Torque 2D: 3.0 and Editors (soon)
by Michael Perry · 01/23/2014 (3:14 pm) · 75 comments
Torque 2D : 3.0 and Editors
In the last episode of Torque 2D, we had some major progress on the topic of 3.0 and the steering committee. As posted in the On The Road blog, Android support was on its way and we added Mike Lilligreen to the steering committee. After that, T2D progress went dark. The committee has dropped to just myself and Mike, with little progress until a couple of weeks ago. After the holiday break, Mike sent out some e-mails to kickoff the final run of a 3.0 release. All T2D users should take a minute to applaud Mike for keeping things going. So here's where we are at.
Android Available
The Android port is ready for testing. If you pull latest development branch, you can start using it. Developing and testing a new platform is no trivial task. What's most needed is testing, testing, testing. Seriously, if you have an Android device then you need to help out with this. Android support was the #1 feature for a 3.0 release, so any problems with it essentially block 3.0 from happening. At a very minimum, we simply need you to pull development, compile, and run on an Android device. Whether you are successful or you run into problems, please post results in this official thread.New Input Controllers
I've managed to merge the Leap Motion code along with Simon Love's Xbox 360 controller support. Rather than pushing directly into development, I submitted a pull request. You can review the pull request via this link. Once again, what is most needed are testers. We need people to test the Leap Motion, the Xbox 360 controller for Windows, and making sure the platforms are compiling and stable. Even if you do not have the input devices, it would be a huge help if you could apply the pull request and let us know if everything else is working as expected.Linux/Steam OS
An unexpected, yet HUGE pull request cropped up recently. If you take a look at this pull request, you will see Frogger has provided a base implementation for Linux and Steam OS support. Once again, we need help testing the pull request. Apply the patch, then check to see if all the other platforms are still functioning properly. Check Windows, OS X, and/or iOS for stability or compiling errors.If you are feeling especially generous, add on to the code and help Frogger finish the implementation to bring Torque 2D to two new platforms.
Spine
The addition of Spine is a huge step forward for Torque 2D. Supporting Spine is not isolated to a single feature. The implementation adds support for "named cells", vets the SpriteBatch system, and further addresses asset pipeline shortcomings. Mike is currently debugging a few key problems with the Spine implementation:* Sporadic crashes on OS X
* Particles occasionally use the wrong named cell or show a completely square particle
* More features from Simon's branch need to be added
If you can, we need help debugging Mike's development branch. We need to isolate the crash and figure out why some particle emissions are "bad." Once again, this is a blocker for 3.0. The sooner we can solve these problems, the sooner 3.0 can launch...which brings us to the next big point...
Editors
Not everyone can agree on features, platforms, and fixes. Priorities and requests will always vary between users. However, there is one feature request that EVERYONE has agreed to be the most important. I'm talking about editors. To survive, let alone become a highly competitive game engine, Torque 2D needs editors. We've written a few blogs about the topic, yet there hasn't been much movement. After a few months away from Torque 2D, I've decided to reevaluate the editors situation.After receiving permission, I now have the green light to develop editors. In fact, I have already started. Actually, I have a working core editor, plugin system, ImageAsset editor, AnimationAsset editor, AudioEditor, AssetSelector, ParticleAsset viewer, and a few other nice spots.
Now, I'm sure everyone would love to have that. There's one problem. All of the editors rely on a 3.0 release. To be blunt, if 3.0 does not happen, then my editor work can't be released. Once 3.0 is available, I can push my editors to my own fork and we can all push T2D to the next level of user-friendliness. Kind of makes all of my above help requests for coders/testers seem a bit more important, huh? Not only will the engine improve immensely, but it paves the way for an editor suite.
--------------
That's all I got for today folks. Torque 2D is a community project. To have stellar features and editors, the engine needs a driving community. So sound off in this blog and the links I've posted. 3.0 needs your help, otherwise it will be stalled and a great technology could decay. I'm excited to start adding my own features, but 3.0 is the first hurdle. Post your thoughts, testing results, and pull requests so we can move on to the next chapter of Torque 2D.
Regards,
Mich
About the author
Programmer.
#2
01/23/2014 (3:48 pm)
Wish I had the time to play around with this, it looks so cool! 
#3
@Michael, I want more love for T3D!!!
