GG removing TGE and TGEA from the product line!?
by CSMP · in General Discussion · 09/29/2009 (9:04 am) · 68 replies
Quote:I don't know if many of you have read the latest T3D blog but the above statement was taken from the blog.
Biggest of all, as of November 1st, 2009, past versions of Torque (TGEA, TGE) will no longer be available for purchase.
I have my own extremely violent thoughts about that statement but I thought I should let others know aswell, I'm hoping also that possibly we can get enough "votes" to help them decide otherwise.
I can understand removing TGE from the line... but TGEA???
I havnt upgraded to TGEA because of my current project and was hoping that I could at least make money off my current project before having to spend another $150 for the upgrade, Being that I'm not able to purchase TGEA you can imagine I will not be purchasing T3D.
#3
Iterative design implies iterative depracation. I am a TGE and TGEA owner, however, I share your concerns that this approach pushes out many of the indies. I would at least like to see TGEA available for folks that own TGE after 11/1/09.
I am having problems with a related issue. If I am incorrect on this, please let me know. "There isn't an Indie license for Torque3D." Part of the appeal for supporting and purchasing GG products up to this point has been their understanding and support of the needs of Indies. In fact, they have been catering to them. A professional and studio pricing structure that excludes a lower "Indie" option and an "upgrade" option for TGE and TGEA owners really turns me off. Hopefully, the folks at GG don't think I am trying to flame them in their forum, because I am not, I would like to know the reasoning behind this (other than a premeiere marketing approach, which would be a departure from past practice).
09/29/2009 (11:48 am)
thirdIterative design implies iterative depracation. I am a TGE and TGEA owner, however, I share your concerns that this approach pushes out many of the indies. I would at least like to see TGEA available for folks that own TGE after 11/1/09.
I am having problems with a related issue. If I am incorrect on this, please let me know. "There isn't an Indie license for Torque3D." Part of the appeal for supporting and purchasing GG products up to this point has been their understanding and support of the needs of Indies. In fact, they have been catering to them. A professional and studio pricing structure that excludes a lower "Indie" option and an "upgrade" option for TGE and TGEA owners really turns me off. Hopefully, the folks at GG don't think I am trying to flame them in their forum, because I am not, I would like to know the reasoning behind this (other than a premeiere marketing approach, which would be a departure from past practice).
#4
Now, for hobbyists, I totally agree that T3D is unsuitable, and I don't like the preclusion of TGEA. It's disappointing.
Also, the amount of 'ready to buy yet?' in the T3D demo was a little disturbing. But whatever. That's not what we're talking about here :P.
09/29/2009 (12:03 pm)
Frankly, I'm not happy that TGE/A are saying goodbye, but I'd still like to clear something up. Indie doesn't mean hobbyist. It means outside the mainstream of production/publishing houses. I'd argue that T3D is still an Indie-friendly licence, if the team is serious about making and selling a game. For a 1-man team to make a game and sell it for $10, you'd need to sell 100 copies to recoup the cost of T3D. I wouldn't say that's unreasonable. (Obviously there are more costs associated with making and selling a game, but GG can't be responsible for those.)Now, for hobbyists, I totally agree that T3D is unsuitable, and I don't like the preclusion of TGEA. It's disappointing.
Also, the amount of 'ready to buy yet?' in the T3D demo was a little disturbing. But whatever. That's not what we're talking about here :P.
#5
"Twelve teams will be selected as Finalists in the contest. One Professional Grand Prize Winner and one Non-Professional Grand Prize Winner will be selected from the Finalists to each win $100,000 USD. Three of the Finalists will also be chosen for three separate $2,500 USD prizes for Technical Skill, Art Skill, and Gameplay Skill respectively."
Most hobbyists probably consider themselves Indie - except for the ones that do not have aspirations of ever creating/releasing a game, even if it is free. I guess by this (marketing material above) they include professionals and non-professionals in the Indie category - this seems odd when the pricing structure was Indie or Professional before AND is supported by the previous poster's comments.
To stay on track here, would just like to see an upgrade option from TGE to TGEA in place after 11/1/09 and an upgrade option for TGE/TGEA to T3D, also. Would assist the hobbyist/indie in making the jump.
09/29/2009 (12:16 pm)
From the Indie Game Challenge marketing material:"Twelve teams will be selected as Finalists in the contest. One Professional Grand Prize Winner and one Non-Professional Grand Prize Winner will be selected from the Finalists to each win $100,000 USD. Three of the Finalists will also be chosen for three separate $2,500 USD prizes for Technical Skill, Art Skill, and Gameplay Skill respectively."
