GG removing TGE and TGEA from the product line!?

#21 Slightly edited version of my blog comment, excuse any grammatical oddities I may have missed while revising it to suit the new context.

Well, frankly I'm just pissed off at being outright lied to, even though I suspected it was the case at the time.

I said I'd believe it when I saw it when we were being told TGEA would have a long future as an affordable hobbyist alternative to T3D, we were even offered the now laughable suggestion of a bug-fix release "after T3D was launched".

Sure, now we're being told that it'll be open-sourced "next year"? Well, based off recent evidence I think that falls firmly into the "believe it when you see it" category.

And in the mean-time, what? I'm still working with TGE. If someone joins my project they're supposed to contact GG to "work something out" about purchasing a license for a product that isn't for sale anymore and may be free this time next year? I'm going to have fun selling that one to prospective additions to my team. Talk about tossing us into limbo...



@Michael and Matthew - With all due respect, the discussion isn't about the value of T3D to the hobbyist, it's about TGEA. I appreciate what you're saying in support of T3D, but it gets pretty tiresome to have "T3D is great and ONLY $1000!" posted in response to TGEA related discussions.

That personal gripe aside, arguing the acceptable costs of a hobby is entirely subjective and really not very helpful to the discussion, aside from effectively saying "I'm alright Jack."

Rest assured, many MANY people start out their photography hobby with a sub $100** happy snap digital camera. Some people spending over $1000 on a hobby does not equate to $1000 being a hobbyist price.

** - (I've no idea if $100 is realistic for a cheap digital camera, it's just a reference point, no idea what the exchange rate is at the moment and there's the crazy unexplained markup we have on stuff compared to US prices.)

#22 Incidentally, since Josh E. and Xerves have posted, I'm also in this from the MMOKit perspective, although to be fair I've been entirely inactive over at the workshop site recently (I'm Rastus over there).

I see they're still having problems keeping the site up...

#23 Use to be Sundays, was thinking the server was religious or something :-).

#24

Quote:One big thing with any transition to open-source from commercial is that you have to have a significant portion of time between the release or customers feel jilted since they paid for tech that was released for free the next month.

could not agree more, if i were a new customer and dropped 250 big ones on a product and found out it would be free to the masses a few months later i would be seriously pissed and demanding a refund.

However GG deciding to no longer sell the engine i think is a positve step towards a possible open source solution, sure there will be some prospective customers left out in the cold but ultimately the engines could then go open source without setting individuals up to be butt hurt over spending a large sum of money on TGE/A and if someone really needed a license before such a date it has already been indicated that GG will work with the customer.

Overall though individuals with content packs out that support either TGE or TGEA will be the real winners if GG open sources the old tech as that means the guy who would be dropping 250 for tgea now has 250 to buy AFX or whatever.

I think it is important to realize that GG has only said they will not be selling the engine, they have made no other indication that the engine will disappear from existence and have publicly let it be known that they are very interested in possibly setting the engines up as open source which then becomes the ultimate Saturday night hobbyist special as it is FREE!

making comments about a company lying about this or that is just unproductive especially since there are still alot of unknown variables still out and about.

#25 @Ross:
Ah, but support for Torque 3D wasn't all that I brought up, so my words were very much suitable for this discussion. You can pick and choose your own meanings to anything found on these pages as you wish. My point was that I can understand the reasoning behind not selling TGE/TGEa anymore -- and this was also made before any possible likelihood of either of them being open-sourced was mentioned.

Again, the only people this will really affect are the "potential" new users, and it's already been indicated that certain situations will be taken into consideration, ie growing teams. All current TGE/TGEa are still assured of a discount when moving forward.

#26 Yep, as Michael says.

People's heads keep exploding unnecessarily, as GG is pretty much assuring:

• Forums continuity
• Free will for license holders (no mandatory upgrade)
• Availability of new licenses for projects in work

And! the posibility of open sourcing the legacy tech.


JEEZZ! What is the problem here?

#27 @Novack I think the problem is someone needs a hug

#28 @Michael - I'm not picking and choosing meanings about anything, merely pointing out that T3D this, T3D that is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. I'm sure we're all well aware how great T3D is, if and more likely when it suits my requirements I'll get it.

Unfortunately, T3D isn't the immediate solution for everyone for various reasons so having it shoe-horned into every discussion gets pretty tiresome. Like I said, personal minor gripe and by no means a dismissal of your entire post. Take it how you wish.

