Torque 3D Development - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
by Brett Seyler · 03/20/2009 (7:53 pm) · 496 comments
Hey everyone! I know some of you saw the Gamasutra story that revealed some previously unreleased details about Torque 3D. I'm going to to try to clarify the whole picture, and fill in any gaps with this post here. Because it's GDC week, I'm already down here in SF doing some PR, talking about iTorque, and talking to some local studios about Torque and InstantAction. Needless to say, definitely keeping busy, so I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible and focus on the stuff I know you most want answered. We've got a big week ahead of us :) I'm guessing we'll get a lot more questions answered in the comments, so feel free to throw out anything I don't cover here.
When I first started blogging on our dev progress in December, I really didn't think we'd get as far as we have, as fast as we have. Torque 3D is really a huge step up from TGEA, particularly with respect to the toolset, usability, and content pipeline. I think users will react most to the effort we've put into the tools, and we'll be showing much more of that in the next few weeks. Of course, we've done some major subsystem updates as well (Web publishing, Terrain, Post processing, Particles, etc).
Licensing
I posted twice on pricing & licensing (one of which is still probably the most commented on post in GG history) and we definitely listened. These were the main takeaways from the roughly 400 comments (and numerous emails) I got since.
Quote:1. Support, especially ticketed support is in high demand. If GG can find a way to provide this, there are Torque developers willing to pay for it.
2. A low entry point to Torque is important, even if it means some restrictions in the EULA or deprecating some features.
3. Greater polish, usability, stability and overall quality are paramount attributes for a high-end Torque product.
4. A focus on tools, and particularly usability in the World Editor, is the most important area to address in Torque 3D.
So we took all that, and really put your opinions into action, both from a development standpoint, and with respect to pricing & licensing. Here is what we decided on:
1. Two versions available on the website, Basic and Professional, each with an Indie EULA.
2. Basic and Pro have a feature delta, with the Pro package being targeted at existing TGEA owners, or pro / prosumer developers and studios who might need to create custom code modifications for their game. The Basic package is targeted at new users, who want to learn the tools, and see what the engine is capable of. You will be able to us Basic to create a game, even though we expect it to ship as a binary only. When working on a larger team, artists and designers often don't need access to the source code, and in these cases, the Basic package will probably be a better fit, given that team members can share compiled binaries with one another.
3. For those looking for a custom EULA, perhaps for an entire studio or for a single project that doesn't qualify for our "Indie" license, we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com. I should note that we probably won't touch any requests to this address that aren't from developers serious about a more expansive license and with the means and ability to pay for it. For example, our typical Studio licenses start @ $6k for a small team, and go up from there.
Features
The Professional version of Torque 3D will include everything we've talked about thus far, and a lot of what still hasn't been revealed. For example, we're planning to include updates to Physics, new Terrain, a Decal Editor, a Datablock Editor, River / Road / Path tools, and a Material editor in the final release.
The Basic version will not include Web Publishing, Advanced Lighting, or the River & Road Tools, but everything else is in there. It will also be binary only. Again, this version is probably not a good fit for most of you who currently own TGEA. We're offering the big discount during the pre-order period only on Pro, and TGEA owners will not be able to apply any of their TGEA license fee to Torque 3D Basic. Only to Professional.
We've been talking about Genre Kits and Add-ons a bit as well. There's some really good stuff coming there, but we don't have any pricing to announce with that yet. There's the Luma Racing Kit (based on their game "Rev" published on InstantAction, and including some of those production assets). There's a much updated FPS Starter Kit with work from Max Gaming and Apparatus. There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people. There's also Gerhard's expansion (unnamed at present) which will probably include a lot of custom assets and functionality on top of what you've already seen.
The takeaway w/ Genre Kits and most of these Add-ons is that they will likely be Pro-only.
Pricing
So, let's break this down just a bit more clearly.
What will Torque 3D cost me?
If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
If you own any other Torque products, you can still purchase TGEA and get the same discount described above for a limited time. The pre-order discount will expire when we release release the final Torque 3D build (expecting this to be in May at the moment). The first beta will be delivered to Torque 3D owners in April.
