Always made me wonder. Well they did partner with Microsoft, but still....
Anyways from the GDC in Austin, Blizzard-Activison was there ( I suppose it's Activision-Blizzard, but I like Blizard). They provided information about World of Warcraft and what it takes to run that game. They said that to run WOW, it takes 22,000 servers and a technical staff of 4,600 people. Of course that is a game with millions of players.
Even scaled down though to a small MMO, I would imagine that the amount of servers and technical staff would still be quite impressive.
Ok, sorry I lost my train of though where I was going with this. I promise I did have a goal is starting this thread....
When I first bought TGE it was with the idea of making a MMORPG. After a ton of research and skill set analysis I decided to settle on a RPG. I know MMORPGs are many people's dreams. This is still my dream at some point in time. I read the post somewhat titled thinking about making a mmo read this first.
There is a lot of work involved and to be honest I wonder how Turbine with no previous games splashed on the scene with Asheron's Call and it became a hit. How did these people get funding with no prior games? Always made me wonder. Well they did partner with Microsoft, but still....
Anyways from the GDC in Austin, Blizzard-Activison was there ( I suppose it's Activision-Blizzard, but I like Blizard). They provided information about World of Warcraft and what it takes to run that game. They said that to run WOW, it takes 22,000 servers and a technical staff of 4,600 people. Of course that is a game with millions of players.
Even scaled down though to a small MMO, I would imagine that the amount of servers and technical staff would still be quite impressive.
Ok, sorry I lost my train of though where I was going with this. I promise I did have a goal is starting this thread....
About the author
#2
Good luck though, I hope it works out which ever game you settle on making.
10/04/2009 (8:35 pm)
My team was going to make an MMORPG when we started out, but later decided that we just didn't have the experience with networking and game making in general. I am not trying to discourage you, I am just saying that you need to be dedicated to the game.Good luck though, I hope it works out which ever game you settle on making.
#3
10/04/2009 (9:52 pm)
yes, you need to make things that you can finish, maybe the solution is make single player RPGs with a multiplayer option... 
#4
If you're not rich, you need venture capital. To get that, you need a solid idea and some sort of demo, I guess. Or pie charts. That'll dazzle the suits enough to dip your hand in their account.
I think the early days of MMOs ran parallel to the pre-dotbomb days, so money was easy to come by ;)
10/04/2009 (10:32 pm)
I always liked "Actard" myself.If you're not rich, you need venture capital. To get that, you need a solid idea and some sort of demo, I guess. Or pie charts. That'll dazzle the suits enough to dip your hand in their account.
I think the early days of MMOs ran parallel to the pre-dotbomb days, so money was easy to come by ;)
#5
I decided on a RPG for the game with what I like to call elements of a MMO. I picture these things to be things that you can do in my RPG but would also be in an MMO, such as crafting for example. If it works in the RPG then I would have a fairly proven system to transfer to a networked game at a later date.
10/04/2009 (11:23 pm)
Javier,I decided on a RPG for the game with what I like to call elements of a MMO. I picture these things to be things that you can do in my RPG but would also be in an MMO, such as crafting for example. If it works in the RPG then I would have a fairly proven system to transfer to a networked game at a later date.
#6
I guess those early days must have been like that. Asheron's Call is still around today but in my opinion Turbine hasn't made another hit game like that one ever since.
Josh,
I agree if designed correctly that would help uncomplicate the maintaining of it, however at some point I would think that if successful or if you add new tech the maintenance requirements are going to increase no mater how well designed.
Bryce,
Thanks. I have the will/desire to get this done though it will be slow going as I need to learn new things and having to work around a day job well just slows things down lol.
10/04/2009 (11:27 pm)
Ronny,I guess those early days must have been like that. Asheron's Call is still around today but in my opinion Turbine hasn't made another hit game like that one ever since.
Josh,
I agree if designed correctly that would help uncomplicate the maintaining of it, however at some point I would think that if successful or if you add new tech the maintenance requirements are going to increase no mater how well designed.
