Warscale - Update and rant
by Guimo · 09/22/2008 (5:24 pm) · 14 comments
Hi everybody!
This post is just to update on the progress of Warscale and make a personal comment. So, first comes the update.
Update
Things are going fine since the last post. I have improved the Login and Server selector screens making them more efficient and avoided dual messages (I dont know why sometimes clicking a button sent a command two times resulting in a dual login... strange).
Also, the main lobby has been improved and linked to the army editor. The army editor has changed and is now working in the client/server architecture. The Load and SaveAs screens have been improved and are now working fine. Lots of bugs have been removed from the Grid control. Armies are allowed to have from 24 to 40 units depending on your gaming style.
So everything is going fine. I wont post screenshots as the only new things are the Load and Save screens... not much to see.
For this week I plan integrating the Equipment editor and start the integration of the model store so dont expect new screens for a while.
Personal comment
I'm extremely happy seeing the TGEA getting more and more improvements. This week announcement of the new OGL layer which allows it to run in OSX makes it more likely to see the Linux version come soon.
On the other hand, it looks like TGE is just being deprecated. All the announced updates are related to other versions (TGB, TX, etc). No mention to any update or improvement for TGE. Even the GG website has changed and when you click the Make 3D Games link you are saluted with the TGEA page. Like GG is slowly trying to make people forget TGE exists.
Its easy to be moved to eye candy. TGEA brings lots of new visual enhancements that makes us drool and say... I want that in my game! And when you see TGE side by side with TGEA its really easy to say... how did I managed to live with this ugly engine??? But unfortunately, nobody thinks that as the visual quality improves, the development cost also increases in the same proportion and, being an indie, this is not really a wise move on the long run unless you have the funding (and even when you have the funding... just looks at Age of Conan for a current example).
TGE is for making your first version. TGE is for learning. TGE is to develop your first game and sell it providing funds to make the improved version. Games are not just eye candy. How many games with simple graphics have been a success and how many games with monumental budgets and awesome graphics have failed to recover the inversion?
I understand the GG reasons to focus on new technologies and all. In fact now that the engine is able to run in all platforms TGE looks less appealing. But TGE is like a common root and has lots of details currently not available in TGE and lots of resources in the forums are first developed for TGE. Also, it looks easier to move from TGE to any other Torque-based engine than starting from TGEA and then trying to move to say... iTorque.
Anyway this is not a request to GG to make updates on TGE. Maybe just to ask GG to consider that updating TGE codebase and tools is as important as improving the other engines. Its just a personal comment on how sad I feel to see a good old friend slowly go away, but thats software life and if you dont embrace new technology you will soon be dead.
Luck to everybody with your projects!
Guimo
This post is just to update on the progress of Warscale and make a personal comment. So, first comes the update.
Update
Things are going fine since the last post. I have improved the Login and Server selector screens making them more efficient and avoided dual messages (I dont know why sometimes clicking a button sent a command two times resulting in a dual login... strange).
Also, the main lobby has been improved and linked to the army editor. The army editor has changed and is now working in the client/server architecture. The Load and SaveAs screens have been improved and are now working fine. Lots of bugs have been removed from the Grid control. Armies are allowed to have from 24 to 40 units depending on your gaming style.
So everything is going fine. I wont post screenshots as the only new things are the Load and Save screens... not much to see.
For this week I plan integrating the Equipment editor and start the integration of the model store so dont expect new screens for a while.
Personal comment
I'm extremely happy seeing the TGEA getting more and more improvements. This week announcement of the new OGL layer which allows it to run in OSX makes it more likely to see the Linux version come soon.
On the other hand, it looks like TGE is just being deprecated. All the announced updates are related to other versions (TGB, TX, etc). No mention to any update or improvement for TGE. Even the GG website has changed and when you click the Make 3D Games link you are saluted with the TGEA page. Like GG is slowly trying to make people forget TGE exists.
Its easy to be moved to eye candy. TGEA brings lots of new visual enhancements that makes us drool and say... I want that in my game! And when you see TGE side by side with TGEA its really easy to say... how did I managed to live with this ugly engine??? But unfortunately, nobody thinks that as the visual quality improves, the development cost also increases in the same proportion and, being an indie, this is not really a wise move on the long run unless you have the funding (and even when you have the funding... just looks at Age of Conan for a current example).
TGE is for making your first version. TGE is for learning. TGE is to develop your first game and sell it providing funds to make the improved version. Games are not just eye candy. How many games with simple graphics have been a success and how many games with monumental budgets and awesome graphics have failed to recover the inversion?