There is no pre-order available for Torque 3D Basic, and there is no discount on Basic for existing TGEA owners.
Why Pre-order?
Access to the Torque 3D Closed Beta -- First delivery in April An exclusive Torque 3D T-Shirt Torque 3D private forum access on GarageGames.com Up to $495 off the full version priceAs I mentioned before, I'm going to keep posting blogs all the way up to our release, and probably for a while thereafter. We've still got a lot to show.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #15.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#2
// ===============================================
Edit: I have a few tough questions:
1. Explain this image...I see Max's particle system and I must've missed information on this if it were previously made public.
2. Why don't we see any road-images of the river and roads tools ? Perhaps it is not show-worthy yet ?
3. The 'Gerard' Shaders ? ..are they in every T3D version ?
...that was a hefty list of things on the blogs about Gerard.
Thanks ahead of time! & Enjoy the GDC!
03/20/2009 (8:15 pm)
woerd?!, a tshirt ? post a pic when you can plz. Just curious what it looks like.// ===============================================
Edit: I have a few tough questions:
1. Explain this image...I see Max's particle system and I must've missed information on this if it were previously made public.
2. Why don't we see any road-images of the river and roads tools ? Perhaps it is not show-worthy yet ?
3. The 'Gerard' Shaders ? ..are they in every T3D version ?
...that was a hefty list of things on the blogs about Gerard.
Thanks ahead of time! & Enjoy the GDC!
#3
03/20/2009 (8:21 pm)
I'm interesting about the material editor as well. Would you mind talking about it a little bit now? 
#4
The above doesn't reflect that. It's not a showstopper for me as there are benefits to that as well.
EDIT::
I should clarify some more. I am interested if GG is working with Houdini to make sure an new features for T3D in either the DTS or Callada exporter. If so I can see benefits of having a lot of the levels designed completely inside a 3D package.
03/20/2009 (8:35 pm)
I have read two comments in different places, one being that new features in the World Editor would be beneficial to those who are looking for a mod option. The second indicated there would be a separate lic requirement to ship the editor with game?The above doesn't reflect that. It's not a showstopper for me as there are benefits to that as well.
EDIT::
I should clarify some more. I am interested if GG is working with Houdini to make sure an new features for T3D in either the DTS or Callada exporter. If so I can see benefits of having a lot of the levels designed completely inside a 3D package.
#5
03/20/2009 (8:38 pm)
How much is it to license the editor tools so that your customers can make mods for your games? 
#6
Just curious.
Edit: I have to mention, though I question the actual utility of the Basic version, I am pleased by the Pro licensing. And I look forward to getting a GG t-shirt :D
03/20/2009 (8:53 pm)
One thing I'm curious about with the license. T3D Basic doesn't include "Advanced Lighting", but supposedly those who have a Basic license can use binaries built by Pro licensees. Doesn't that then give the Basic licensee access to advanced lighting? What are the terms and restrictions related to that? Just curious.
Edit: I have to mention, though I question the actual utility of the Basic version, I am pleased by the Pro licensing. And I look forward to getting a GG t-shirt :D
#7
Thanks for the blog Brett =)
Oh how I wish I could post a picture of the shirt right now...I don't wanna steal Deborah's thunder, though. Needless to say, it's my favorite GG shirt of all time and I'm wearing it right now.
Good info overall.
03/20/2009 (8:59 pm)
I don't think I have said this to employees since I was hired, but...Thanks for the blog Brett =)
Oh how I wish I could post a picture of the shirt right now...I don't wanna steal Deborah's thunder, though. Needless to say, it's my favorite GG shirt of all time and I'm wearing it right now.
Good info overall.
#8
@eb: The shirt is very very very awesome. Should be a pic up of it next week when the pre-order is available. The image you're pointing to is something Sickhead is working on, and still very WIP. Details probably in a couple weeks or so.
