DotNetTorque Update, Important Changes.

#1 @Vince,
You are a coding animal!
Great job on reworking it so fast for the MIT release.
This will definitely help ship a lot of games.

#2 Can't wait for DNT to hit the store,

I'm working on other things atm. but as soon as I've finished "ADV one and a half" I'll be taking DNT for a spin.

#3 I'm very glad to see that you were able to take the Open Source direction of T3D into account and adapt to it.

No need to be so on the defensive on the fact that you want to sell stuff. open source doesn't mean freeloaders per se. Look at the Joomla ecosystem: full of useful (commercial) plugins. Also wordpress themes. I'm convinced that polished and useful addon products will have great sales.

#4 Owait... What?.. Wait... What? So DNT is kindda open source compatible? I'm quite baffled by these news! I mean it's great but seems like alot of the money goes down the drain for you! But I hope you have some plans for the DNT future!
Either way I will buy it on the spot it gets in the store! Can't wait :)

#5 @Lukas,

I guess we will lose some money due to this change, but in the end I believe people will purchase the package for support and updates.

We just loosened the licensing on the "generated c++/chsharp code", so that it could be used in open source projects.

You still need to own DNT/DNTCT to generate/update the core code to keep it in sync with modifications made to your T3D engine.

Vince

#6 This will open things up for a smaller shop, where the licensing can be purchased once. The code be generated and compiled in and distributed to the other programmers and artist without needing a license for EACH person - just the one license for the person doing the compiling.

This is also good for people like you Lukas and the AFX kit where you can generate the code vs your own code base, compile in the source code and then distribute the product. That allows you to use DNT but if someone else that wanted to modify code and recompile the DNT generated code, they would need to purchase DNT then so that they can get the code generator. The source code generator that you purchase cannot be distributed, just the code.

So are we taking a hit? yes. but do we feel overall that WLE will be put in a win-win situation? yes.

Little know fact - DNT already had a v2 in the works and we have another product that we are working on that uses DNT as part of the code base. DNT v1 isnt going to be our own product out the door.

#7 Paul,

this is kinda confusing, compile source then distribute, "generated c++/chsharp code", so that it could be used in open source projects.
So are we taking a hit?.....

last time i heard more than a month ago you said you already submited to GG store and still no product yet.

etc.....

what do mean by all this.

will there be a release soon or still on beta? is so when exactly.

price? has it changed or the same? last time you said price was already settled, 100 for binary and 300 for source? but now you said in this blog that price is not settled yet?

source will there be source or not, will this be necessary? if so what new price? or will there just be one package?,

please clarify since so far its been unclear to me, every time you post a blog things are different, new delay because MIT? is MIT source different than commercial 1.2

thank you, looking forward to understand the final version of what will be the faith of DNT so i can get my hands on a license.

#8 @Pilotcap232

I understand your confusion about the delays, truth be told, they are mostly due to me more than Paul.

Originally, we were going to do a closed source release, and charge between 100 - 300 bucks for it etc. Back then T3D wasn't MIT, CE wasn't really around and the licensing model made since.

Now, I'm the main bug fixer/coder/visionary for the DotNetTorque project.
Paul is the business brains and QA as well as my sounding wall.

When things started to go sideways at Garage Games, (they told us this great thing was about to happen) I told Paul to hold the submission.

Then when MIT came out, we spent a couple days trying to figure out how it changed our business model. (AFX had the same questions).

So after talking with Paul, (Really I beat him up), I convinced him to make everything but the "code generating program(DotNetTorque Customizer" very liberally licensed in spirit of T3D going MIT.

What this would allow, is one person on say the CE build team to use their license of the "DotNetTorque Customizer" (Which they purchased) to generate all the DotNetTorque C++ and CSharp Code and check it into the public SVN without violating our licensing.

ANYONE else using the CE project could use the generated code in there projects w/out violating any copyright/licensing and without needing to buy a license of DNT.

The only rule is that you can't pass around the "DotNetTorque Customizer" which is the program that generated all of the code.

The "DotNetTorque Customizer" did not exist up until about 10 days ago. My original parser and code generator was just some scrappy code I had written to make my life easier. So we had a delay as I rolled it into something that I would not be embarrassed to release, thus the new delay.