Most hobbyists probably consider themselves Indie - except for the ones that do not have aspirations of ever creating/releasing a game, even if it is free. I guess by this (marketing material above) they include professionals and non-professionals in the Indie category - this seems odd when the pricing structure was Indie or Professional before AND is supported by the previous poster's comments.
To stay on track here, would just like to see an upgrade option from TGE to TGEA in place after 11/1/09 and an upgrade option for TGE/TGEA to T3D, also. Would assist the hobbyist/indie in making the jump.
#6
Despite the criticism over the price of entry into the world of Torque 3D you cannot find anything else of similar quality or capability at comparable or lesser cost. In my day job I get paid in beer, how "indie" is that?
I feel that the only people that the decision to no longer sell TGE/TGEa will affect are potential new users. TGE is an old and tired friend that is still more than capable of making a great game, but it just doesn't "shine" like it used to in comparison with other competing engines and toolsets. Neither does TGEa. No matter if it (TGEa) recieves minor bug fixes or not, there is still the long lived history of complaints about Torque's tools and asset integration. Those two factors alone will potentially be the biggest influence on why new users would prefer and/or be wow'ed by Torque 3D.
I can't blame GarageGames for wanting/needing to market for that potential. They've enabled a very strong community over the years and that won't go away overnight or in a few months, if ever. In fact the general conspiracy theorists of the community have been predicting a decline for years now due to misunderstood promises about TSE/TGEa and the hobbyist/indie/professional debate over Torque3D, yet the forums have remained very active for all this time.
09/29/2009 (12:37 pm)
This "hobbyist" didn't even have to sell 100 copies of a game. Sales of the Kaboom! Destroyables Content Pack alone more than justified my purchase of TGE, TGEa + AFX, and Torque 3D combined :DDespite the criticism over the price of entry into the world of Torque 3D you cannot find anything else of similar quality or capability at comparable or lesser cost. In my day job I get paid in beer, how "indie" is that?
I feel that the only people that the decision to no longer sell TGE/TGEa will affect are potential new users. TGE is an old and tired friend that is still more than capable of making a great game, but it just doesn't "shine" like it used to in comparison with other competing engines and toolsets. Neither does TGEa. No matter if it (TGEa) recieves minor bug fixes or not, there is still the long lived history of complaints about Torque's tools and asset integration. Those two factors alone will potentially be the biggest influence on why new users would prefer and/or be wow'ed by Torque 3D.
I can't blame GarageGames for wanting/needing to market for that potential. They've enabled a very strong community over the years and that won't go away overnight or in a few months, if ever. In fact the general conspiracy theorists of the community have been predicting a decline for years now due to misunderstood promises about TSE/TGEa and the hobbyist/indie/professional debate over Torque3D, yet the forums have remained very active for all this time.
#7
I've never understood how people relate hobbyist with dirt cheap. I know many hobbyists who spend at least $600 on photoshop to do image editing, or get an entire Creative Suite from Adobe at $1000+ to make their own web sites. I also know hobbyist photographers who spend near $1000 on their camera alone (often times then get Photoshop as well + more).
Since when did hobbyist mean cheap? I know hobbies that are far less "complicated" than game development that cost a whole lot more than Torque 3D. Not that I don't sympathize with wanting a lower cost option (I mean we all -always- want a lower cost option right?) but the concept that hobbies are dirt cheap isn't something I agree with.
09/29/2009 (2:13 pm)
Just posting my personal views here, not representing GG :)I've never understood how people relate hobbyist with dirt cheap. I know many hobbyists who spend at least $600 on photoshop to do image editing, or get an entire Creative Suite from Adobe at $1000+ to make their own web sites. I also know hobbyist photographers who spend near $1000 on their camera alone (often times then get Photoshop as well + more).
Since when did hobbyist mean cheap? I know hobbies that are far less "complicated" than game development that cost a whole lot more than Torque 3D. Not that I don't sympathize with wanting a lower cost option (I mean we all -always- want a lower cost option right?) but the concept that hobbies are dirt cheap isn't something I agree with.
#8
And your points are extremely valid, I just hope that they can extend the TGEA cut-off date another year so those of us that havnt upgraded yet have a chance of choosing whether to purchase TGEA or T3D.
@Matthew, I never once said Hobbies were not expensive, and your completely right, even less complicated hobbies can be more expensive then T3D.
09/29/2009 (2:16 pm)
@Michael, I can't argue with you, your my idol... :) (especially if you working for beer!!) lolAnd your points are extremely valid, I just hope that they can extend the TGEA cut-off date another year so those of us that havnt upgraded yet have a chance of choosing whether to purchase TGEA or T3D.