Bryce,
Thanks. I have the will/desire to get this done though it will be slow going as I need to learn new things and having to work around a day job well just slows things down lol.
#7
10/26/2009 (7:28 am)
As sad as it is. I wish they would bring AC2 back lol. Or if they would just make an AC3 that might be awesome! 
#8
The things I remember most about the round-table was that 1) Zelda OoT had too much text and new RPG's needed to have less, and 2) only a couple of dev's thought online RPG's had much of a chance because of the story-oriented nature of the popular jRPG's of the time. They and a couple of people who would join the Everquest team were among those who thought that this funky online thing might just work for RPG's.
10/26/2009 (12:43 pm)
Turbine had been working hard since they started in 1994, and made some extremely powerful relationships in the industry. Man, I haven't thought about GDC Roadtrips Boston for a long time; especially the Online RPG roundtable. The things I remember most about the round-table was that 1) Zelda OoT had too much text and new RPG's needed to have less, and 2) only a couple of dev's thought online RPG's had much of a chance because of the story-oriented nature of the popular jRPG's of the time. They and a couple of people who would join the Everquest team were among those who thought that this funky online thing might just work for RPG's.
#9
I agree they really screwed people over with AC2. Selling an expansion for it then once they had the sales shutting the game down a month later, but I did like it.
If they ever make an AC3 they must not allow the bots.....
David,
Turbine has made some great partnerships I guess that is what keeps them going. I know about 8 months ago, when I stopped playing Lord of the Rings Online they had just secured funding for another MMO.
I use them as inspiration pertaining to the way they splashed on the scene.
10/27/2009 (7:00 pm)
Jessel,I agree they really screwed people over with AC2. Selling an expansion for it then once they had the sales shutting the game down a month later, but I did like it.
If they ever make an AC3 they must not allow the bots.....
David,
Turbine has made some great partnerships I guess that is what keeps them going. I know about 8 months ago, when I stopped playing Lord of the Rings Online they had just secured funding for another MMO.
I use them as inspiration pertaining to the way they splashed on the scene.
#10
I know its a lot of work and time but if you are intersted in making a mmorpg you are more then welcome to join my team.
here is my website if you are intersted.
http://ziroks.yolasite.com
11/26/2009 (11:52 am)
I'm thinking about making a mmorpg as well.I know its a lot of work and time but if you are intersted in making a mmorpg you are more then welcome to join my team.
here is my website if you are intersted.
http://ziroks.yolasite.com
#12
Game Design, Second Edition
Developing Online Games, An Insiders Guide
I found them handy.
Im still thinking of whether or not to buy this engine, somebody should convince me :P
12/05/2009 (9:38 pm)
There are two good books on this topic that I have had a read of. One tackles game design as a whole including all stages from the idea through to publishing the finished product. The other focus's on MMO type games as a whole and gives allot of case-files, what went wrong, things to watch out for, etc, etc.Game Design, Second Edition
Developing Online Games, An Insiders Guide
I found them handy.
Im still thinking of whether or not to buy this engine, somebody should convince me :P
#13
MMO is possible without hundreds of servers.
You just have to have a product that everybody is willing to play, and run one master server where everyone can feed off.
01/09/2010 (4:21 pm)
Huh?MMO is possible without hundreds of servers.
You just have to have a product that everybody is willing to play, and run one master server where everyone can feed off.
#14
Games like EVE Online, WoW, Runescape and other popular large-scale MMOs have thousands of servers to run their games.
01/09/2010 (7:25 pm)
Actually, you do need more than one server to support a popular MMORPG. One master server will not be able to support all the zones in your game, plus all the RPG logic, AI, databases, etc. Most MMORPGs have multiple servers, ie a master server, character server, and then servers for each zone.Games like EVE Online, WoW, Runescape and other popular large-scale MMOs have thousands of servers to run their games.