I understand the GG reasons to focus on new technologies and all. In fact now that the engine is able to run in all platforms TGE looks less appealing. But TGE is like a common root and has lots of details currently not available in TGE and lots of resources in the forums are first developed for TGE. Also, it looks easier to move from TGE to any other Torque-based engine than starting from TGEA and then trying to move to say... iTorque.
Anyway this is not a request to GG to make updates on TGE. Maybe just to ask GG to consider that updating TGE codebase and tools is as important as improving the other engines. Its just a personal comment on how sad I feel to see a good old friend slowly go away, but thats software life and if you dont embrace new technology you will soon be dead.
Luck to everybody with your projects!
Guimo
#2
I wouldn't even know where to start if I had to port all of my code changes over to TGEA. So, for now I am pretty content with TGE + Modernization Kit. Though, TGEA has noticeable performance enhancements that do a great job of keeping me jealous. Whenever I can afford the extra dough for TGEA, I may convert to the shiny side, but I am a bit worried about the learning curve coming over from TGE. We shall see.
09/22/2008 (6:02 pm)
I hear what you're saying Guimo. My game is built on TGE, and I have used many, many resources from here. Be it forums or resources. In fact, I think the community and community-based resources is why I chose TGE in the first place: to give a leg up on development time and prevent reinventing the wheel. I wouldn't even know where to start if I had to port all of my code changes over to TGEA. So, for now I am pretty content with TGE + Modernization Kit. Though, TGEA has noticeable performance enhancements that do a great job of keeping me jealous. Whenever I can afford the extra dough for TGEA, I may convert to the shiny side, but I am a bit worried about the learning curve coming over from TGE. We shall see.
#3
I have worked with TGEA previously and it was a nice experience at that time (even with version 1.1). I thing TGEA has improved a lot since that time but there are issues that remains (watercraft is the first thing that comes to my mind). Also, even when TGEA now runs in almost any platform, there are some video cards that wont handle shaders at all or may show artifacts while doing so. I.E. the laptop I use to develop Warscale is a Dell Latitude D530 with a lame Intel GMA video card. It displays a lot of artifacts when trying to run the TGEA samples so switching to TGEA is a no no at this time. TGE works its purpose to cover all platforms with no problems at all.
Of course my world domination plans includes porting the game to TGEA and all the other Torque engines after this version is finished.
I'm not requesting GG to keep the engine alive forever. This engine has served its time and its understandable if they want to bury it. I just would love to see a final update cleaning the last things up and an official announcement putting the last nail in the coffin so we can stop waiting for movement.
Anyway, with the energy GG is devouting to TGEA I really expect to see wonderful things soon.
Luck!
Guimo
09/22/2008 (6:16 pm)
Hi Jaimi,I have worked with TGEA previously and it was a nice experience at that time (even with version 1.1). I thing TGEA has improved a lot since that time but there are issues that remains (watercraft is the first thing that comes to my mind). Also, even when TGEA now runs in almost any platform, there are some video cards that wont handle shaders at all or may show artifacts while doing so. I.E. the laptop I use to develop Warscale is a Dell Latitude D530 with a lame Intel GMA video card. It displays a lot of artifacts when trying to run the TGEA samples so switching to TGEA is a no no at this time. TGE works its purpose to cover all platforms with no problems at all.
Of course my world domination plans includes porting the game to TGEA and all the other Torque engines after this version is finished.
I'm not requesting GG to keep the engine alive forever. This engine has served its time and its understandable if they want to bury it. I just would love to see a final update cleaning the last things up and an official announcement putting the last nail in the coffin so we can stop waiting for movement.
Anyway, with the energy GG is devouting to TGEA I really expect to see wonderful things soon.
Luck!
Guimo
#4
In fact, the primary testbeds for TGEA 1.7 development was porting all of our old TGE projects (starter.fps, demo, etc) over to TGEA 1.7. We also spent quite a while writing up a nice document to help you with the script and C++ changes.
Once TGEA 1.8 goes out, the only real reason to continue to use TGE for new projects (by all means stay on it if you have a project already under way), is because it handles extreme low end hardware better than TGEA probably ever will (we have to make some compatibility sacrifices to make the newer stuff even work).
The reality of the situation is that we have a lot of very good engines on our plate (TGE, TGEA, TGB, TorqueX, and future stuff we aren't ready to talk about). TGE already does what it is aimed at really well: serving low end hardware at a low cost. With limited resources we have to focus on the engines/platforms that we think have the most long term growth potential. That doesn't mean that we are abandoning TGE or that we don't like it as a platform. It just means that we have to spend most of our resources elsewhere.