@Steven Chiu: The Material Editor will get it's own blog pretty soon. We're showing it at GDC. Works very nice :)
@Randy: Shipping your game with the editors has always been a fuzzy line. All the editors? Definitely not. Same look / feel / skin on the editors? Probably not. Some very game-specific editors that could not reasonably be construed as a "game making tool?" That's fine.
@Chris Cain: If you want full license to sell or give away the editor tools, you'll need to get in touch with us for a custom EULA. It would not be cheap.
@Gerald Fishel: We're going to try out the sharing binaries thing. It's not extremely well defined. If people w/ Pro binaries are just sharing them with anyone, we're going to put a stop to it, but for use on a single team and a single project, we think that's a good compromise. To answer you question though, yes. Basic licensees could use a Pro binary w/ Advanced Lighting provided they were working on the same team and on the same project as a Pro licensee. We expect people to do the right thing and purchase a Pro license if they need access to the source. We're probably not going to try to define this really cleanly in the EULA. Not even sure that's possible. I'll give it a shot, but as I mentioned, it's not a cut and dry provision. We want Indies to be able to work with eachother, and not force them into a more expensive Studio license. For artists, scripters, and designers, the best solution will probably be to purchase a Basic license and update the binary to whatever custom changes are required for the team's project.
03/20/2009 (9:08 pm)
@Ted: We're thinking May for a full release.@eb: The shirt is very very very awesome. Should be a pic up of it next week when the pre-order is available. The image you're pointing to is something Sickhead is working on, and still very WIP. Details probably in a couple weeks or so.
Quote:2. Why don't we see any road-images of the river and roads tools ? Perhaps it is not show-worthy yet ?I'm probably going to do a blog on the river / road tools post GDC. The road tools are probably more developed and more show-ready than the river stuff, but it's all very solid.
Quote:2. Why don't we see any road-images of the river and roads tools ? Perhaps it is not show-worthy yet ?Gerhard's DoF, SSAO, and other shaders are all expected to be in the final release.
@Steven Chiu: The Material Editor will get it's own blog pretty soon. We're showing it at GDC. Works very nice :)
@Randy: Shipping your game with the editors has always been a fuzzy line. All the editors? Definitely not. Same look / feel / skin on the editors? Probably not. Some very game-specific editors that could not reasonably be construed as a "game making tool?" That's fine.
@Chris Cain: If you want full license to sell or give away the editor tools, you'll need to get in touch with us for a custom EULA. It would not be cheap.
@Gerald Fishel: We're going to try out the sharing binaries thing. It's not extremely well defined. If people w/ Pro binaries are just sharing them with anyone, we're going to put a stop to it, but for use on a single team and a single project, we think that's a good compromise. To answer you question though, yes. Basic licensees could use a Pro binary w/ Advanced Lighting provided they were working on the same team and on the same project as a Pro licensee. We expect people to do the right thing and purchase a Pro license if they need access to the source. We're probably not going to try to define this really cleanly in the EULA. Not even sure that's possible. I'll give it a shot, but as I mentioned, it's not a cut and dry provision. We want Indies to be able to work with eachother, and not force them into a more expensive Studio license. For artists, scripters, and designers, the best solution will probably be to purchase a Basic license and update the binary to whatever custom changes are required for the team's project.
#9
03/20/2009 (9:16 pm)
@Brett, okay, sounds good. I would think as long as a Basic licensee isn't releasing a game with the advanced lighting in it from a shared binary, it probably shouldn't be a big issue. So I can get basic licenses for my artists and then send them copies of the binaries with full lighting. If they touch the source code *I* will kill them anyway :D
#10
03/20/2009 (9:22 pm)
@Gerald: Exactly :) That's the spirit in which hope this will be used.
#11
03/20/2009 (9:22 pm)
OK, so the only question I have is when will the pre-order option be available? I happen to have a bit of cash right at the moment, and that's a rarity...and usually doesn't last long.