#15
it is possible to make a AAA mmo with a small team and small budget. you need a programming expert (expert in the engine you are using), a network expert (preferably one with mmo/online-game experience) , and an expert 3D artist. assuming those 3 have an income and willing to spend some of their personal money here and there for "game supplies", servers and whatnaught. you must start small and grow as revenue comes in. i am seeing it done as i speak, so it is very possible, you just have to have a highly skilled team. if you are missing one of those elements it is likely you will fall short of your goals to reach a AAA title.
Josh Engebretson did it. he had a vision, ignored all the naysayers and did what he needed to do to get the job done. let him be an example that commercial mmo's can be made by a small team. you will find that a lot of "indie devs" will say it's not possible, only because their team is not capable of doing it.
01/10/2010 (4:02 pm)
you do not need to start with 1000's of servers, rarely do indie companies do. they build up to that once revenue starts coming in.it is possible to make a AAA mmo with a small team and small budget. you need a programming expert (expert in the engine you are using), a network expert (preferably one with mmo/online-game experience) , and an expert 3D artist. assuming those 3 have an income and willing to spend some of their personal money here and there for "game supplies", servers and whatnaught. you must start small and grow as revenue comes in. i am seeing it done as i speak, so it is very possible, you just have to have a highly skilled team. if you are missing one of those elements it is likely you will fall short of your goals to reach a AAA title.
Josh Engebretson did it. he had a vision, ignored all the naysayers and did what he needed to do to get the job done. let him be an example that commercial mmo's can be made by a small team. you will find that a lot of "indie devs" will say it's not possible, only because their team is not capable of doing it.
#16
I completed a few packs of my own over the last five years to help the MMORPG individual developer. The mmo network, scripting, sound profiles, spell casting effects, ai, overhead maps and tons of things to unlock and special features galore with gui which makes a game possible -- are all finished and "works great".
Nice pack set? Hmmmmmmm? The only thing I left out the 3D expert.
So as far as revenue coming in, there is so much competition in the industry now that little bugs, like me, get squashed. Don't count on a fan following to get word around. Around these parts, people will drive away sales if you don't know how to sell a product, and will keep their best resources a secret anyway.
01/15/2010 (11:48 pm)
Well said, Stadi, but you don't even need to have a team at all. At this point in Torque history, you can just mix and match packs yourself.I completed a few packs of my own over the last five years to help the MMORPG individual developer. The mmo network, scripting, sound profiles, spell casting effects, ai, overhead maps and tons of things to unlock and special features galore with gui which makes a game possible -- are all finished and "works great".
Nice pack set? Hmmmmmmm? The only thing I left out the 3D expert.
So as far as revenue coming in, there is so much competition in the industry now that little bugs, like me, get squashed. Don't count on a fan following to get word around. Around these parts, people will drive away sales if you don't know how to sell a product, and will keep their best resources a secret anyway.
#17
I have to strongly disagree. At this point in Torque history, you have a lot of tools at your disposal to make creating an MMO with T3D easier, that's true- but making an MMO is not something that can be accomplished by a single person unless they are a genius (and there are people like that out there, but they already know that).
I took a look at your site. Interesting, and you do have some good FPS stuff on there, though the features can use a bit of clarifying. But I'm going to make this clear: I know of no MMO that has been created with T3D or the older versions of Torque that have not had to touch code. Simply put, when you create an MMO, you'll need to trim out all aspects of the T3D classes that you're not using so that they don't eat up unnecessary bandwidth. There's a dozen other code optimizations that can be made as well.
That's not to say that your scripts can't be used in an MMO, because I'm sure they can go a long way towards helping- but MMO networking is a code issue as well, which is what I'm trying to get across here. That, and that it's folly to try to make an MMO yourself unless you've got both a great idea of what you need to do and a great skillset to accomplish that with.
And for anyone interested, this is a good guide for team formation with Indie MMOs, as well as almost a hundred links to resources and threads to help.
