Blender-Max Interface
by Jeff Raab · 06/14/2012 (10:45 pm) · 24 comments
I loved the idea of Blender: fast, clean, totally free 3d modeling tool. I've kept an eye on it for ages now, but there was one thing that always got in the way and that's the interface. It seems that's pretty much everyone's gripe with Blender if they grew up on any of the 'golden standard' modelling programs, such as Max or Maya(heck, even stuff like milkshape).
But as luck would have it, the guys at Blender finally got around in version 2.5 of adding interface preferences, and included with it a Maya keybind. When I saw that, I figured this was a step in the right direction, but it wasn't quite there yet.
I hadn't seen anything filling the 3ds Max 'gap', so I'd been piecing together a max-based interface setup that feels a lot more at home for people that are used to something like 3ds Max.
Right now, it's more or less a early alpha. There's a lot missing for it to be a full-blown replacement yet(in my opinion), but this setup goes well on it's way to being a replacement. With a bit of luck(and some freetime from full game development to work on missing tools) blender might be a solid alternative to 3ds max.
Me and my friends have been tooling around with it for the past week or two, and I feel it's solid enough that I can get a wider breadth of opinions on it so I know what and where to improve.
I'm a decent artist, but I don't know everything, nor do I know where more skilled artists think improvements are needed. So I'm throwing this out to try and get a little more attention to it and get some more feedback on what should be tweaked or worked on.
Currently, the files and installation instructions/changelog are handled on a google documents collection. The files can be downloaded via this link:
docs.google.com/folder/d/0B-C0B-HmEpqodlJUb3J3U28zems/edit
Just follow the instruction manual and you should be on your way. Post any feedback or suggestions here and I'll see what I can do about getting things updated and lovable.
But as luck would have it, the guys at Blender finally got around in version 2.5 of adding interface preferences, and included with it a Maya keybind. When I saw that, I figured this was a step in the right direction, but it wasn't quite there yet.
I hadn't seen anything filling the 3ds Max 'gap', so I'd been piecing together a max-based interface setup that feels a lot more at home for people that are used to something like 3ds Max.
Right now, it's more or less a early alpha. There's a lot missing for it to be a full-blown replacement yet(in my opinion), but this setup goes well on it's way to being a replacement. With a bit of luck(and some freetime from full game development to work on missing tools) blender might be a solid alternative to 3ds max.
Me and my friends have been tooling around with it for the past week or two, and I feel it's solid enough that I can get a wider breadth of opinions on it so I know what and where to improve.
I'm a decent artist, but I don't know everything, nor do I know where more skilled artists think improvements are needed. So I'm throwing this out to try and get a little more attention to it and get some more feedback on what should be tweaked or worked on.
Currently, the files and installation instructions/changelog are handled on a google documents collection. The files can be downloaded via this link:
docs.google.com/folder/d/0B-C0B-HmEpqodlJUb3J3U28zems/edit
Just follow the instruction manual and you should be on your way. Post any feedback or suggestions here and I'll see what I can do about getting things updated and lovable.
About the author
#3
06/16/2012 (4:05 am)
Idk I'm actually pretty fund of the Blender interface, but that might just be because I'm used to it. One thing that bothers me is that it is different from Max so working in 'industrial standards' can be tough initially.
#4
I didn't mean this as a "omg blender interface am sux!", but it's a pretty well understood fact that if you're coming from one of the many 'industrial standard' programs like me, blender's a very hard sell, if only because of the interface.
This is intended to let the user be able to ignore that and work with what is very steadily becoming an exceptionally stable tool.
If you're already used to blender's standard interface, then you're already ahead of the curve in that regard ;)
06/16/2012 (5:01 am)
Yeah, I can understand what you mean Lukas.I didn't mean this as a "omg blender interface am sux!", but it's a pretty well understood fact that if you're coming from one of the many 'industrial standard' programs like me, blender's a very hard sell, if only because of the interface.
This is intended to let the user be able to ignore that and work with what is very steadily becoming an exceptionally stable tool.
