Argghh...
by Brett Seyler · in Torque 3D Professional · 08/22/2009 (10:38 pm) · 97 replies
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LECDR6FM
Can we please not do this? It would be really nice to keep Torque DRM free. Obviously I know that 99.9% of you are being totally cool about your license, but assuming the 0.1% are on this thread too, please stop. K, thx.
-Brett
Can we please not do this? It would be really nice to keep Torque DRM free. Obviously I know that 99.9% of you are being totally cool about your license, but assuming the 0.1% are on this thread too, please stop. K, thx.
-Brett
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#62
If you don't it will also make it hard to prosecute as you will have to prove in court that a pirate didn't do something similar to what I've said above.
08/25/2009 (5:55 am)
Tom, if you go the route of embedding details in files please ensure you embed something, an ID or whatever, that isn't easily harvested by browsing other users' details on GG. Find and Remove is trivial, but so is Find and Replace <PirateDetails> with <BrettSeylersDetails>, for example. I wouldn't put it past some kid with a malevolent sense of humour to do something like that, to choose a scapegoat, someone they have argued with on the forums or a GG employee.If you don't it will also make it hard to prosecute as you will have to prove in court that a pirate didn't do something similar to what I've said above.
#63
My experience is that
A) you cannot resolve such cases on a transnational basis, unless the violators live in a country that currently has a strong position on copyright violations. Sometimes russia comes down like a ton of bricks on their nationals, big your-ass-is-going-to-gulag-style, others they couldn't care less. During my time as CTO of an IT-security company, I've spent some time on this pursuit.
B) in practice, you must protest and actively work against your work being pirated, or you risk the copyright in the legal sense - since you must use reasonable resources on this, if you use nil resources, then the copyright is worth nil, and will not be considered active in a legal sense, which is an open invite to any company to rip the product, and use it for their own. Since US based copyrights must be registered at the US Copyright Office to exact punitive damage & laywers fees, that won't even be in effect.
C) Simple "cease and desist" letters from a laywer can be a reasonable venue. Have a layer draw templates, and mail them out yourselves. I'd go with a laywer knowing global copyright, but I don't know the pricing in your region.
D) approach piracy sites and ask to have the DL removed - maybe even replace with a link. Offer a conversion with amnesty at the going rate of T3D.
E) I'd be happy to discuss further, however the pirates obviously have access to this board.
08/25/2009 (5:55 am)
Before thinking that Tom & others response is over the top, do please consider the global ramifications - 164 of almost ~195 nations recognize copyright.My experience is that
A) you cannot resolve such cases on a transnational basis, unless the violators live in a country that currently has a strong position on copyright violations. Sometimes russia comes down like a ton of bricks on their nationals, big your-ass-is-going-to-gulag-style, others they couldn't care less. During my time as CTO of an IT-security company, I've spent some time on this pursuit.
B) in practice, you must protest and actively work against your work being pirated, or you risk the copyright in the legal sense - since you must use reasonable resources on this, if you use nil resources, then the copyright is worth nil, and will not be considered active in a legal sense, which is an open invite to any company to rip the product, and use it for their own. Since US based copyrights must be registered at the US Copyright Office to exact punitive damage & laywers fees, that won't even be in effect.
C) Simple "cease and desist" letters from a laywer can be a reasonable venue. Have a layer draw templates, and mail them out yourselves. I'd go with a laywer knowing global copyright, but I don't know the pricing in your region.
D) approach piracy sites and ask to have the DL removed - maybe even replace with a link. Offer a conversion with amnesty at the going rate of T3D.
E) I'd be happy to discuss further, however the pirates obviously have access to this board.
#64
Someone paying attention might have recognized the username deepscratch mentioned finding elsewhere -- it was a name used here a while back, but has since changed. Check it out deespscratch: you'll find that the individual in question has removed his links -- all 8 of them!
... and the one that Brett found has been removed too.
So you see, protesting and/or speaking out did at least do some good. No it won't solve the overall problem, and something similar will eventually crop back up again, but at least someone spoke up and said that hey this isn't cool!
08/25/2009 (6:28 am)
I've always felt that blindly turning away and just assuming that noone is being harmed, or using the argument "oh, but there's not much you can do" is only condoning the problem.Someone paying attention might have recognized the username deepscratch mentioned finding elsewhere -- it was a name used here a while back, but has since changed. Check it out deespscratch: you'll find that the individual in question has removed his links -- all 8 of them!
... and the one that Brett found has been removed too.