01/16/2010 (2:10 am)
Quote:you don't even need to have a team at all. At this point in Torque history, you can just mix and match packs yourself
I have to strongly disagree. At this point in Torque history, you have a lot of tools at your disposal to make creating an MMO with T3D easier, that's true- but making an MMO is not something that can be accomplished by a single person unless they are a genius (and there are people like that out there, but they already know that).
Quote:I completed a few packs of my own over the last five years to help the MMORPG individual developer. The mmo network, scripting, sound profiles, spell casting effects, ai, overhead maps and tons of things to unlock and special features galore with gui which makes a game possible -- are all finished and "works great".
I took a look at your site. Interesting, and you do have some good FPS stuff on there, though the features can use a bit of clarifying. But I'm going to make this clear: I know of no MMO that has been created with T3D or the older versions of Torque that have not had to touch code. Simply put, when you create an MMO, you'll need to trim out all aspects of the T3D classes that you're not using so that they don't eat up unnecessary bandwidth. There's a dozen other code optimizations that can be made as well.
That's not to say that your scripts can't be used in an MMO, because I'm sure they can go a long way towards helping- but MMO networking is a code issue as well, which is what I'm trying to get across here. That, and that it's folly to try to make an MMO yourself unless you've got both a great idea of what you need to do and a great skillset to accomplish that with.
And for anyone interested, this is a good guide for team formation with Indie MMOs, as well as almost a hundred links to resources and threads to help.
#18
That said, I think the trap most new devs fall into is that they begin with the intention of making WoW. Now, personal opinions on the WoW model aside (no sir, I don't like it), that's not the only way to make an MMO.
You don't have to design for environments that support 500 simultaneous players, nor do you have to have things like seamless massive terrains. The "massive" refers not to the player count in any given area, it describes the persistant cross-server experience, as opposed to the traditional instance server of normal multiplayer games.
For the record, kill mob, rinse, repeat? This is essentially a singleplayer experience, or 5 player co-op at best. All of the most interesting experiences in WoW are extremely non-massive (instances/BGs), however they have effects that transfer to every other experience in the game.
The worst experience in WoW? Having a zone with 500 players in it, because the area is so clogged that people will be literally fighting over dead rats.
My advice to anyone showing up today and wanting to make an MMORPG? Make a great non-massive game, then decide whether a town full of 300 guys named xXtehGANKER[420]Xx will really improve that experience.
01/18/2010 (1:35 am)
Ah, well this is a classic topic on these forums isn't it? Josh proved it can be done, but then Josh makes me look like a drooling moron, and I consider myself fairly competent.That said, I think the trap most new devs fall into is that they begin with the intention of making WoW. Now, personal opinions on the WoW model aside (no sir, I don't like it), that's not the only way to make an MMO.
You don't have to design for environments that support 500 simultaneous players, nor do you have to have things like seamless massive terrains. The "massive" refers not to the player count in any given area, it describes the persistant cross-server experience, as opposed to the traditional instance server of normal multiplayer games.
For the record, kill mob, rinse, repeat? This is essentially a singleplayer experience, or 5 player co-op at best. All of the most interesting experiences in WoW are extremely non-massive (instances/BGs), however they have effects that transfer to every other experience in the game.
The worst experience in WoW? Having a zone with 500 players in it, because the area is so clogged that people will be literally fighting over dead rats.
My advice to anyone showing up today and wanting to make an MMORPG? Make a great non-massive game, then decide whether a town full of 300 guys named xXtehGANKER[420]Xx will really improve that experience.
#19
Hehe... You know, I like the MW/MW2 paradigm: Multiplayer, Massively. If they had connected their maps with an area that looked like a base/staging ground, it would be a true MMO. But no, you don't necessarily want 500 people in one area- for a lot of reasons.
If you look up Josh's past blogs, you'll see that he pulled off a player population somewhere around 40,000 with about seven physical boxes, and however many virtual servers running on those (I don't know what his network looked like when he hit that 100,000 he mentioned). Those are not bad numbers (actually, they're friggin' great numbers), though for security and stability sake, I'll caution anyone against going too much smaller...