@Matthew, I never once said Hobbies were not expensive, and your completely right, even less complicated hobbies can be more expensive then T3D.
#9
and Deborah says that the TGE/TGEA Forums will stay open.
That pretty much clears my issues, and makes me feel much better!
Edit: TGE/TGEA Possible Open-Sourcing!
09/29/2009 (2:43 pm)
Brett Seyler mentioned that you can purchase an upgrade license by contacting GG directly... and Deborah says that the TGE/TGEA Forums will stay open.
That pretty much clears my issues, and makes me feel much better!
Edit: TGE/TGEA Possible Open-Sourcing!
#10
I'm wondering if it's really the best way to handle it. You're effectively taking TGEA out of the picture from November 1st until whenever you decide to open-source it (if you do).
During that time you may end up losing potential customers that can't afford T3D right now, but may be able to afford it in the future. If TGEA was still available for sale they could purchase that with the knowledge that they could get the price of it discounted when they have the money to upgrade to T3D. But since they won't really have that option, and they don't want to wait, they may decide to go with one of your competitors that they can buy into for a lower price initially.
I think being able to apply what they spend on TGEA towards a future upgrade to T3D would minimize the sting if they purchased it and then it was open-sourced a week later.
On the other hand, I can certainly understand the desire to distance yourselves from the old tech as quickly as possible and get everybody into the Good Stuff.
(Just babbling out loud, I'm sure you know your business better than me :P)
09/29/2009 (5:53 pm)
[moved from my last post in the aforementioned blog]I'm wondering if it's really the best way to handle it. You're effectively taking TGEA out of the picture from November 1st until whenever you decide to open-source it (if you do).
During that time you may end up losing potential customers that can't afford T3D right now, but may be able to afford it in the future. If TGEA was still available for sale they could purchase that with the knowledge that they could get the price of it discounted when they have the money to upgrade to T3D. But since they won't really have that option, and they don't want to wait, they may decide to go with one of your competitors that they can buy into for a lower price initially.
I think being able to apply what they spend on TGEA towards a future upgrade to T3D would minimize the sting if they purchased it and then it was open-sourced a week later.
On the other hand, I can certainly understand the desire to distance yourselves from the old tech as quickly as possible and get everybody into the Good Stuff.
(Just babbling out loud, I'm sure you know your business better than me :P)
#11
09/29/2009 (5:56 pm)
Feel free to babble! Your thoughts and opinions are welcome. 
#12
But that's in the OS scenario.
09/29/2009 (5:58 pm)
One big thing with any transition to open-source from commercial is that you have to have a significant portion of time between the release or customers feel jilted since they paid for tech that was released for free the next month. If I were in the market for an OS enginer and I knew for sure that TGEA was going to be released as open-source, I wouldn't want to plunk down money on it now. I'd wait and use irrlicht or Sauerbraten or some other OS technology until that point.But that's in the OS scenario.
#13
Indeed. I once spent over $5,000 and 45 hours in airplanes to go look at a wall (in China). $1,000 is in fact dirt cheap for a hobby when you take into account how many hours of usage you will get out of it compared to just about anything else you can do as a hobby.
09/29/2009 (6:01 pm)
Quote:
Since when did hobbyist mean cheap? I know hobbies that are far less "complicated" than game development that cost a whole lot more than Torque 3D.
Indeed. I once spent over $5,000 and 45 hours in airplanes to go look at a wall (in China). $1,000 is in fact dirt cheap for a hobby when you take into account how many hours of usage you will get out of it compared to just about anything else you can do as a hobby.
#14
Making it unavailable entirely during that period doesn't make any sense (to me) though. The products that I've seen go from commercial to OS just gave a notice that it was going to go open source on a particular date, but you still have the option to purchase it before then.
Obviously a lot of people will choose to wait, with the knowledge that they will in fact be able to get it at a later date for free.
Others with less patience and money burning a hole in their pockets (but not enough for T3D) are the ones that will pay the $295 to get it now, and if TGEA is not for sale now, they will go and plop down $350 on C4, or $200 on Unity Indie instead of waiting it out.
09/29/2009 (6:10 pm)
Quote:
One big thing with any transition to open-source from commercial is that you have to have a significant portion of time between the release or customers feel jilted since they paid for tech that was released for free the next month.
Making it unavailable entirely during that period doesn't make any sense (to me) though. The products that I've seen go from commercial to OS just gave a notice that it was going to go open source on a particular date, but you still have the option to purchase it before then.
Obviously a lot of people will choose to wait, with the knowledge that they will in fact be able to get it at a later date for free.