On the other delays... You can ask Sean at HNGamers, I'm very particular about my programming. If I find a bug I drill into it and resolve it. So, each time I would submit it to QA (Paul/Sean/Rich) and bugs were found I would put the release on hold until I fixed them.


Most times it was a week delay. Then we would need to update the documents (i.e. send them to the editor) and then resubmit everything back to QA and the process would repeat.

On the pricing topic, the pricing has come down dramatically. This was another outcome due to MIT. We are banking on the hope that since T3D is MIT more people will use it. No longer do we need to charge 200-300 dollars for a license because the active user base is only a few thousand people. Now, the active user base is (Have no clue, hopefully big!) So we could lower the licensing cost since we can spread our costs out over more licensees.

Also, until we get the product into GarageGames's hands we can't start negotiating on what there take of each sale will be. So we don't know if it is 10,20,30 or what percent. So if we say now the price is 150 bucks, and GG says they want 50%, well we might have issues. But if they say there take is 3-5 percent then we can lower our price since we will be getting more of each transaction. This is the main reason we are avoiding stating a price.

I can state, the license cost will be 150 bucks or less. You will get ALL the source code generated, plus the ability to regenerate the guts of DNT against your T3D build using the DotNetTorque Customizer.

The optional support membership fee will be 30 dollars a year. You will get one year free included in the purchase. This will entitle your to free updates/patches/new releases/new sample projects/ and forum support.




It wasn't the code changes due to MIT that delayed us, it was the changes to our business model.

Right now, I'm holding up the release for the record. I work a day job for 10 hours a day, and I've been programming another 8-10 hours a night. I fell asleep in my chair after dinner last night and didn't finish fixing the bugs from the last QA for todays submission to GG.

I hope this helps,

Vince

#9 Thank you Vince,

this is more clear now.

I always like to speak my mind up, and am sorry if what I have stated before sounded harsh, did not mean to, nor am a troller.

but like i said before, if i am going to purchase you product which most likely am very interested, I would like to set the cards on the table and know what i am getting for my hard earned money. and dont like surprises of a future price fluctuation/instability

so far all sounds logic, i know the price has not been set yet due of the lack of GG commission rate setup yet. I hope they wont abuse, like unity did abusing with 30% assetstore commission, those greedy ........

now, it sounds great to know the price will dramatically be decreased due of the massive forecast of new users due of the new MIT.
But your guesstimate of 150 or less sounds 50% higher than what the previous price set about a month ago before the MIT.

so I assume is dramatically increased? at least for indie who only needed binary .dll

now if your are talking about the source, then it is decreased since you quoted it at around 300 before.
source $300 and binary $100 before the MIT.

so that is half price. but like you stated before, source is pretty much not used or required since all needed is the binary dotnetTorque.dll and you stated before. unless you really wanted to own the source for some extra enhancement feature one would like to implement.


so for the indies who did not needed the source, it will be a 50% increase instead of decrease. that does not really help, at least not myself.


ofcourse this is just guesstimates as you stated since it all depends on GG commission rate from store



Now, for the 30 dls membership a year, where have I seen that before.hmmmm. ohh yeah, dream mmorpg kit? that fell thru the crack unfortunately.

I dont know, and am sorry if being quite harsh, but like to speak my mind up, but I know if you have a great product and give excellent support for it and free updates, you dont need to increase price or change for recurring membership , since new client will come in bulk that you cant imagine.


but at the end, no one is here to tell what you should do or charge, since it is your product and you setup the startup rules.

so the ball is in your court , which depending of that will set the path to your success.

you got a nice thing going and wish the best.

thank you again for the detailed explanation. much appreciated.

#10 @pilotcap,

I'm don't think I'm presenting the new licensing to you correctly.

The indie license will basically be free, assuming someone on the internet with a DNT Customizer license runs the code generator against the base build and posts the files online.

All of the code used to make DNT usable will be under a very liberal license.

For example,

So, someone buys a license of DNT Customizer.

They run it against the MIT build and check the source code (Not compiled dlls) into a branch in github.