09/22/2008 (6:19 pm)
One of the main things I was going for with TGEA 1.7 is that it would be fairly trivial to switch from TGE to TGEA as far as your assets/missions/artwork goes. DTS files have always "just worked", I automated conversion of your terrain files, and I made it so that you don't have to futz with Materials if you aren't worried about using new features (like normal maps). I also spent a lot of time making sure that *most* of the features of TGE are matched or exceeded in TGEA. The only artwork you'll have to touch is re-exporting your DIF's (there was a version problem that makes this not work all that well automatically).In fact, the primary testbeds for TGEA 1.7 development was porting all of our old TGE projects (starter.fps, demo, etc) over to TGEA 1.7. We also spent quite a while writing up a nice document to help you with the script and C++ changes.
Once TGEA 1.8 goes out, the only real reason to continue to use TGE for new projects (by all means stay on it if you have a project already under way), is because it handles extreme low end hardware better than TGEA probably ever will (we have to make some compatibility sacrifices to make the newer stuff even work).
The reality of the situation is that we have a lot of very good engines on our plate (TGE, TGEA, TGB, TorqueX, and future stuff we aren't ready to talk about). TGE already does what it is aimed at really well: serving low end hardware at a low cost. With limited resources we have to focus on the engines/platforms that we think have the most long term growth potential. That doesn't mean that we are abandoning TGE or that we don't like it as a platform. It just means that we have to spend most of our resources elsewhere.
#5
What are the "last things" that need taking care of in TGE?
09/22/2008 (6:24 pm)
Quote:
I just would love to see a final update cleaning the last things up
What are the "last things" that need taking care of in TGE?
#6
As far as the other engines getting attention, keep in mind that during IRC Hour we are all ears. IRC Hour is getting the attention of other employees, so that's a good time to jump in and voice concerns/suggestions about TGE.
Look forward to the next Warscale update!
09/22/2008 (6:51 pm)
@Guimo - Haven't read an update from you in a while, so I'm glad this showed up before I went into withdrawal =). Where's the latest Dire Bear screenshot!?!?As far as the other engines getting attention, keep in mind that during IRC Hour we are all ears. IRC Hour is getting the attention of other employees, so that's a good time to jump in and voice concerns/suggestions about TGE.
Look forward to the next Warscale update!
#7
Sorry to say this but your question is just a proof that you are not looking for improvements in TGE.
If your objective is letting the engine slowly pass, then TGE doesnt need any updates. Otherwise, there are lots of awesome resources available which have the right to be made part of the engine (i.e. mesh hiding? improved load times?). And even if you refuse to take the user contributions, the GUI code can use some updates. The editors can be made more friendly. Code can be cleaned up.
In short... you recommend people to use TGEA because its cleaner... then why not improve TGE code the same way?
Of course if TGEA 1.8 is able to handle all the artifacts with all video cards like the one in my laptop then moving to TGEA is a must. But I really dont think all those small netbooks which are now becoming extremely popular will have a better graphics solution than the Intel GMA. And being designed to access the internet in the go, the users will also want to play on the internet. TGE is the obvious choice there if TGEA isnt able to handle the small chips.
@Michael
Where may I find the IRC time table? It may be hard to asisst as the Australian time is a little out of sync with the US by 14 hours but I will try to.
And thand for asking for the bears... they have just finished eating the orcs and are suspiciously looking to the humans :)
09/22/2008 (7:23 pm)
@MattSorry to say this but your question is just a proof that you are not looking for improvements in TGE.
If your objective is letting the engine slowly pass, then TGE doesnt need any updates. Otherwise, there are lots of awesome resources available which have the right to be made part of the engine (i.e. mesh hiding? improved load times?). And even if you refuse to take the user contributions, the GUI code can use some updates. The editors can be made more friendly. Code can be cleaned up.
In short... you recommend people to use TGEA because its cleaner... then why not improve TGE code the same way?
Of course if TGEA 1.8 is able to handle all the artifacts with all video cards like the one in my laptop then moving to TGEA is a must. But I really dont think all those small netbooks which are now becoming extremely popular will have a better graphics solution than the Intel GMA. And being designed to access the internet in the go, the users will also want to play on the internet. TGE is the obvious choice there if TGEA isnt able to handle the small chips.
@Michael
Where may I find the IRC time table? It may be hard to asisst as the Australian time is a little out of sync with the US by 14 hours but I will try to.
And thand for asking for the bears... they have just finished eating the orcs and are suspiciously looking to the humans :)
#8
09/22/2008 (7:50 pm)
I agree with Guimo, in part and Jaime in part. When we see all the current resources (rts, tankpack, and the dozen other packs caught up with TGEa, then getting rid of TGE might be a good idea. But i think that alot of those resources need to be brought up to speed as it is. What id like to see is more code packs for either one. Other then the Yack Pack, the AFX kit, have you seen many TGEa compatible code packs. Admittingly lots of resources. But i have seen a few items that would be great cleaned up. 