If you're already used to blender's standard interface, then you're already ahead of the curve in that regard ;)
#5
This reminds me alot of the gimpshop skin, where Gimp is skinned to look like photoshop and uses the same names for filters etc.
I think it's a great thing as Blender really can do the same things as any of those expensive 3d solutions, so it, for me, makes more sense to work in Blender since it is free.
This would also make for a great transition tool so young 3d hobbyist could train 3d modeling and not purchase a big expensive tool for it right away but instead work in the free blender while still getting trained to work in that expensive tool.
06/19/2012 (4:06 am)
Wasn't minded on you I think the project is great! Was more minded on Steve which gave me a feeling of a hate against the Blender interface.This reminds me alot of the gimpshop skin, where Gimp is skinned to look like photoshop and uses the same names for filters etc.
I think it's a great thing as Blender really can do the same things as any of those expensive 3d solutions, so it, for me, makes more sense to work in Blender since it is free.
This would also make for a great transition tool so young 3d hobbyist could train 3d modeling and not purchase a big expensive tool for it right away but instead work in the free blender while still getting trained to work in that expensive tool.
#6
06/22/2012 (7:11 pm)
And here's me fumbling around what I thought was someone's attempt at a joke. And Jeff, Blender interface am indeed sux. I think it was designed by M.C. Escher. Still, I'm glad to be learning 3d modelling in Blender. This way I get to make myself poor in some other manner. Also, despite my discomfort with it, I've had a total of zero negative export issues thus far. Touch wood. 
#7
However, the original Blender interface was designed very specifically to allow the right hand to stay on the mouse and the left hand to stay on the keyboard. The idea was to increase productivity as you never need to switch devices, or at least very rarely.
One of the issues with acceptance is that Windows programs are not designed very well as far as interfaces go. It requires way more clicks than necessary and causes the user to constantly switch from mouse to keyboard and back and forth way too much.
There is a lesson here. Our games should not conform to standards for the sake of conforming to standards. If the game runs on the PC it should not act as though it is on a console and vice versa. One of my main complaints with Oblivion is the interface is bad when you need to navigate the in game menus. It takes a lot of mouse movement and clicks that just tire your arm out for the PC version. I have figured out how to use the keyboard and that helps, but it is seems to be designed for the console with the PC interface as an afterthought.
06/24/2012 (5:58 pm)
This is good for users that are transitioning. However, the original Blender interface was designed very specifically to allow the right hand to stay on the mouse and the left hand to stay on the keyboard. The idea was to increase productivity as you never need to switch devices, or at least very rarely.
One of the issues with acceptance is that Windows programs are not designed very well as far as interfaces go. It requires way more clicks than necessary and causes the user to constantly switch from mouse to keyboard and back and forth way too much.
There is a lesson here. Our games should not conform to standards for the sake of conforming to standards. If the game runs on the PC it should not act as though it is on a console and vice versa. One of my main complaints with Oblivion is the interface is bad when you need to navigate the in game menus. It takes a lot of mouse movement and clicks that just tire your arm out for the PC version. I have figured out how to use the keyboard and that helps, but it is seems to be designed for the console with the PC interface as an afterthought.
#8
Blender's issue is they started with that, and apparently figured 'lets use the mouse as little as possible' because their keybinds are a mess. It seemed to go from 'this makes sense to have this key here' to 'what keys are free'.
A lot of how max handles stuff is contextual based on what mode you're in, instead of trying to be able to have everything done from everywhere(and thus causing the mess that is the keybind arrangement). To make the interfece be at it's best, you need a concession of easy to use keybinds and quick, but in-depth menu/mouse interfaces. I think that was part of the idea behind 3ds max's ribbon interface. You still do a lot with the keyboard, but many of the common functions that aren't interaction/movement get moved to an easy to use mouse-centric interface.
This is different from how blender's usually presented, with a keybind list a mile long.
The interface overhauls in the recent versions definitely indicate they're trying to fix that problem, but even then, the interface and key arrangements are going to need getting used to if you're coming from a different program.
It's getting there, but the interface still has enough over-complication and not being particular intuitive to people learned off soemthing like max that a middleground makes sense.