So you see, protesting and/or speaking out did at least do some good. No it won't solve the overall problem, and something similar will eventually crop back up again, but at least someone spoke up and said that hey this isn't cool!
#65
I spent some time thinking of a way to do it in an effective way, if someone from management is interested/curious, you have my email, contact me and I'll give you a demonstration, and let you try find the embedded ID.
08/25/2009 (9:54 am)
I have an idea for embedding a unique ID into the source code that would be VERY difficult to find, but I'd rather not expand on it here.I spent some time thinking of a way to do it in an effective way, if someone from management is interested/curious, you have my email, contact me and I'll give you a demonstration, and let you try find the embedded ID.
#66
@Deepscratch - It can be found. Compare two copies of the software... look for the differences.
@Novack - IMO everything you just said is crazy... but please... i'd love to hear why i'm wrong and people deserve my work for free.
08/26/2009 (12:53 am)
@Gareth - It was just a random idea... not an official thing... it won't be worth the effort for several reasons already mentioned.@Deepscratch - It can be found. Compare two copies of the software... look for the differences.
@Novack - IMO everything you just said is crazy... but please... i'd love to hear why i'm wrong and people deserve my work for free.
#67
Why people deserve your work for free?
The copyright debate is much more deep and complex than any thrown infantile sentence, as you can check for yourself by using Google.
This situation pretty much shows my reason to not going further, and why this topic should not be engaged outside of a more serious context.
08/26/2009 (1:27 am)
Tom, that was not really elaborated, even for a sarcasm.Why people deserve your work for free?
The copyright debate is much more deep and complex than any thrown infantile sentence, as you can check for yourself by using Google.
This situation pretty much shows my reason to not going further, and why this topic should not be engaged outside of a more serious context.
#68
This is simply a harsh reality that has been coming for GG to face. The engine used to have the best DRM, the combination of private forums and less than stellar documentation. You didn't have to worry about people pirating the engine before because 99.9% of the time they didn't know what they where looking at or how to use it and they couldn't access the information to learn how to use it. That's not the case now, and honestly, there's no DRM solution that could be added to the engine that wouldn't be a pain in the ass for users and not be a waste of time.
08/26/2009 (10:21 am)
Gareth and Henry already said pretty much everything I was going to.This is simply a harsh reality that has been coming for GG to face. The engine used to have the best DRM, the combination of private forums and less than stellar documentation. You didn't have to worry about people pirating the engine before because 99.9% of the time they didn't know what they where looking at or how to use it and they couldn't access the information to learn how to use it. That's not the case now, and honestly, there's no DRM solution that could be added to the engine that wouldn't be a pain in the ass for users and not be a waste of time.
#69
08/26/2009 (11:15 am)
If someone uses the engine to publish a game, how hard would it be to figure out? 
#70
So as sad as I am to see this, I deal with a large number of clients that experience it every day. It's sad that I am not upset by this, but I guess it's like being an EMT and seeing injured people constantly, eventually it doesn't bother you as much.
Brent has the right idea. In our line of work we like to look at it from the perspective of "Promoting a Purchase". This is the number one way to combat casual piracy. If you can detect that a copy of not legitimate you do not want to cause harm to, or detract the user from using the software. In fact you are one step closer to a legitimate user, you want to direct them toward purchasing a license.
There are many interesting ways to lock executable files, less interesting ways to lock content, and little to no way to lock content such as source code.
Hardware fingerprinting is common, but could hurt a license that is tied to an individual and not a computer.
User authentication seems to be the direction of most software these days and seems to apply to the way Torque is licensed.
User authentication provides you with tracking information as well as a personal connection. Serial numbers are a non-personal form of identification and often times will be shared without much concern. User auth adds a personal layer, you are now identifying as yourself and people are less likely to share their email address and password with others.
Ultimately this will happen and it is unavoidable. Fighting casual piracy requires adding value while providing an ability to promote a purchase of the product.
As is the documentation and forums should remain behind the user authentication. This provides a lot of benefit to having a legitimate license. Without the documentation it would be very difficult to use unlicensed software. It would also be a pain to scrape and republish.
A limited documentation could be made available for demo licensees.
08/26/2009 (1:29 pm)
I believe I may be a bit numb to this, as I work on DRM technology as my day job.So as sad as I am to see this, I deal with a large number of clients that experience it every day. It's sad that I am not upset by this, but I guess it's like being an EMT and seeing injured people constantly, eventually it doesn't bother you as much.