01/23/2014 (4:09 pm)
Torque2D this becoming an incredible engine, congratulations to all for the great work :D@Michael, I want more love for T3D!!!
#4
@Luis - Tell you what. If some T3D users make measurable contributions to aiding a Torque 2D 3.0 release, I will make equal contributions to T3D afterwards. I'll vet pull requests, write docs, add a new feature, or whatever. This is still a single community, albeit with different dimension tastes.
01/23/2014 (6:08 pm)
@Stefan - I wish you had time too. You're a solid developer with invaluable experience.@Luis - Tell you what. If some T3D users make measurable contributions to aiding a Torque 2D 3.0 release, I will make equal contributions to T3D afterwards. I'll vet pull requests, write docs, add a new feature, or whatever. This is still a single community, albeit with different dimension tastes.
#5
01/23/2014 (6:10 pm)
I've said this before in the past, but you guys really need to post blog updates more frequently, because I thought all progress had ceased on T2D, yet reading your post I see that a HUGE amount of progress has been made! Sounds awesome Mich 
#6
This being said, I did have one small issue with the current development branch of T2D on GitHub. I figured I might mention this here just in case it helps in some indirect way with identifying potential problems with 3.0. To keep things short and simple:
01/23/2014 (8:36 pm)
Excellent progress and news! This is very exciting to say the least! I have a very limited understanding of the particle system at this point, since that is one of the single aspects of the engine I haven't toyed with yet. This being said, I did have one small issue with the current development branch of T2D on GitHub. I figured I might mention this here just in case it helps in some indirect way with identifying potential problems with 3.0. To keep things short and simple:
- I have a terrain line that is 'drawn' and the position values stored in an array[%n].
- Accessing this array later I render my tiles.
- This doesn't work with the compiled T2D.exe from the current T2D Development branch.
- It does work with the debug.exe(from the dev branch) and also the current T2D 2.0 build.
#7
@Bruno - who are the "you guys" you are referring to? If you mean GarageGames - the engine is no longer in their hands, it is our job as the community to promote things. And there have been some blogs over the past few months:
- Jesse Allen has an awesome dev blog series on his progress with a "Terraria" like game.
- I posted a blog last month with some tutorial links and script code to a simple board game I am working on.
- Paul Jan posts blogs about his GFX work
- Frogger had his Linux blog recently
- James Urquhart just posted a blog hours after this one with a code release for T2D in a web browser.
- There's probably a few other people I forgot about, so apologies for not mentioning them here.
I understand the most visible blog posts are the GG employee ones since they land on the front page but I doubt GG has the time or interest in make sweeping changes to this website. So either we find alternative ways to make T2D news more visible and open for others to contribute to, or we live with what we have (the blogs and forum posting features on this website).
01/23/2014 (10:01 pm)
Thanks for the blog write-up Mich. I've got plenty to say but not much time right now, so it will have to wait until a bit later.@Bruno - who are the "you guys" you are referring to? If you mean GarageGames - the engine is no longer in their hands, it is our job as the community to promote things. And there have been some blogs over the past few months:
- Jesse Allen has an awesome dev blog series on his progress with a "Terraria" like game.
- I posted a blog last month with some tutorial links and script code to a simple board game I am working on.
- Paul Jan posts blogs about his GFX work
- Frogger had his Linux blog recently
- James Urquhart just posted a blog hours after this one with a code release for T2D in a web browser.
- There's probably a few other people I forgot about, so apologies for not mentioning them here.
I understand the most visible blog posts are the GG employee ones since they land on the front page but I doubt GG has the time or interest in make sweeping changes to this website. So either we find alternative ways to make T2D news more visible and open for others to contribute to, or we live with what we have (the blogs and forum posting features on this website).
#8
01/24/2014 (2:01 am)
great news, looking forward to this. I may finally start to get a Torque 2D game out the door :)
#9
I can't stress enough the help we need with testing. You don't need C++ knowledge for this. You don't need Git knowledge for this. Visual Studio Express and Xcode are free programs. The compiler project files that you load are provided for you. I know working with the source could be intimidating for some. I was a pro license user of TGB for years and never touched the source, happy with the binary files GG provided for us. But we don't have a company with a QA department behind us anymore - everything needs to be checked and tested by us if we want a stable, well running engine that doesn't throw roadblocks in our way while making games. So please grab a copy of the development branch or a pull request branch, compile it, and test it with the Sandbox toys or your own personal modules/projects.