Anyone can then download, use, modify, etc, the code to make a game, simulation etc, we don't care. The just can't check in or share the DNT Customizer Executable.


So really we reduced the indie license to zero (Assuming someone in the community generates the source code and posts it), and we cut the the other license cost in half.

The biggest things that the people who pay for the license get are updates to the code generator, sample projects, and technical support.

These things things take time to develop, test and document.

Vince

#11 @pilotcap

Quote:so far all sounds logic, i know the price has not been set yet due of the lack of GG commission rate setup yet. I hope they wont abuse, like unity did abusing with 30% assetstore commission, those greedy ........

That's pretty much the standard around most content stores. That's the current cut at the Apple store, Facebook credits, etc. The Daz 3D store was 50% the last time I checked, but 30/70 is pretty much becoming the standard.

#12 Chk your email when you get a moment David :)

Id like to start chatting about any packets that I need to start looking over.

#13 @Vince

ok that sounds even better for indies,

excuse my noobness.
so basically the DNT Customizer license is the one that will be up for sale, right?


ok so what can you do with the DNT Customizer?, will it embed some sort of logo, link, or remove? watermark, or powered by?

would like to know the feature and benefit of it having our own DNT Customizer license. vs a MIT build dotnet code?


@David,

I understand that, may be a standard now a days, but why be like everyone else, different is even better. :-), start a new revolutionary age of game dev with new T3D MIT, belive me, will be more attractive for the masses. affordable is better when you have a massive audience
and that is the whole purpose of T3D going MIT, to earn on the store sales.

but if that is the route they want to take and as longest it is non-exclusive and the author can sell its goods however he wants.

#14 @Pilotcap232

DNT Customizer Tool is part of DNT. when you purchase DNT you get:

DNT Core
FPS Starter converted line by line from TorqueScript to CSharp
FPS Starter converted to CSharp removing Packages and Core model
FPS Starter converted to CSharp removing Packages and Core model as a dedicated client
Empty Project Solution (For starting your own projects)

The compiled `DNT Customizer Tool` application.
DNT SDK Manual
DNT Owners Manual
1 yr subscription that covers support, updates, etc.

What that basically means is that Vince converted the FPS Starter from TorqueScript to C# FOR YOU and set it up several different ways - depending on how you might want to use it.

Now.... according to the licensing and EULA.... all that can be *distributed* is the code that the DNT Customizer creates. The DNT Customizer is licensed to the purchaser. We did it that way so if someone wanted to purchase it and put it in the MIT or the CE build, they could. But then, that means that that person would need to rerun the DNT Customizer everytime they changed the C++.

Now if someones code base changed from those builds, they would need to purchase their own copy of DNT so they could run it vs their own build. If they wanted support or updates or anything else like that, they would need to purchase DNT. If all they wanted was the ability to program the game logic in a .NET language without any support, then just hope that someone buys the kit and is willing to use it on the kit and publish the code.

Does that make more sense?

#15 thanks Paul,

making more sense, and getting there.

so the DNT Customizer what it does is creates a project solution with existing T3D MIT source?

so you can then compile the t3d game binaries?

also, will there be a separate project solution for script coding gameplay in c#
if so, how is the new c# scripting files going to compile in, to another .dll which T3D then read from? to run the game? or will the c# code be exposed like TS.(well, TS can auto compile by the binary when ran, if doing the right settings on source)

better yet, maybe a good idea to have some sort of videos about DNT about the workflow or scripting tutorials etc...

just an idea so others in the same situation like myself can fully know what this can do for us. and how it works before we purchase.

maybe i am tired, cuz my brain is clicking very slowly today, lol
and maybe tomorrow when more rested all this will make more sense.

#16 I would be very glad to pay the 30$ yearly fee if that means supporting you in enhancing and updating the package.

#17 Basically it is a professional tool for professional developers who need a professional .NET solution for T3D. Professional quality tools for $150, plus $30 maintenance fee. Sounds like a good deal for those that need .NET.

It certainly would take me a lot more time to develop and the man hour costs would be in the thousands. With my experience with extending Python with T3D it certainly has been in the thousands of dollars. I also know Vince has put in WAY more time on his interface than I have on mine.

Good job Winter Leaf professionals!