Brent has the right idea. In our line of work we like to look at it from the perspective of "Promoting a Purchase". This is the number one way to combat casual piracy. If you can detect that a copy of not legitimate you do not want to cause harm to, or detract the user from using the software. In fact you are one step closer to a legitimate user, you want to direct them toward purchasing a license.
There are many interesting ways to lock executable files, less interesting ways to lock content, and little to no way to lock content such as source code.
Hardware fingerprinting is common, but could hurt a license that is tied to an individual and not a computer.
User authentication seems to be the direction of most software these days and seems to apply to the way Torque is licensed.
User authentication provides you with tracking information as well as a personal connection. Serial numbers are a non-personal form of identification and often times will be shared without much concern. User auth adds a personal layer, you are now identifying as yourself and people are less likely to share their email address and password with others.
Ultimately this will happen and it is unavoidable. Fighting casual piracy requires adding value while providing an ability to promote a purchase of the product.
As is the documentation and forums should remain behind the user authentication. This provides a lot of benefit to having a legitimate license. Without the documentation it would be very difficult to use unlicensed software. It would also be a pain to scrape and republish.
A limited documentation could be made available for demo licensees.
#71
How many folks does it take to make piracy a issue? 1, 2? 1000? GG has already stated they are looking into it and basically looking at the numbers dont care. Bottom Line. Proof of this.. They opened the forums.. they have repeatedly stated that the solutions would be outside their timeframe(the would you rather DRM or us to program argument).
08/26/2009 (1:48 pm)
I think there has been a few posts where we have been talking about this and fighting all these stupid things.. and GG stance seems to be to go a certain direction, even though their is a lot of push for keeping alot of restraint.. personally, opening the TGEA and resource forums for the public.. thats just swinging the door wide open since basically its the same code... licensed or not.. its given pirates a additional avenue to use code that folks have donated to the paying community, not to mention the work actually being put into the current build.. How many folks does it take to make piracy a issue? 1, 2? 1000? GG has already stated they are looking into it and basically looking at the numbers dont care. Bottom Line. Proof of this.. They opened the forums.. they have repeatedly stated that the solutions would be outside their timeframe(the would you rather DRM or us to program argument).
#72
That would accomplish absolutely nothing. At least it has absolutely nothing to do with piracy. I think you best bet is just accept that there is going to be a certain amount of this and move on.
personally I think the forums should remain locked down so that un authorized people cannot find out how to use what they have stolen. Second similar to the way that the Studio Licenses are managed. a persons that has a team and a artist or something that doesn't have a seat and needs information or forum access. Then the team manager should be able to put that users ID under their team member list and then they can access the forums without having to buy the product.
But you cannot un any circumstances look at people that pirate this kinda stuff as loss sales. These people would not buy it if it was $250.
For the most part they are people that just want to check it out and play around. It is not like they are going to take a pirated version and then make the next crysis and you are gonna be cut out of you share.
However letting these things get into the hands of people so that they can learn them does increase the talent pool for your product. There are MANY MANY artist that have used Pirated software to learn thing like Maya 3ds max and photoshop. And have then gone on to careers using licensed version of these softwares.
Not advocating Piracy by any means Just saying that sometimes companies do actually benefit from it. But being the software that the largest number of people know you increase you market share. I read an article on this a long time ago that actually laid out why piracy had actually helped Microsoft come to the position of dominance that it has today. It was written back when XP was just coming out.
so instead of looking at it as lost sales." which in my opinion you can't realistically" look at it as there are going to be a couple more people in the world with experience using torque.
Anyway thats how I feel about it otherwise you will just make yourself crazy over it and end up doing drastic things that only irritate you loyal customers.
That being said I still say the D-Bag that posted it should be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.
Again, you want to make sure they cannot use what they have stolen? Close the Forums and implement the method I have stated above for allowing non-seated users into the private area. I m Opinion the opening the Private forums was a HUGE mistake and only encouraged the piracy
08/26/2009 (2:15 pm)
Quote:Brett Syler Said:...
What do you guys think about the idea of logging into the tool w/ your GG ID? I wouldn't want to use it as a requirement to use the tool (since lots of people work offline) but as something that would hopefully add value to the experience. For example, you could log into the tool for automatic crash reporting tied to your profile / hardware spec / etc. I'm open to other ideas. Definitely don't want to go overboard and create DRM that has a net negative effect on legit users. Anything like authenticated use should provide *more* value to legit users, not less.
Thoughts?