Others with less patience and money burning a hole in their pockets (but not enough for T3D) are the ones that will pay the $295 to get it now, and if TGEA is not for sale now, they will go and plop down $350 on C4, or $200 on Unity Indie instead of waiting it out.
#15
09/29/2009 (6:28 pm)
id had a few licensing bumps among their customers GPL'd engine. OF course, they were also businesses who had invested hundreds of thousands in the engines that ended up free to the masses and available for a $10,000 license to commercial licensees.
#16
I'm pretty sure that if you purchase the TGEA license, that the price will be discounted from a future T3D purchase(I hope for our sake), and it seems like there making it a little more difficult (Direct Email) to purchase TGEA not denying licenses to those that still want it.
Though you are points are valid in having a lower-end solution, I think that they are trying to get themselves as far from TGEA as possible due too the many issues it has made, and TGE... is just too damn old, lol.
09/29/2009 (6:28 pm)
@GeraldQuote:
If TGEA was still available for sale they could purchase that with the knowledge that they could get the price of it discounted when they have the money to upgrade to T3D
I'm pretty sure that if you purchase the TGEA license, that the price will be discounted from a future T3D purchase(I hope for our sake), and it seems like there making it a little more difficult (Direct Email) to purchase TGEA not denying licenses to those that still want it.
Though you are points are valid in having a lower-end solution, I think that they are trying to get themselves as far from TGEA as possible due too the many issues it has made, and TGE... is just too damn old, lol.
#17
Given enough time, *I* could write an engine like Torque 3D. However, I am a professional software engineer who makes about $50/hour for my time, and I know for a fact I couldn't write an engine in 20 hours.
Even if my time was only worth, say $7/hour working stocking shelves at Walmart, I figure in my free time this would take me years to make something even comparable to T3D. Add up the hours and it is waaaay more than $1000.
Even if it were $3000, I would think it would be worth it for someone really serious about making a sellable computer game. If I make over $250,000 per year, I will gladly send them $3000 per license for the engine.
Shoot, if I make over $250k a year, I will consider specially funding them directly for the enhancements that I want added to the engine.
But that's just me...
09/29/2009 (6:34 pm)
The way I look at it...Given enough time, *I* could write an engine like Torque 3D. However, I am a professional software engineer who makes about $50/hour for my time, and I know for a fact I couldn't write an engine in 20 hours.
Even if my time was only worth, say $7/hour working stocking shelves at Walmart, I figure in my free time this would take me years to make something even comparable to T3D. Add up the hours and it is waaaay more than $1000.
Even if it were $3000, I would think it would be worth it for someone really serious about making a sellable computer game. If I make over $250,000 per year, I will gladly send them $3000 per license for the engine.
Shoot, if I make over $250k a year, I will consider specially funding them directly for the enhancements that I want added to the engine.
But that's just me...
#18
There are thousands of people who bought into TGE technology, 3rd party developers with products (some on the verge of release!), thousands and thousands of hours of development in the form of resources (in fact, I released the entire MMO client/server/toolchain for the TGE based MMO I wrote under the BSD license).
It is really important to pick an OSI approved license. I would really like to see MIT/BSD so that derivative code can be EASILY rolled back into current generation engines/projects. Projects/resources on Google Code, Sourceforge, GitHub linking back to GarageGames are *great* advertising for current generation technology.
Mono, Bullet, Collada, etc are making tremendous waves... just a few splashes from this side of things I think would help immensely... and foster ever important good will.
09/29/2009 (6:47 pm)
I continue to be EXTREMELY interested in helping maintain an Open Source TGE. (SDL platform, rolling in the many bug fixes posted over the years, including the most useful/general purpose resources, etc)There are thousands of people who bought into TGE technology, 3rd party developers with products (some on the verge of release!), thousands and thousands of hours of development in the form of resources (in fact, I released the entire MMO client/server/toolchain for the TGE based MMO I wrote under the BSD license).
It is really important to pick an OSI approved license. I would really like to see MIT/BSD so that derivative code can be EASILY rolled back into current generation engines/projects. Projects/resources on Google Code, Sourceforge, GitHub linking back to GarageGames are *great* advertising for current generation technology.
Mono, Bullet, Collada, etc are making tremendous waves... just a few splashes from this side of things I think would help immensely... and foster ever important good will.
#19
09/29/2009 (6:50 pm)
Gee Josh, it's like you've thought about this before. ;) 
#20
09/29/2009 (6:54 pm)
I hope so, a lot of us are extending that great work you have put in Josh and would like to see it continue to grow (that is if the new owners could keep the website up that is he he). 
Torque Owner CSMP
MP Studios