Just my 2 cents on it ;)
06/24/2012 (11:20 pm)
My issue is, 3ds max follows the same notion(or at least, that's how I'd always used it). Left hand at the keyboard(mainly WER keys) and right hand on the mouse.Blender's issue is they started with that, and apparently figured 'lets use the mouse as little as possible' because their keybinds are a mess. It seemed to go from 'this makes sense to have this key here' to 'what keys are free'.
A lot of how max handles stuff is contextual based on what mode you're in, instead of trying to be able to have everything done from everywhere(and thus causing the mess that is the keybind arrangement). To make the interfece be at it's best, you need a concession of easy to use keybinds and quick, but in-depth menu/mouse interfaces. I think that was part of the idea behind 3ds max's ribbon interface. You still do a lot with the keyboard, but many of the common functions that aren't interaction/movement get moved to an easy to use mouse-centric interface.
This is different from how blender's usually presented, with a keybind list a mile long.
The interface overhauls in the recent versions definitely indicate they're trying to fix that problem, but even then, the interface and key arrangements are going to need getting used to if you're coming from a different program.
It's getting there, but the interface still has enough over-complication and not being particular intuitive to people learned off soemthing like max that a middleground makes sense.
Just my 2 cents on it ;)
#9
I installed you 3ds Max Clone setup today and I can already model with Blender now. Before this I used to just open it up and stare at it.
Thanks so much.
Robert
07/01/2012 (5:49 pm)
I have been wanting to use and support Blender for a long time but the learning curve was so steep. I have the student version MAX and can get around good to what I want in it. I really didn't see my self paying for the full version when the student one expires.I installed you 3ds Max Clone setup today and I can already model with Blender now. Before this I used to just open it up and stare at it.
Thanks so much.
Robert
#10
Glad it's helping!
Seriously though, any or all opinions on improvements to the layout, missing keybinds, etc are appreciated. It's got a ways to go yet, and I'm bound to miss something, so if it's not in there and you think it should be let me know and I'll see what I can do.
07/01/2012 (6:22 pm)
Hey Robert,Glad it's helping!
Seriously though, any or all opinions on improvements to the layout, missing keybinds, etc are appreciated. It's got a ways to go yet, and I'm bound to miss something, so if it's not in there and you think it should be let me know and I'll see what I can do.
#11
07/01/2012 (7:43 pm)
Thanks Jeff, will do.
#12
Thanks
07/08/2012 (5:21 pm)
@Jeff - This Blender is really working good for me know. On your next update can you make Edge Loop controls pop up like the mesh and modeling tools do when you hit the space bar?Thanks
#13
It would also be nice to have less clutter.. all of the drop down menus and everything that's loading in what should be the Command Panel is really annoying.
If that can be pushed to a tab style interface it would be great.
Also, can you still change the overall color scheme using the GUI options or do we need to do each item manually to avoid overwriting things you've done with the UI?
I haven't used Max since 2007-08ish because my license ran out and I didn't want to pirate it (and couldn't afford $3k for hobbyware) but 3dsMax is what I learned in college and used for simulations.. I've tried Blender's default interface (which is horrible.. sensory overload personified) and have installed Houdini's free version and a few others with very minimal success. You've come pretty close to the general feel of 3ds Max and for that, thanks a million.
07/27/2012 (11:08 am)
Thanks for this.. I don't know how far you can take your customization but I'd definitely want to push more of a quad-driven menu.. It would also be nice to have less clutter.. all of the drop down menus and everything that's loading in what should be the Command Panel is really annoying.
If that can be pushed to a tab style interface it would be great.
Also, can you still change the overall color scheme using the GUI options or do we need to do each item manually to avoid overwriting things you've done with the UI?
I haven't used Max since 2007-08ish because my license ran out and I didn't want to pirate it (and couldn't afford $3k for hobbyware) but 3dsMax is what I learned in college and used for simulations.. I've tried Blender's default interface (which is horrible.. sensory overload personified) and have installed Houdini's free version and a few others with very minimal success. You've come pretty close to the general feel of 3ds Max and for that, thanks a million.