That would accomplish absolutely nothing. At least it has absolutely nothing to do with piracy. I think you best bet is just accept that there is going to be a certain amount of this and move on.
personally I think the forums should remain locked down so that un authorized people cannot find out how to use what they have stolen. Second similar to the way that the Studio Licenses are managed. a persons that has a team and a artist or something that doesn't have a seat and needs information or forum access. Then the team manager should be able to put that users ID under their team member list and then they can access the forums without having to buy the product.
But you cannot un any circumstances look at people that pirate this kinda stuff as loss sales. These people would not buy it if it was $250.
For the most part they are people that just want to check it out and play around. It is not like they are going to take a pirated version and then make the next crysis and you are gonna be cut out of you share.
However letting these things get into the hands of people so that they can learn them does increase the talent pool for your product. There are MANY MANY artist that have used Pirated software to learn thing like Maya 3ds max and photoshop. And have then gone on to careers using licensed version of these softwares.
Not advocating Piracy by any means Just saying that sometimes companies do actually benefit from it. But being the software that the largest number of people know you increase you market share. I read an article on this a long time ago that actually laid out why piracy had actually helped Microsoft come to the position of dominance that it has today. It was written back when XP was just coming out.
so instead of looking at it as lost sales." which in my opinion you can't realistically" look at it as there are going to be a couple more people in the world with experience using torque.
Anyway thats how I feel about it otherwise you will just make yourself crazy over it and end up doing drastic things that only irritate you loyal customers.
That being said I still say the D-Bag that posted it should be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.
Again, you want to make sure they cannot use what they have stolen? Close the Forums and implement the method I have stated above for allowing non-seated users into the private area. I m Opinion the opening the Private forums was a HUGE mistake and only encouraged the piracy
#73
Exactly the wrong mindset. all you are going to do is make yourself crazy man. I have the most respect for you and the guys at Sickhead. But this is insane! Do you really think that even in an ideal world where it was impossible to pirate T3D that these people are going to pay for it? Of course they are not. Get real you guy have to stop looking at this like everyone that gets a pirated copy instead of buying one is a loss sale. That is simply not reality man. If someone really wants to legitimately use T3D they are not going to go get a pirated copy rather than paying for it. Get real man.
Not to mention like 99% of these people are just compulsive pirates. I knew a guy "passed on god rest his sole" that used to sit on the internet and download all kinds stuff. And you know what. All he used was damn open source software. He was downloading 100's of GB of data all of the time and just hoarding it. The only thing he ever used was chat firefox and a mp3 player. Every time I saw him I was like wassup? and he would rattle off all of this software that he had just gotten. and I would ask him what are you going to use that for? and every time his response was... "I don't know, I just thought it would be cool to have." The only thing that guy ever pirated that could have been viewed as something that he would have otherwise would have bought would have been the mp3s.
For the most part their just internet addicts that have a compulsive need to collect stuff that is viewed to have value. Even when it personally has no value to them.
08/26/2009 (2:43 pm)
Quote:Tom Said.....
Money that we loose from people stealing products is money i cannot pay my employees to support their family.
This isn't some faceless behemoth filled with layers of do-nothing executives.... this is a small 4 man studio. Every dollar matters here.
They might as well have come to my house and stolen my food.
There is no excuse for pirating software... none... not a trial... not testing... not learning... no excuse at all.
If you want to use the software... pay for it.
Exactly the wrong mindset. all you are going to do is make yourself crazy man. I have the most respect for you and the guys at Sickhead. But this is insane! Do you really think that even in an ideal world where it was impossible to pirate T3D that these people are going to pay for it? Of course they are not. Get real you guy have to stop looking at this like everyone that gets a pirated copy instead of buying one is a loss sale. That is simply not reality man. If someone really wants to legitimately use T3D they are not going to go get a pirated copy rather than paying for it. Get real man.
Not to mention like 99% of these people are just compulsive pirates. I knew a guy "passed on god rest his sole" that used to sit on the internet and download all kinds stuff. And you know what. All he used was damn open source software. He was downloading 100's of GB of data all of the time and just hoarding it. The only thing he ever used was chat firefox and a mp3 player. Every time I saw him I was like wassup? and he would rattle off all of this software that he had just gotten. and I would ask him what are you going to use that for? and every time his response was... "I don't know, I just thought it would be cool to have." The only thing that guy ever pirated that could have been viewed as something that he would have otherwise would have bought would have been the mp3s.
