Mona Lisa In Crayon, Next Gen and what it really means
by Ron Kapaun · 06/23/2014 (2:32 pm) · 6 comments
Hey all,
Well, as many of you know I stepped away for a bit. The purpose behind this was to gather what I believe to be a better a better perspective on what is actually happening in our industry. (Oh yeah, I was also pushing HumVees out of Airplanes and living in the foot hills of Wyoming for a bit (Gotta love the National Guard)!) I must admit, I was more than a bit shocked by the news and information that I picked up when I returned!
NEXT GEN and WTF GAMERS WERE EXPECTING
The VERY first thing I want to comment on is what the gamer community was expecting when it comes to 'next gen' content and games. Of note, I would recommend reading or viewing nearly anything concerning WatchDogs or for that matter nearly ANY title that was pushed as 'next gen'. Now, I CLEARLY separate gamers from creators so I kind of expected what I witnessed. What I was NOT expecting was the huge back blast from gamers concerning the actual games! I was a bit shocked to say the least.
Let us not forget, the last gen began in the mid-2000s and if you look at games (from a visual standpoint) that were released as 'next gen'. You will note VERY little change from one gen to the next. So, why do gamers expect something different this time. From my point of view, advertising and social media are to blame.
I can honestly state, I MORE than determined that the graphics we saw in the early trailers for WatchDogs would be 'greater' than what was released. Why? Hell, check out all the beta versions of FarCry3 and compare it to the actual 'shipped' product.... Or heck, nearly ANYTHING that was shipped in the last 2 years. Consoles and the limits they impose greatly affect the visuals in any modern game. Now, sexy sells, this we know, sexy graphics equals massive pre-orders and (with luck) massive post release sales. So, now we have this 'next gen' of consoles out there. Everyone expects the graphics to 'step up' and the game play to get tighter, smoother, and more responsive but, really if you think about it, what has changed? Not much really. You can look up the tech specs on-line and see that the specs are REALLY not that 'different' from the last gen to this one. (Recommend looking at Xbox 1 and last gen Xbox 360 to really see what I am talking about).
This leads me to the KEY part of this little blog. Skill, Experience, and Technical Trickery! What do I mean? Well, Go ahead, Do a 'graphic/image' search for XBox 360 in 2007/2008 and compare it with the 'last' titles released for that format. You will note some AMAZING improvements. The key being, these improvements took time and effort to make happen. It literally took YEARS to squeeze out the render quality that they did from that system. In the end, the limits of the systems DROVE development! It is an AMAZING achievement really. What does this mean now? Well, Really, if you thin about it..... We have a hella bunch of artists and programers that have been bound by the tech they work with and these same guys are STILL working on the new titles. They are going to fall back on what they know. In time, they will locate, find, and isolate new techniques to make the visuals even better but, right now, cut em some slack.
SO, HOW DOES THIS RELATE TO T3D/T2D?
This seems complicated but it's not. I could go over all of the things that T3D is 'missing' or 'needs' but, in reality.... It's about knowing the tools you have well enough to try and use them in different ways. I am really honored to say that I have seen some of you developers really 'maxing' out what T3D can do and making some amazing things with it. However, let us take a second and think about some of these new 'high end' features that we (THINK) we need;
Tessellation: Can you do this in DX9 (LOL, yep thing is it's not as 'easy' as say DX 10 or 11.)
Skin Shaders: Yep, in fact there has been some GREAT work with this here:www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/137604
Hair Shaders: Yep, I have been doing some work on that in fact.
Reflections: Been there since the begining, You can use 'cube maps' or even real-time (but, real time is expensive)
My point.... well, I guess my point is this. We CAN still compete even with these 'new' engines. Are there issues with doing so, sure. In the end, sexy sells. Graphics sell. I think even Steve Acaster can attribute to that. His recent efforts to push his project to 'realisim' have paid off quite well. He got greenlighted on Steam! ( I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT HIS CONSTANT EFFORT, SKILL and ATTENTION TO DETAIL IS WHAT PAID OFF FOR HIM, NOT THE FEATURES OR ANYTHING ELSE. HIS WILLINGNESS TO ADAPT AND CHANGE AND LISTEN TO HIS POTENTIAL AUDIENCE is what made his efforts a success. GREAT JOB STEVE we are all VERY proud of your accomplishments!)