#14
EDIT: I also don't see loop/ring selection.. I don't know if I'm missing it or if it's not there but I did find loopcut.
EDIT 2: Is there a way to select backfacing vertices? I am trying to move everything at once on a long edge with cuts and it's only getting the facing vertex.
07/27/2012 (11:12 am)
Oh.. I forgot to ask if there was a hotkey assigned to toggle back and forth on the viewports between the 2x2 and 1 main screen and did you assign one for tearing off viewports? I would look but I am honestly not sure what they're listed under in preferences..EDIT: I also don't see loop/ring selection.. I don't know if I'm missing it or if it's not there but I did find loopcut.
EDIT 2: Is there a way to select backfacing vertices? I am trying to move everything at once on a long edge with cuts and it's only getting the facing vertex.
#15
@Robert: 2.64 is supposed to have some improved edgeloop stuff if I remember right, so I'll look at modifying the Dynamic Spacebar menu to add that stuff into it when it's officially out.
@Mike:
Can you help clarify what you mean about the tab style interface?
As for adjusting the color themes, to my knowledge, none of that should get in the way of the UI/keybind layouts. If you run into a problem when trying it, let me know.
As for the min/max viewport keybind, you're looking for Alt+W, which will toggle the viewport selected.
To turn backface selection on, you'll look at the second top bar. Just to the right of the vert/edge/face selection options, there's a little cube with the verts highlighted. That toggles the backface selection. It's called 'Limit Selection to Visible'.
07/27/2012 (12:22 pm)
Hey guys, thanks for the responses!@Robert: 2.64 is supposed to have some improved edgeloop stuff if I remember right, so I'll look at modifying the Dynamic Spacebar menu to add that stuff into it when it's officially out.
@Mike:
Can you help clarify what you mean about the tab style interface?
As for adjusting the color themes, to my knowledge, none of that should get in the way of the UI/keybind layouts. If you run into a problem when trying it, let me know.
As for the min/max viewport keybind, you're looking for Alt+W, which will toggle the viewport selected.
To turn backface selection on, you'll look at the second top bar. Just to the right of the vert/edge/face selection options, there's a little cube with the verts highlighted. That toggles the backface selection. It's called 'Limit Selection to Visible'.
#16
As for the tab-style interface: It's pretty much a tab style already but I had selected something.. not sure what, and it changed the command panel area (some Blender guys are probably raging at me calling it that) into an incoherent mess of menus.. Is it possible to arrange the buttons to be more similar to their arrangement in 3ds Max? Meaning (I'm a bit rusty) Object and Modifier first then whatever else after? It's not a big deal honestly but it would help that initial impact.
As for the rest of my stuff, I got really excited that I was able to use Blender and frustrated at being rusty/not understanding a few of the differences.
Ring and Loop select aren't currently in Blender?
EDIT: Oh and thanks again man.. This allows me to actually rebuild my portfolio/demo-reel and hopefully get back to work in 3d.
EDIT2: Another rusty/noob question, is there a hotkey for toggling shading modes in the viewport?
07/27/2012 (1:00 pm)
Thanks, soon after I posted I found those (and what I needed for symmetry box-modeling!) As for the tab-style interface: It's pretty much a tab style already but I had selected something.. not sure what, and it changed the command panel area (some Blender guys are probably raging at me calling it that) into an incoherent mess of menus.. Is it possible to arrange the buttons to be more similar to their arrangement in 3ds Max? Meaning (I'm a bit rusty) Object and Modifier first then whatever else after? It's not a big deal honestly but it would help that initial impact.
As for the rest of my stuff, I got really excited that I was able to use Blender and frustrated at being rusty/not understanding a few of the differences.
Ring and Loop select aren't currently in Blender?
EDIT: Oh and thanks again man.. This allows me to actually rebuild my portfolio/demo-reel and hopefully get back to work in 3d.
EDIT2: Another rusty/noob question, is there a hotkey for toggling shading modes in the viewport?
#17
Ring/Lookp select is in, but it's a bit limited/clunky as-is.