As an example, take the Spine issues mentioned above. While newly discovered, this isn't new - the particle bugs have been lurking in that branch for 8 months now. It's not the specific fault of any one person, we all collectively failed to identify the issue sooner. But it's definitely holding up progress towards 3.0 now. Whether it's feature branches, the development branch, or individual pull requests - for those of us with write access to the official repository, finding the time to push the green "merge" button on Github is not the issue. The entire testing that needs to happen for a feature or fix to be vetted is though. If enough people can come forward and comment more on the issues and pull requests submitted to the Github repo, stuff can be merged in much quicker.
tl;dr - please visit and take part in the Github side of T2D development as well.
Documentation
I've already started going through the wiki and have updated two guides with some 3.0 information. I've got a Callback guide, Animation guide, Scene guide, and SceneObject guide in various states of incompleteness on my hard drive. I know the Getting Started Guide will need a small update to make one of the scripts work with 3.0. Another way people can help out now is to use the development branch to test the different tutorials and guides and let everyone know if there is an issue. If we want to bring in new users and have them stick around and use T2D, a solid documentation foundation is needed - and again this is an effort that falls on all of us.
01/24/2014 (4:23 am)
Ok, a few cents from me:I can't stress enough the help we need with testing. You don't need C++ knowledge for this. You don't need Git knowledge for this. Visual Studio Express and Xcode are free programs. The compiler project files that you load are provided for you. I know working with the source could be intimidating for some. I was a pro license user of TGB for years and never touched the source, happy with the binary files GG provided for us. But we don't have a company with a QA department behind us anymore - everything needs to be checked and tested by us if we want a stable, well running engine that doesn't throw roadblocks in our way while making games. So please grab a copy of the development branch or a pull request branch, compile it, and test it with the Sandbox toys or your own personal modules/projects.
As an example, take the Spine issues mentioned above. While newly discovered, this isn't new - the particle bugs have been lurking in that branch for 8 months now. It's not the specific fault of any one person, we all collectively failed to identify the issue sooner. But it's definitely holding up progress towards 3.0 now. Whether it's feature branches, the development branch, or individual pull requests - for those of us with write access to the official repository, finding the time to push the green "merge" button on Github is not the issue. The entire testing that needs to happen for a feature or fix to be vetted is though. If enough people can come forward and comment more on the issues and pull requests submitted to the Github repo, stuff can be merged in much quicker.
tl;dr - please visit and take part in the Github side of T2D development as well.
Documentation
I've already started going through the wiki and have updated two guides with some 3.0 information. I've got a Callback guide, Animation guide, Scene guide, and SceneObject guide in various states of incompleteness on my hard drive. I know the Getting Started Guide will need a small update to make one of the scripts work with 3.0. Another way people can help out now is to use the development branch to test the different tutorials and guides and let everyone know if there is an issue. If we want to bring in new users and have them stick around and use T2D, a solid documentation foundation is needed - and again this is an effort that falls on all of us.
#10
01/24/2014 (6:42 am)
The thing with T2D callbacks is that they're uniformly not uniform. They're usually hidden calls to executef() stuffed into some function that does something we want to know about and they're notoriously hard to find. I feel for you - documenting all of them is a large task, not least because at least a few I know of were not "called out" in the comments for Doxygen. 
#11
How does one go about downloading the example to there android phone? Could you email me directions. I also have a Samsung Galaxy Tab 3. Don't know how to load the sample on them.
vgee@winterleafentertainment.com
Vince
01/24/2014 (10:40 am)
@Michael,How does one go about downloading the example to there android phone? Could you email me directions. I also have a Samsung Galaxy Tab 3. Don't know how to load the sample on them.
vgee@winterleafentertainment.com
Vince
#12
01/24/2014 (10:44 am)
We have an Android guide you can read through. It provides the necessary instructions.
#13
I'm guessing the answer is no, but are there any T2D demos (an APK) you can try on your Android device?
01/24/2014 (11:13 am)
@Mich: I really appreciate that coming from you. Thanks!I'm guessing the answer is no, but are there any T2D demos (an APK) you can try on your Android device?
#14
01/24/2014 (11:42 am)
Yes. T2D ships with a set of usable modules/demos. If you follow the instructions found in the link I posted for Vince, you can get the full engine+modules running. 