In the end, I LOVE what I am seeing from this community. I know I have not 'been on the front line' like I was but, I am still here, I still pay attention and I am proud of everyone here. Good job all and keep the dream alive. I like what I read, I like what I see, I am a tad disappointed at the LACK of public sharing (I was GONE for 2 weeks and I did not have to refresh my 'latest' blogs tab to see all the new stuff.) However, this is NOT a 'bad' thing. I like to think it's because people are DEVELOPING games and this takes MUCH longer than 2 weeks.
That is all for now, I will have some more 'interesting' posts soon. (yeah, I have been working in secret... and NO I am not telling/showing.... yet)
Ron
Well, as many of you know I stepped away for a bit. The purpose behind this was to gather what I believe to be a better a better perspective on what is actually happening in our industry. (Oh yeah, I was also pushing HumVees out of Airplanes and living in the foot hills of Wyoming for a bit (Gotta love the National Guard)!) I must admit, I was more than a bit shocked by the news and information that I picked up when I returned!
NEXT GEN and WTF GAMERS WERE EXPECTING
The VERY first thing I want to comment on is what the gamer community was expecting when it comes to 'next gen' content and games. Of note, I would recommend reading or viewing nearly anything concerning WatchDogs or for that matter nearly ANY title that was pushed as 'next gen'. Now, I CLEARLY separate gamers from creators so I kind of expected what I witnessed. What I was NOT expecting was the huge back blast from gamers concerning the actual games! I was a bit shocked to say the least.
Let us not forget, the last gen began in the mid-2000s and if you look at games (from a visual standpoint) that were released as 'next gen'. You will note VERY little change from one gen to the next. So, why do gamers expect something different this time. From my point of view, advertising and social media are to blame.
I can honestly state, I MORE than determined that the graphics we saw in the early trailers for WatchDogs would be 'greater' than what was released. Why? Hell, check out all the beta versions of FarCry3 and compare it to the actual 'shipped' product.... Or heck, nearly ANYTHING that was shipped in the last 2 years. Consoles and the limits they impose greatly affect the visuals in any modern game. Now, sexy sells, this we know, sexy graphics equals massive pre-orders and (with luck) massive post release sales. So, now we have this 'next gen' of consoles out there. Everyone expects the graphics to 'step up' and the game play to get tighter, smoother, and more responsive but, really if you think about it, what has changed? Not much really. You can look up the tech specs on-line and see that the specs are REALLY not that 'different' from the last gen to this one. (Recommend looking at Xbox 1 and last gen Xbox 360 to really see what I am talking about).
This leads me to the KEY part of this little blog. Skill, Experience, and Technical Trickery! What do I mean? Well, Go ahead, Do a 'graphic/image' search for XBox 360 in 2007/2008 and compare it with the 'last' titles released for that format. You will note some AMAZING improvements. The key being, these improvements took time and effort to make happen. It literally took YEARS to squeeze out the render quality that they did from that system. In the end, the limits of the systems DROVE development! It is an AMAZING achievement really. What does this mean now? Well, Really, if you thin about it..... We have a hella bunch of artists and programers that have been bound by the tech they work with and these same guys are STILL working on the new titles. They are going to fall back on what they know. In time, they will locate, find, and isolate new techniques to make the visuals even better but, right now, cut em some slack.
SO, HOW DOES THIS RELATE TO T3D/T2D?
This seems complicated but it's not. I could go over all of the things that T3D is 'missing' or 'needs' but, in reality.... It's about knowing the tools you have well enough to try and use them in different ways. I am really honored to say that I have seen some of you developers really 'maxing' out what T3D can do and making some amazing things with it. However, let us take a second and think about some of these new 'high end' features that we (THINK) we need;
Tessellation: Can you do this in DX9 (LOL, yep thing is it's not as 'easy' as say DX 10 or 11.)
Skin Shaders: Yep, in fact there has been some GREAT work with this here:www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/137604
Hair Shaders: Yep, I have been doing some work on that in fact.
Reflections: Been there since the begining, You can use 'cube maps' or even real-time (but, real time is expensive)
My point.... well, I guess my point is this. We CAN still compete even with these 'new' engines. Are there issues with doing so, sure. In the end, sexy sells. Graphics sell. I think even Steve Acaster can attribute to that. His recent efforts to push his project to 'realisim' have paid off quite well. He got greenlighted on Steam! ( I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT HIS CONSTANT EFFORT, SKILL and ATTENTION TO DETAIL IS WHAT PAID OFF FOR HIM, NOT THE FEATURES OR ANYTHING ELSE. HIS WILLINGNESS TO ADAPT AND CHANGE AND LISTEN TO HIS POTENTIAL AUDIENCE is what made his efforts a success. GREAT JOB STEVE we are all VERY proud of your accomplishments!)