@Novack - Almost every assurance made by GG about the future of TGE and TGEA over the last few months has been thrown out the window today so what makes you think any of the new assurances will hold true in a few months time? At the moment they're simply not assurances anymore, they're more passing possibilities that'll keep people quiet until they decide what they're really going to do type thing...

I love how people who aren't effected by something have to chip in about how it's not a problem...

@Kenneth - And here come the T3D fanboi trolls... ;)

#29

Quote:I love how people who aren't effected by something love to chip in about how it's not a problem...

so how are you affected? middle ware will continue to be available, if you add anyone to your project a simple email will yield more licenses to TGE for your project, and if you want to upgrade you can apply what you paid for TGE to T3d. The only ones really affected are new customers, and as the majority of us are current customers as it has been pointed out repeatadly we are not really affected by GG's decision to pull legacy tech from the purchasable market. Heck im curious as to what even kind of sales they still get from that old technology once T3D became available in beta.

#30

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that if you purchase the TGEA license, that the price will be discounted from a future T3D purchase(I hope for our sake), and it seems like there making it a little more difficult (Direct Email) to purchase TGEA not denying licenses to those that still want it.

The problem with this is that you have to know that you can email them to get it.

I field questions about game engines all the time, and I always point people here. But now when they look at the product page they only see T3D, and they tell me they aren't looking to spend $1000 and then I explain to them about TGEA and how to find the product page for it. So even now if new potential customers come here with $300 to spend on a game engine, without somebody to guide them, they're just going to see T3D for $1,000 and (probably) leave.

It doesn't really matter to me personally since I've already moved on to T3D, but I can see GG losing out on a lot of customers that are still willing to pay for their legacy tech. Which is basically free money, since they've already built it and are not planning on updating it again. You've really gotta wonder about somebody that doesn't want free money :P

Though maybe they feel that the customers that will fork out the extra for T3D that would otherwise just buy TGEA will make up for the ones they lose.

Quote:
Some people spending over $1000 on a hobby does not equate to $1000 being a hobbyist price.

It's not just "some people". It's "a lot of people", and possibly even "most people."

Even when I was a poor starving college kid I spent more than $1000 in a year on video games, billiards and beer.

#31 @Kenneth

I'm fairly sure I already explained this, but anyhow...

Low budget project, transitional team of volunteers and dabbling hobbyists. At the moment I have to tell them what, that I can get them a license for the engine we're using at the usual price but it'll be free "next year". Bearing in mind it's as good as October... next year is what? 3 months to 2010? Psh, we'll wait... Or maybe it's literal, 12 months? Makes a difference. Possibly 15 months, that's technically still "next year"? And in all honesty no-one has said it will definitely happen... so who knows, maybe 18 months. Maybe once it gets that far it won't matter and people have stopped complaining so we'll just forget about it. At this stage, who knows?

#32 @Ross

Quote:I love how people who aren't effected by something have to chip in about how it's not a problem...

I really think that was unnecessary, you are beeing kind of trollish.

As Kenneth exposes, as GG employees stated, and as we all can read:

*There will be no changes for license holders.*

Your complaining here is "just in case" [preemtive attack? LOL] as the changes stated to the TGE/TGEA prduct line are for new customers, not for current licensees.

#33 Oh, I would also like to second Josh's motion re: MIT/BSD license. If you guys do open-source it, please don't use a restrictive GPL license. That type of license is the bane of my existence.

#34 @Novack: My apologies, it was a rather off the cuff remark. My point however is that it's remarkably easy for people who have moved to T3D to regard the retirement of TGE and TGEA as a non-issue.

#35 Valid point that other hobbies can be just as expnsive (if not more so) than T3D. Heck, I should know, after several years of Games Workshop :P! But I was trying to make the distinction between someone purchasing T3D with the intent of producing and selling a game, and someone who just wants to fiddle with it, maybe release something free, etc.

Open-sourcing sounds fantastic - I really hope something along those lines can be worked out. It would be great to have TGE/A be far more of a community codebase. I'm sure that given the core Torque tech remains somewhat similar AFAIK (at least recognisable), improvements made by the community to TGE/A could filter on up to T3D.

#36 Guys, why do you all keep saying the words 'dirt cheap'?

There is a difference between being cheap, and being inexpensive, and I am surprised GG hasn't learned that.