For the most part their just internet addicts that have a compulsive need to collect stuff that is viewed to have value. Even when it personally has no value to them.
#74
@James - I know... it does make me crazy. Thats why i spend 5 minutes on this thread and the other 23 hours and 55 minutes of my day doing something productive.
And i'm sure the vast majority of people would never pay for T3D... even if it was a dollar... but for the ones that would have i count that as money stolen from the mouths of T3D developers.
Even if its 1 copy its wrong.
08/26/2009 (2:51 pm)
@Novack - I see your having trouble coming up with an argument for piracy... i'll let you off the hook. ;)@James - I know... it does make me crazy. Thats why i spend 5 minutes on this thread and the other 23 hours and 55 minutes of my day doing something productive.
And i'm sure the vast majority of people would never pay for T3D... even if it was a dollar... but for the ones that would have i count that as money stolen from the mouths of T3D developers.
Even if its 1 copy its wrong.
#75
Not to derail the thread too much, but I can think one fairly legitimate use (in my opinion) of piracy/cracking/etc. That would be legit users using it to get around restrictive DRM. The problem though is it really ends up becoming a chicken and egg scenario.
There's only a single instance I can think of where I had to do this, and that involved Maya and Full Sail. For our tools class we were given full copies of Maya but the licensing between FS and Alias required that license file exist on FS's network, so in order to be able to work on our assignments at home we were forced to find a crack for it.
08/26/2009 (3:24 pm)
@TomNot to derail the thread too much, but I can think one fairly legitimate use (in my opinion) of piracy/cracking/etc. That would be legit users using it to get around restrictive DRM. The problem though is it really ends up becoming a chicken and egg scenario.
There's only a single instance I can think of where I had to do this, and that involved Maya and Full Sail. For our tools class we were given full copies of Maya but the licensing between FS and Alias required that license file exist on FS's network, so in order to be able to work on our assignments at home we were forced to find a crack for it.
#76
This is unavoidable. I'm surprised that any of you are surprised that this is happening. It sucks, but that is the nature of things now. Why do you think more and more game publishers are moving away from the PC?
08/26/2009 (4:01 pm)
No DRM!This is unavoidable. I'm surprised that any of you are surprised that this is happening. It sucks, but that is the nature of things now. Why do you think more and more game publishers are moving away from the PC?
#77
08/26/2009 (4:07 pm)
yeah if you DRM the torque toolbox. "the only part I think that you could DRM" people will just stop using it. I mean it is not required for T3D. To be honest it has gotten better but the for the most part it has irritated me more than it has helped me.
#78
@black You do know that a console is just a pc in another form right? even down to the standardized harddrives and cores for the GPUs. I mean look at the XBox 360.. it is just a slightly modified PC.. the only difference is the programming code and brand names paying for a specific target audience(ie exclusive titles)
08/26/2009 (4:16 pm)
So why cant we put in a key into the editor code? and then log the key and ip of each user? and have those records.. for future use. since they would have to activate said key.. any person posting a specific key with a installer would instantly be given away. and since T3d doesnt allow for tools to be exported with the games at the current setup.. seems like a no brainer.@black You do know that a console is just a pc in another form right? even down to the standardized harddrives and cores for the GPUs. I mean look at the XBox 360.. it is just a slightly modified PC.. the only difference is the programming code and brand names paying for a specific target audience(ie exclusive titles)
#79
I make about $40/hr between reading and commenting I have spent at least 1hr total on GG with this today. "At least". If you guys make anywhere in that range go on add it up!
08/26/2009 (4:22 pm)
Pirates dont cost you money throgh pirating the software. they are costing you guys money in the lost productivity spent discussing this. I make about $40/hr between reading and commenting I have spent at least 1hr total on GG with this today. "At least". If you guys make anywhere in that range go on add it up!
#80
www.fantascihiddenwar.com
08/26/2009 (4:26 pm)
Good think i dont pay myself...im a house dad..with my primiary projectwww.fantascihiddenwar.com
Torque 3D Owner Novack
CyberianSoftware
There are so much factors to consider, so much neglected there, that what you just wrote sounds almost like a whim. Im not saying that your statetements are not valid points, Im saying that there are also other points as well, that you can't arbitrarily discard: thats the real difference between corporative and independent thinking.
However Im not going to go further on this, as was not my intention to fire up a discussion on copyright infringement, but to understand why so much heat on a practice that with -at least- this specific software, is rather innocuous.
I think I understand, the heat is just a logical consequence, from the different angles of view over the issue.