In the end, I LOVE what I am seeing from this community. I know I have not 'been on the front line' like I was but, I am still here, I still pay attention and I am proud of everyone here. Good job all and keep the dream alive. I like what I read, I like what I see, I am a tad disappointed at the LACK of public sharing (I was GONE for 2 weeks and I did not have to refresh my 'latest' blogs tab to see all the new stuff.) However, this is NOT a 'bad' thing. I like to think it's because people are DEVELOPING games and this takes MUCH longer than 2 weeks.
That is all for now, I will have some more 'interesting' posts soon. (yeah, I have been working in secret... and NO I am not telling/showing.... yet)
Ron
About the author
Guy that has been with Torque Game Engines since... well, since here was a Torque Game Engine. (V12 and beyond).
#3
Whatever my next project will be (currently choice of 3) I will probably go for "shiny" visualwise. I was hoping to have actually made a couple of basic prototypes around now but it's I've been all hands to updates and Steam right now. When I get past all of this I reckon I'll post a blog on my thoughts for future projects.
06/24/2014 (6:16 am)
Cheers, Ron! :)Whatever my next project will be (currently choice of 3) I will probably go for "shiny" visualwise. I was hoping to have actually made a couple of basic prototypes around now but it's I've been all hands to updates and Steam right now. When I get past all of this I reckon I'll post a blog on my thoughts for future projects.
#4
People forget that many early games were "impossible" to even make - until a developer either a) didn't know it wasn't supposed to work "that way" or b) found a work-around for a thing that just wouldn't work.
06/24/2014 (7:35 am)
Stop it. We need DX39 NOW, or this engine will fail!People forget that many early games were "impossible" to even make - until a developer either a) didn't know it wasn't supposed to work "that way" or b) found a work-around for a thing that just wouldn't work.
#5
So I guess the term 'next gen' has a negative connotation to me as a player. I am definitely not interested in the super awesome graphics with boiler plate gameplay and linear stories.
Point in case:
I bought Crysis to play the mech mods with a friend of mine. I have never actually played the game itself for very long. After playing part of a normal level I quickly lost interest.
I guess it depends upon if you want to make a game for the masses, or a game you enjoy playing.
06/25/2014 (11:58 am)
I don't even know what 'next gen' really means. I know I am in the minority as a player, but I really hate games that are all graphics and no gameplay, or they are boiler plate FPS with a few added tweaks to make it seem not like an FPS. Or the gameplay is so linear that the graphics are really only awesome once. I would much rather stay or go backwards on graphics and play games that are really simplistic visually, and have solid interesting gameplay. I guess that is why I am drawn to RPGs, sandboxes, and RPG like gameplay.So I guess the term 'next gen' has a negative connotation to me as a player. I am definitely not interested in the super awesome graphics with boiler plate gameplay and linear stories.
Point in case:
I bought Crysis to play the mech mods with a friend of mine. I have never actually played the game itself for very long. After playing part of a normal level I quickly lost interest.
I guess it depends upon if you want to make a game for the masses, or a game you enjoy playing.
#6
No the art isn't everything to a game I agree and no it doesnt need to be Ultra realistic but what I aim for is a subliminal realism. So if you look closely you can see its short comings but if you're focused on game play which you should be and the game 'feels' right as you're running around doing what you do then that works for me.
Time, patience and a bit of OCD and we can achieve good quality
06/26/2014 (12:23 am)
Interesting post Ron and I agree with your views on what can be achieved already with 'time and patience'. I'm currently working on some architecture including a modular construction kit for people to build their own buildings. With time and patience we can achieve high quality art I believe already. I'm hoping to release some images of what's achievable with the kit shortly but not until it's ready. ..I still have a numbers of walls where I'm hand texturing bricks one by one. BUT I think it's worth it. No the art isn't everything to a game I agree and no it doesnt need to be Ultra realistic but what I aim for is a subliminal realism. So if you look closely you can see its short comings but if you're focused on game play which you should be and the game 'feels' right as you're running around doing what you do then that works for me.
Time, patience and a bit of OCD and we can achieve good quality
Torque Owner Kory Imaginism
innovative imaginations
Edit: Hopefully the trianglefan to strips will be complete soon..I'm having issues because some of our models are effected by it. My build is using the DX9 refactoring. I would hate to have to redo everything..