#15
01/25/2014 (4:10 pm)
@Mich i have compiled the developement branch for android, running fine (thats the one without your changes). Will do a merge of those later when i get the time. But from the looks of it, it should work, will report when am done.
#16
Everyone shout out big thanks to Tim Newell and MaxGaming for bringing us Android support !
Now, last time I discussed it with him, he was targeting OpenGL ES 1.1 for the graphic pipeline. Is that still the case, or was it switched to ES 2.0 ? If not the latter, maybe I'll start dabbling with that one, as devices with 1.1 support only are now a barely noticeable fraction of the installed base. In six months, the "demographics" went from about half the devices still running a variant of Gingerbread (2.3.x) to about half being on a 4.x version (Ice Cream Sandwich, Jelly Bean or Kitkat) and full support for OGL ES 2.0 and up, with some of them implementing their 1.1 drivers by faking fixed pipeline rendering with 2.0 shaders.
This image, illustrating current (25/01/2014) distribution shows 75+% of devices running Android 4.x variants, which needs a lot more RAM than Gingerbread and nearly guarantees ES 2.0 support.
But I digress and blabber my way towards max character count I'm sure, hehe ! (as usual)
And while I fully understand that the MIT family of Torque engines is not the responsibility of GG anymore, maybe some transitional support to get domain names, hosting, etc. for an independent, community driven website and internet presence for the engines would be a good start to drive that point once and for all and kickstart the indie life of the torque family (spot the puns and win nothing) : good PR for GG to let its babies go by providing token financing for the aforementioned, and make it clear the engines have not been abandoned by open sourcing and hosting them on github, but rather that they've been freed from their fate being tied to one company, and thus can survive any business plan changes, or any other historic upheaval that might happen :)
As it is, I get the feeling that many people still feel that the engines still depend on GG for their development, or as Bruno said, that nothing is happening with them.
The situation screams for a dedicated site(s) for Torque, if not a foundation or somesuch.
The current setup is not serving the community, and not doing much for GG either, I'm sure.
My two cents, as a quasi outsider as I've not been an active member of the community in a long time.
Cheers !
Edit: I will volunteer time for copy writing and editing if such a dedicated, centralized website/online presence can be put in place, as long as it does NOT depend on facebook :) I mean, writing news items, PR/advocacy, etc. or editing those written by others. Can't offer to pay for domain name and hosting, or graphic design for said presence, as my budget doesn't allow for that at the moment, thus the suggestion of a parting gift from GG, and then it would be up to the community as it (re)builds itself up to organise financing and all the other aspects of maintaining our online presence. Any good front end developers out there who breathe and think HTML5 up to donate his time and skills to create the new image for the Torque series of engines ?
And as it surely been discussed, or is being discussed at the moment, where is that happening ? GG forums, github ? Links please, thank you
01/25/2014 (6:01 pm)
Will have to find time to try the Android stuff, since it's totally in my area of interest for the sparse coding/development time I have these days, which is all Android, but not all games. Labour of love, not coding for a living these days, so it's a leisurely, chaotic and eclectic development methodology :)Everyone shout out big thanks to Tim Newell and MaxGaming for bringing us Android support !
Now, last time I discussed it with him, he was targeting OpenGL ES 1.1 for the graphic pipeline. Is that still the case, or was it switched to ES 2.0 ? If not the latter, maybe I'll start dabbling with that one, as devices with 1.1 support only are now a barely noticeable fraction of the installed base. In six months, the "demographics" went from about half the devices still running a variant of Gingerbread (2.3.x) to about half being on a 4.x version (Ice Cream Sandwich, Jelly Bean or Kitkat) and full support for OGL ES 2.0 and up, with some of them implementing their 1.1 drivers by faking fixed pipeline rendering with 2.0 shaders.
This image, illustrating current (25/01/2014) distribution shows 75+% of devices running Android 4.x variants, which needs a lot more RAM than Gingerbread and nearly guarantees ES 2.0 support.