#12
Thanks, that is exactly along the lines I was thinking... So there are viable options:)
03/20/2009 (9:25 pm)
@Brett,Thanks, that is exactly along the lines I was thinking... So there are viable options:)
#13
@Randy: Good to hear. Don't want to shut the door on anyone's project, so I'm glad that fits your needs.
03/20/2009 (9:28 pm)
@Alan: March 24th! Hopefully @ 12:01am :)@Randy: Good to hear. Don't want to shut the door on anyone's project, so I'm glad that fits your needs.
#14
03/20/2009 (9:36 pm)
put it in a jiffybag and post it second class to yourself Alan, that way in a week youll still have the cash :P 
#15
Here's an early congratz!
~LK~
03/20/2009 (9:37 pm)
Interesting Brett.. your knew licensing method seems well thought out. Being an owner of multiple engines, I will say you took most of the aspects of this type of licensing and truly made it friendly for the user(s). From what I have read/been told through posts and blogs.. this beats any out there on this level of engine (and thats from someone who hates Delta style).Here's an early congratz!
~LK~
#16
03/20/2009 (9:43 pm)
Thanks Andrew. We did agonize over what to do for quite some time, so it's nice to here we didn't totally blow it! :) 
#17
1. There are some game features (such as a melee system and 3rd person camera, and probably more, but that's just what comes to mind) that are used by numerous games; but currently, these features are very difficult to use properly while only scripting. Will the basic version of Torque 3D have features such as those already functional and exposed to script? I know that there will be some things that a basic license holder just cannot do; what I'm asking about are features that are completely essential for numerous genres that can't be done with script only in TGEA.
2. Are you planning to put out source code bug fixes, in binary form, on a regular basis for the basic version?
3. Are there going to be any changes to Torque Script? And if so, are you planning to do a blog about it later?
03/20/2009 (10:14 pm)
A couple of questions about the basic version:1. There are some game features (such as a melee system and 3rd person camera, and probably more, but that's just what comes to mind) that are used by numerous games; but currently, these features are very difficult to use properly while only scripting. Will the basic version of Torque 3D have features such as those already functional and exposed to script? I know that there will be some things that a basic license holder just cannot do; what I'm asking about are features that are completely essential for numerous genres that can't be done with script only in TGEA.
2. Are you planning to put out source code bug fixes, in binary form, on a regular basis for the basic version?
3. Are there going to be any changes to Torque Script? And if so, are you planning to do a blog about it later?
#18
I don't know what our update plan will look like post-release, but we'll certainly be paying attention to any glaring pain points that binary users encounter. Really though, if you're concerned about being able to do really custom things for your game, it's certainly worth the extra $255 to purchase a Pro license during the pre-order period (assuming you already own TGEA).
03/20/2009 (10:21 pm)
@Twisted Jenius: I'd recommend checking out MattF's comments in yesterday's IRC log. My answer is that, like with any game engine, there are going to be things you can and can't do without source. With Torque Basic, we expect you'll be able to do a lot, and much more if you're working on a team with a member who has a Professional license to allow for source code changes. I don't know what our update plan will look like post-release, but we'll certainly be paying attention to any glaring pain points that binary users encounter. Really though, if you're concerned about being able to do really custom things for your game, it's certainly worth the extra $255 to purchase a Pro license during the pre-order period (assuming you already own TGEA).
#19
I'll have to see.
03/20/2009 (10:24 pm)
Whoops, one of those Cat out of the bag moments. I'm going to have to wait before I buy this. I might do a Pre-order though.I'll have to see.
#20
Or will I have to email you on that brett?
03/20/2009 (10:37 pm)
Ok, i have one question and one question only, referring to the studio edition. Is this a pay-per-developer deal or is it buying a full studio liscense for everyone on the project? If it's that latter that would be a significant price drop from what I was told about the studio liscenses...and also is it a per-game price?Or will I have to email you on that brett?
Torque 3D Owner Ted Southard
The second would be since the beta comes out in April, what is the expected timeframe for the 1.0 release of T3D (fully acknowledging here that any dates given are fuzzy, so I'd accept fuzzy answers)?