Argghh...

#81 @Edward

That would be just as ineffective. All that would have to be done in that case would be to strip that code out and recompile it.

#82 yep. There is no way to DRM source code. no if ands or buts about it guys, Yes it is irritating but move on.

#83 well, didnt someone suggest putting the editor or some of the tools for the basic package into a DLL , just so the source cant be recompiled? but you would still need that DLL to actually do a compile...

Or did i miss the conversation about the Basic and Professional Pro Packages? If a pirate can uncompile the DLL, and take out the source code.. then hey. thats all you can do.. but 99% of them cant get past the "push make game button" reflex

#84

Quote:@Novack - I see your having trouble coming up with an argument for piracy... i'll let you off the hook. ;)

Hehe, no Im not. I didnt wrote any here, is not the same :P

#85

Quote:So why cant we put in a key into the editor code? and then log the key and ip of each user? and have those records.. for future use. since they would have to activate said key.. any person posting a specific key with a installer would instantly be given away. and since T3d doesnt allow for tools to be exported with the games at the current setup.. seems like a no brainer.

I don't see this working - a lot of people use anonymous and dynamic proxy's to access the Internet now and/or changes service providers. Especially the man-power to actually perform an asset management role of this magnitude including investigation would be insane.

Quote:@black You do know that a console is just a pc in another form right? even down to the standardized harddrives and cores for the GPUs. I mean look at the XBox 360.. it is just a slightly modified PC.. the only difference is the programming code and brand names paying for a specific target audience(ie exclusive titles)

You are correct in a sense - however, people spend less time, because of lack of knowledge or resources, cracking a console game than a PC game. Black had a point. And don't get me started on the 360 - it's Windows. Nuff said.

#86 @Edward

The only version any DRM would work for would be the Basic version since it, assuming this is still the case, won't have any source code. Which would be rendered moot since people would be pirating the Pro version anyway and any DRM added would easily removed. Like James said, you can't DRM source code, it's impossible.

@Brett
The forums never should have been opened to the public. I understand the reasons why it was done, but there were probably other ways to deal with that. Yeah, it sucks that T3D was pirated while in Beta, but you can't say it wasn't expected when it's known there are people who buy the engine simply to pirate it. You really can't cry foul after you remove the one thing that stood between pirates and being able to make use of the engines.

#87 I disagree.. since we know that there are ways to add DLL packages to a product that is compiled... simply contain a piece of key in the DLL thats precompiled like the sqlite, there is a DLL that doesnt get recompiled, but the sqlite wont work without it. Simply not including the DLL would render all the tools useless.. its just a matter of how much time GG is willing to actually defend there product. Most pirates dont have the skills to do what your asking and if they all are the same way.. but hey.. i paid for my license. But i have also been on of the first ones to speak up when these topics come up.

#88 I must not be tracking on what exactly you're suggesting. You seem to be suggesting to have the engine/editors reference a precompiled DLL on startup. Except, when you have the source code that's a trivial task to remove the reference even for a novice programmer.

I've stayed out of public discussions on the future of T3D in the past, and I've decided that's something I should no longer do since I've been invested in this tech and working with it for the past 6 years.

#89 yeah the Forums should be made private. The access to the private forums is one of the things that should be considered part of your purchase.

#90 mmm, as it used to be.....

#91 @Edward

I licensed T3D because I get _full_ access to the source code. If GG wants to tag the source with personal information (a lot of SDKs do that) or put authentication in the toolbox - fine. But I expect _all_ of the source code to the engine to stay open so I can install/use it whenever I like (be it with internet access or without) and on any platform (PC/Mac/Linux) of my choosing. Full source code availability is NOT something that should be up for debate IMHO.

#92 I agree on that point, it would certainly be something that can be removed after activation. Its not a hard thing, if you can download the sdk, you can surely activate the sdk on that same internet connection. And for those that want to use the slow connection 56k connection bit, I have been on 56k and working on my game for over 2 years , activating all my keys and products after downloading. Yes there are a few folks that do work offline. But these excuses are simply that. Anyone want to find a simplier solution to protecting GG intellectual rights. Or is all we can do is point and gasp at a pirate and say well there isnt anything we can do about it becuase well.. 1)we wont take a stance outside of the license 2)you cant find proof of said items, becuase of dynamic IPs and such 3)Its not worth the time becuase its not a mandate from the guys that pay the paychecks.