But I digress and blabber my way towards max character count I'm sure, hehe ! (as usual)
And while I fully understand that the MIT family of Torque engines is not the responsibility of GG anymore, maybe some transitional support to get domain names, hosting, etc. for an independent, community driven website and internet presence for the engines would be a good start to drive that point once and for all and kickstart the indie life of the torque family (spot the puns and win nothing) : good PR for GG to let its babies go by providing token financing for the aforementioned, and make it clear the engines have not been abandoned by open sourcing and hosting them on github, but rather that they've been freed from their fate being tied to one company, and thus can survive any business plan changes, or any other historic upheaval that might happen :)
As it is, I get the feeling that many people still feel that the engines still depend on GG for their development, or as Bruno said, that nothing is happening with them.
The situation screams for a dedicated site(s) for Torque, if not a foundation or somesuch.
The current setup is not serving the community, and not doing much for GG either, I'm sure.
My two cents, as a quasi outsider as I've not been an active member of the community in a long time.
Cheers !
Edit: I will volunteer time for copy writing and editing if such a dedicated, centralized website/online presence can be put in place, as long as it does NOT depend on facebook :) I mean, writing news items, PR/advocacy, etc. or editing those written by others. Can't offer to pay for domain name and hosting, or graphic design for said presence, as my budget doesn't allow for that at the moment, thus the suggestion of a parting gift from GG, and then it would be up to the community as it (re)builds itself up to organise financing and all the other aspects of maintaining our online presence. Any good front end developers out there who breathe and think HTML5 up to donate his time and skills to create the new image for the Torque series of engines ?
And as it surely been discussed, or is being discussed at the moment, where is that happening ? GG forums, github ? Links please, thank you
#17
What is needed for the 3.0 Launch to be successful and what is needed to be done?
I am willing to contribute spare time that I have left over from developing my own game.
I am no programmer how ever I am an artist :D
01/25/2014 (7:01 pm)
@Mich - Awesome!What is needed for the 3.0 Launch to be successful and what is needed to be done?
I am willing to contribute spare time that I have left over from developing my own game.
I am no programmer how ever I am an artist :D
#18
01/25/2014 (8:37 pm)
Long time no see Eric Preisz it.
#19
01/26/2014 (6:29 am)
@J0linar - Thanks! If I get two other reports of my pull request being stable, I will merge it into development. That's a big step toward 3.0
#20
Nothing is stopping this from happening. I've heard so many different people say the same thing, yet no one is doing it. The real problem is complacency. Either they are waiting for someone else to do it, pay for it, set it up, or get something from GG to do it. I'm not trying to be mean, but what little motion I've seen others put forth to spin out a community has been basically ignored. We have groups on Facebook, groups on G+, two different Torque sites, and a Trello board. They see zero activity. Why? Because people are content to coming to this site and using piggybacking off the services offered here (web hosting/forums/blogs).
Outside of shutting down the website, there's nothing GG can do to change this. It's up to everyone else. The same goes for spinning up and controlling a separate repository. Anyone can do this. You just need to make a convincing argument on why it should become the main repository, then have people flock to it. There is a reason the original repo is maintained the way it is. I think it's a terrible idea to get every single person push/commit capabilities. The repo will degrade and the engine stability will suffer. Even if someone spins off their own main repository, you should heavily consider putting safeguards in place.
01/26/2014 (6:29 am)
@Nicolas -Quote:The situation screams for a dedicated site(s) for Torque, if not a foundation or somesuch.
The current setup is not serving the community, and not doing much for GG either, I'm sure.
My two cents, as a quasi outsider as I've not been an active member of the community in a long time.
Nothing is stopping this from happening. I've heard so many different people say the same thing, yet no one is doing it. The real problem is complacency. Either they are waiting for someone else to do it, pay for it, set it up, or get something from GG to do it. I'm not trying to be mean, but what little motion I've seen others put forth to spin out a community has been basically ignored. We have groups on Facebook, groups on G+, two different Torque sites, and a Trello board. They see zero activity. Why? Because people are content to coming to this site and using piggybacking off the services offered here (web hosting/forums/blogs).
Outside of shutting down the website, there's nothing GG can do to change this. It's up to everyone else. The same goes for spinning up and controlling a separate repository. Anyone can do this. You just need to make a convincing argument on why it should become the main repository, then have people flock to it. There is a reason the original repo is maintained the way it is. I think it's a terrible idea to get every single person push/commit capabilities. The repo will degrade and the engine stability will suffer. Even if someone spins off their own main repository, you should heavily consider putting safeguards in place.
Employee Michael Perry
ZombieShortbus