@Novack: No, he is right, to you this isn't a problem, but to those of us who still use these engines? It's a big problem.

Look, the thing is? TGE/A needs to continue on for 1 reason; Price.

You guys say that hobbyists would can well afford T3D? No! That is a complete fabrication. You say that many people bought Photoshop for $600 for hobbies? You used probably the worst example with that statement. A few counts show that most people seem to pirate Photoshop... And many schools, companies, or other organizations who don't pirate make up for the other 42%. Then there is GIMP, which makes up for the tons of other hobbyists who do not buy Photoshop.

What my point is that if you discontinue TGE/A, then you are discontinuing the hobbyists who want to try this, which will either lead to; 1. People pirating T3D like with Photoshop, or 2. Driving a large base of costumers away.

I support keeping TGE/A!

#37

Quote:Then there is GIMP, which makes up for the tons of other hobbyists who do not buy Photoshop.

's what I did. And Blender, and the family camera, and Qtpfsgui. There is really a ton of stuff out there to do the job of expensive programs for a much lower price.

[Note to those who think I'm flip-flopping in my opinion: I am. I have a malleable mind :P.]

#38

Quote:
And many schools, companies, or other organizations who don't pirate make up for the other 42%.

The link you posted was the result of a poll on a blog for "photography enthusiasts". So the 42% in this poll that did pay for the Photoshop that they're using are not "schools, companies or other organizations".

#39 Well, I for one sure hope that GG is serious about the open source plan, and hope that as soon as possible they nail it down with some declared dates, and keep at least TGEA for sale right up until the day it goes out for free. (As was mentioned earlier, any potential butt-hurt over people spending money on it the day before it goes free is eliminated by the simple convention of giving people a few months' _warning_.)

I've been around here ever since I bought my first TGE license for $100, and although it's been mentioned several times, I feel the need to say it again: There is a giant, enormous, fundamental difference, for a LOT of people in today's economy, between a one, two, or even three hundred dollar purchase, and a THOUSAND dollar purchase. Sure, there are lots of rich hobbyists, so it's not about the concept of "hobbyist", it's about the concept of "poor" - which unfortunately describes all too many hard working, creative people, and a large chunk of Garage Games' original customer base.

Garage Games has always been the "good guy" of the industry, standing up for the underdog developer, giving them solid tools and great licensing at a price they can afford. T3D is worth every bit of the thousand dollars, and I'll certainly be using it, but to push the people in the couple hundred dollar range off to some other engine, for any length of time, when they could be cutting their teeth on Torque instead, is a sad state of affairs. Here's hoping that Pat is right and they just don't want to make the announcement in the same blog, but I have to say I hope they nail it down with solid dates, and soon. As it stands right now, with the only solid commitment being to pull TGEA and sell nothing but T3D in the future... I have to say GG is leaking karma like a sieve. Which is sad because it's so unnecessary. Easy fix - commit to open source and give it a date, problem solved.

(EDIT - grammar)

#40

Quote:You guys say that hobbyists would can well afford T3D? No! That is a complete fabrication. You say that many people bought Photoshop for $600 for hobbies?

This is a highly falicious argument I cant speak for many but for me whom is a hobbyist I could well afford T3D and many other high end apps, and it is nothing more than something i enjoy to do. to lump that a hobbyist cant afford this engine is just plain wrong or accuse people who use photoshop as a part of a hobby as pirating it is also just wrong I own both and use both in a hobbyist spirit without the use of pirating.

Quote:
Sure, there are lots of rich hobbyists, so it's not about the concept of "hobbyist", it's about the concept of "poor" - which unfortunately describes all too many hard working, creative people, and a large chunk of Garage Games' original customer base.

being rich or poor really has nothing to do with it, if you can justify $250 you can just as easily justify a $1000 sure i would say you must be one rich hobbyist if you spent $10,0000 on a game engine or any other hobby for that matter in one big chunk, I for one managed to purchase 3d studio at its $4000 price point just to mess with it and play around, and i did it while attending school, sure I had to save for nearly a year and a half and live on Top Ramon soup and spaghetti but hey it was something I wanted, Point is if you want something bad enough prioritize it and start saving pennies, just think if you took $20 bucks each week out of your paycheck and set it aside you could purchase T3D in about a year. Save a bit more and it takes even less time. The only exception to this is the wife factor, and the poor bastards with wives know what i mean by that!