You know, i read the same stuff you guys do. Look how much of a industry piracy is. 100 million or something like that within a small span of time worth of piracy estimated from one source alone..just as a example..

Do we just run in circles and say we could do this, or do we make some attempts to actually do something about it. Its a huge problem around the world right now. we are way to PC, someone could be dying in front of you and no one is going to help becuase 1)you dont want to get sued or involved 2)you cant find what really was going on 3)its not worth your effort or time to make a difference. (check out the above list.. look familiar) yah.. maybe im too passionate about these things.. sigh.. Hangs up coat im taking a break...

#93 Just keep it how it is. Don't limit my software. This is going to happen NO MATTER what you do.

#94 If you want an effective protection, make the documentation online only with a downloadable reader app thats hardware locked (with say up to 3 / 5 systems per user or 2 and movable through unregister of systems) and user based.

No documentation = totally no use for Torque


There is no other DRM you can apply thats of any realistic impact. The tool is worthless for DRM, I don't even use it to create new projects or scripting ...


Source access restrictions would only ensure one thing: guaranteed money lose due to the refunds they will have to grant if GG breaks the own advertisement to its core.



A general thing on "Piracy = Lose": Its not. There is no guarantee that the pirates would have bought it, right? Also you didn't have to invest a single cent to produce the copies that they pirate, thanks to good dublications. All you did is potentially lost a potential customer and once you realize that and seek for ways to attract those pirates that would really be interested in the tech you will also stand a chance to get them to drop the pirated version in favor of the licensed. Might sound stupid, but in todays "fake like stupid" world where trials especially do one thing, pretend to be X, its no wonder people are considering pirating a valid way to trial stuff. By that measure I'm actually forced to say that GG is even helping the pirates as they have a strong tendency to advertise features on the website their technology does not offer or does not offer at the time of advertising (TGEA had that problem for a year during the whole 1.0.x phase, iTGB has it since its release and still by 1.2 and the T3D beta suffers from the problem too as wetness and the in game browser are both linked in on the feature relevant areas of the product page, yet for one we don't know if it happens at all, for other we know that it will not happen till at least T3D 1.1 ...)
Hell even Microsoft realized that, showing a windows license special offer dialog on pirated windows versions and Microsoft is really not known to be the fastest company especially not when it comes to reaction times on such stuff.

Either you adapt your thinking and way of handling the stuff to the 21st century or you won't survive. The WWW and digital goods are not shoes created by hand, not something that physically transfers and any phyiscal good bound thinking won't get you anywhere but in trouble and anger.
The music industry has learned that lesson already and movie, game and technology providers will learn it as well or corresponding business will be gone.

#95 Time is better spent working that are not going to solve the problem. But in all likely hood will complicate my own life.

Let say I produce a product That suffers a 50% loss of sales due to piracy. I still have 50% more than I did not getting anything done worrying about how to out wit literally millions of hackers. Spending my time on a effort that is futile. In the end the if I do manage to come up with some solution. IT WILL GET CRACKED. And in most cases on top of the sales I lost to piracy now I have also lost sale of legitimate customers that just thought that it was just too much grief to use my product because of all of the counter-measures.

Just stop guys. GG if you find someone that you can legally prosecute the person that posted it, then go for it. But quite frankly this thread was just started to let whoever it is know that GG knows that someone in here is doing it.

Please guys, put down the pitchforks. I'm pretty sure we all have better things to spend out energy on.

#96 some one get these things off:

fileshunt.com/rapidshare.php?file=torque+game+engine

God, so disgusting.

#97 I think this has more or less been discussed to death. I hadn't intended to start a discussion about the ethics of piracy or DRM. I'm open to looking practical solutions which make piracy more difficult while adding value to the end user, but it has to meet that former requirement. Addressing this is certainly not high on our list, but if we continue to see leaks, we'll probably start heading in that direction. Again, the point I want to emphasize is that we (GG) will no implement any solution that's just overhead or an annoyance to the end user. Any solution we choose will feel like (and legitimately be) an improvement to the product.

Thanks all for weighing in and for the support.