Blender isn't as context-friendly as it probably should be yet(so the same keybind like, say, shift + click, may not let you do multiple things depending on the context.) So that limits some of what it can do for the moment. There is one addon that expands the ring/loop editing support, but it's only compatible with svn builds, or the soon-to-be-released 2.64. When that's out, it should help with what you can do with that. It's still not the graphite editing from max, but it's an improvement.
Also, there isn't a keybind for shading modes at the moment, I don't think. You can change that via the little dropdown to the right of the Edit/Object mode dropdown.
07/27/2012 (7:57 pm)
I can look into trying to tweak the arrangement of the 'Command Menu' to be more in line order-wise with max, sure. By default I don't think you can just drag them around, but I'll look into it.Ring/Lookp select is in, but it's a bit limited/clunky as-is.
Blender isn't as context-friendly as it probably should be yet(so the same keybind like, say, shift + click, may not let you do multiple things depending on the context.) So that limits some of what it can do for the moment. There is one addon that expands the ring/loop editing support, but it's only compatible with svn builds, or the soon-to-be-released 2.64. When that's out, it should help with what you can do with that. It's still not the graphite editing from max, but it's an improvement.
Also, there isn't a keybind for shading modes at the moment, I don't think. You can change that via the little dropdown to the right of the Edit/Object mode dropdown.
#18
When 2.64 hits will it integrate into the current install (preserving preferences etc) or will it require everything to be redone?
07/28/2012 (10:13 am)
Thanks a million! It's astonishing that you can't step through the shading modes with a toggle or something.. that's pretty standard in most programs :/ I'm pretty sure it was Z in older versions of Blender as well.. but it's been a very long while since I messed with that.When 2.64 hits will it integrate into the current install (preserving preferences etc) or will it require everything to be redone?
#19
I'll make sure I have the instructions for upgrading to a new version of blender. It *should* retain everything on it's own, but I'll give it a test over for any oddities.
Gotta say though, one thing I don't appreciate about Blender's design philosophy in regards to keybinds is 'lets use every key in every combination physically possible! WOO!'. When I go to configure, say, the animation/rigging keys, and WER no longer pertain to Translation/Rotation/Scale, but a bunch of random menus I have to track down and override the keys for, it makes me want to punch myself.
Ah well, just gotta keep pushing to fix all that. ;)
07/28/2012 (11:43 am)
There may be a keybind(the one I've set up used the built-in maya one as a starting point), but I didn't set one up specifically. I'll keep it in mind to add one in the next release.I'll make sure I have the instructions for upgrading to a new version of blender. It *should* retain everything on it's own, but I'll give it a test over for any oddities.
Gotta say though, one thing I don't appreciate about Blender's design philosophy in regards to keybinds is 'lets use every key in every combination physically possible! WOO!'. When I go to configure, say, the animation/rigging keys, and WER no longer pertain to Translation/Rotation/Scale, but a bunch of random menus I have to track down and override the keys for, it makes me want to punch myself.
Ah well, just gotta keep pushing to fix all that. ;)
#20
When everything shakes out, a list of hotkeys for this setup would be extremely helpful.
I have only been in the modeling portion so far (and file management, where I learned that autobak is not there..), have you been modifying other areas as well?
I'm curious about the material editor specifically, since I never got around to figuring out nodes. They seem like a more graphical representation of map slots but that's one more of those differences.
The other side of that is, how far are you hoping to take the modifications? Are you shooting to do as much of a mirror as possible or just a transitional set of tools (aka training wheels).
07/28/2012 (12:27 pm)
I was actually curious about that.. I pulled up a list of hotkeys for Blender out of the can and.. yeah..When everything shakes out, a list of hotkeys for this setup would be extremely helpful.
I have only been in the modeling portion so far (and file management, where I learned that autobak is not there..), have you been modifying other areas as well?
I'm curious about the material editor specifically, since I never got around to figuring out nodes. They seem like a more graphical representation of map slots but that's one more of those differences.
The other side of that is, how far are you hoping to take the modifications? Are you shooting to do as much of a mirror as possible or just a transitional set of tools (aka training wheels).
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