If anyone manages to have everything on one box (doubtful if you start getting hundreds of players on at one time), then you start running into single points of failure for everything. Box goes down? All zones are down. Box gets hacked? They got root to everything. Box crashes? All zones are down. Need to do maintainence? All zones are down. Upgrade? All zones are down.
It's true that players won't leave because they need to zone (I've never heard of a player cancelling an account because they saw a loading screen), but they'll leave you in a heartbeat if you go down just as they're getting that last kill in that epic quest.
01/18/2010 (2:10 am)
Quote:The worst experience in WoW? Having a zone with 500 players in it, because the area is so clogged that people will be literally fighting over dead rats.
Hehe... You know, I like the MW/MW2 paradigm: Multiplayer, Massively. If they had connected their maps with an area that looked like a base/staging ground, it would be a true MMO. But no, you don't necessarily want 500 people in one area- for a lot of reasons.
If you look up Josh's past blogs, you'll see that he pulled off a player population somewhere around 40,000 with about seven physical boxes, and however many virtual servers running on those (I don't know what his network looked like when he hit that 100,000 he mentioned). Those are not bad numbers (actually, they're friggin' great numbers), though for security and stability sake, I'll caution anyone against going too much smaller...
If anyone manages to have everything on one box (doubtful if you start getting hundreds of players on at one time), then you start running into single points of failure for everything. Box goes down? All zones are down. Box gets hacked? They got root to everything. Box crashes? All zones are down. Need to do maintainence? All zones are down. Upgrade? All zones are down.
It's true that players won't leave because they need to zone (I've never heard of a player cancelling an account because they saw a loading screen), but they'll leave you in a heartbeat if you go down just as they're getting that last kill in that epic quest.
#20
There are other brands of MMO experience.
The term "pwn" was coined here at Garage Games on Realm Wars. About six months before WOW turned level 60, there were a number of guilds who visited our server. They were quick to copy my boss's lingo.
Anyway, Realm Wars was almost massively multiplayer. As the big G went on, other servers for their engine were popping up, but now today, they are pretty much vacant because it takes too long to load a new developer's level, with new weapons, interiors etc... plus the lack of security for your game objects and compatibility issues and hackers.
Even with those challenges, it is still possible to make a MMO demo with no developer team. Everyone just has to start using the same Base Game on a bunch of completely different servers, like each developer here owns and operates their own world. You should just have to attract "tourists", who can drag and drop their prefs in their game into your folder to make your game on a server they can operate.
Does anyone follow?
01/18/2010 (12:18 pm)
Exactly, Henry.There are other brands of MMO experience.
The term "pwn" was coined here at Garage Games on Realm Wars. About six months before WOW turned level 60, there were a number of guilds who visited our server. They were quick to copy my boss's lingo.
Anyway, Realm Wars was almost massively multiplayer. As the big G went on, other servers for their engine were popping up, but now today, they are pretty much vacant because it takes too long to load a new developer's level, with new weapons, interiors etc... plus the lack of security for your game objects and compatibility issues and hackers.
Even with those challenges, it is still possible to make a MMO demo with no developer team. Everyone just has to start using the same Base Game on a bunch of completely different servers, like each developer here owns and operates their own world. You should just have to attract "tourists", who can drag and drop their prefs in their game into your folder to make your game on a server they can operate.
Does anyone follow?
Associate Josh Engebretson
J/K
A previous company of mine ran a small indie MMO with around 100,000 user registrations at the time of my departure. We supported it with a staff of 2 people and a number of (awesome) community contributors.
This was before the age of Twitter, Facebook, MySpace, etc.. and the game was pretty hardcore. I think a less complex, fun/casual, indie MMO could do amazingly well in today's market.
... and if you design it right, something that can be supported with a minimal staff.