#9
@Guimo - TGEA is for newer hardware... TGE is for more modest hardware... thats the way it is. GG isn't exactly running blind here... they *do* see the site traffic and sales.
You don't see Epic improving the Unreal2 engine... you don't see Id improving the Quake3 engine.
Windows for Workgroups doesn't support Multicore CPUs... should Microsoft get back to work on that too?
Why would you expect GG to spend manpower on updates to a stable 10 year old engine at this point?
Sorry if i come off as harsh... but what your arguing is a waste of effort.
09/22/2008 (8:22 pm)
First off... all this talk of GG getting rid of TGE is silly... did i miss a press release? TGE is still useful and sells.@Guimo - TGEA is for newer hardware... TGE is for more modest hardware... thats the way it is. GG isn't exactly running blind here... they *do* see the site traffic and sales.
You don't see Epic improving the Unreal2 engine... you don't see Id improving the Quake3 engine.
Windows for Workgroups doesn't support Multicore CPUs... should Microsoft get back to work on that too?
Why would you expect GG to spend manpower on updates to a stable 10 year old engine at this point?
Sorry if i come off as harsh... but what your arguing is a waste of effort.
#10
ID or Epic or Microsoft doesnt need to update their old engines because its not a profitable business for them. Their main business lies on their latest generation of software. Of course they may support older engines or OSs but its not relevant at all on their business model.
On the other hand, your comment tells that GG still relies on the income from TGE and of course that depends on the user satisfaction on TGE. Then, if TGE is still an important cornerstone of the GG operation then my question on why does TGE hasnt been updated is still valid.
Of course this may raise some interesting subjects. If you agree that TGE is important to GG then you should agree that it may benefit from some updates. If you say TGE wont get new updates then we may consider the subject terminated and we can let TGE (as a software) rest in peace (or in bytes).
Finally, sorry if my question is hairy but I really dont think I have insulted or shouted to anybody. I havent presented any fanatical argument or made unreasonable requests (except requesting any comment on the subject). I have just expressed a valid opinion. I'm not arguing anything and people are free to comment on this freely on their free time and not wasting any manpower. So, I must say I consider your comment harsh but completely expected so I dont feel offended except for the undeserved lower rating.
Luck!
Guimo
09/22/2008 (9:04 pm)
Hi Tom,ID or Epic or Microsoft doesnt need to update their old engines because its not a profitable business for them. Their main business lies on their latest generation of software. Of course they may support older engines or OSs but its not relevant at all on their business model.
On the other hand, your comment tells that GG still relies on the income from TGE and of course that depends on the user satisfaction on TGE. Then, if TGE is still an important cornerstone of the GG operation then my question on why does TGE hasnt been updated is still valid.
Of course this may raise some interesting subjects. If you agree that TGE is important to GG then you should agree that it may benefit from some updates. If you say TGE wont get new updates then we may consider the subject terminated and we can let TGE (as a software) rest in peace (or in bytes).
Finally, sorry if my question is hairy but I really dont think I have insulted or shouted to anybody. I havent presented any fanatical argument or made unreasonable requests (except requesting any comment on the subject). I have just expressed a valid opinion. I'm not arguing anything and people are free to comment on this freely on their free time and not wasting any manpower. So, I must say I consider your comment harsh but completely expected so I dont feel offended except for the undeserved lower rating.
Luck!
Guimo
#11
09/22/2008 (11:44 pm)
Rating updated.
#12
We have an internal list of the improvements, bug fixes, and "last things" that we'd like to see done with TGE but right now it is a lower priority than some of the other projects we have in the pipe.
I asked to hear your list of "last things" not out of disinterest but rather because I was curious if there was anything that we hadn't thought of when we were considering the priority of the project here at GG.
I was hoping to engage in an open discussion with the community about the features they'd like to see in TGE and Torque in general and perhaps provide honest feedback on the cost of the investment to see those features through and the expected return. I did this before when someone proposed a similar list for TGEA and it seemed to be pretty well received.
One thing you have to consider is that even doing the bare bones integration of some of the more popular resources and bug fixes plus the time to do builds, QA passes, marketing, and possibly run a Beta takes more time than you might realize. Time that could be spent elsewhere (like making TGEA run better on Intel integrated chipsets). That doesn't even touch on the fact that even the best resources have their flaws and take time to make general enough for everyone to use (a lot don't use networking correctly for example...like the Advanced Camera).
09/23/2008 (12:08 am)
While GG is driven by a lot of noble intentions we do still have to pay our salaries and keep the lights on at the end of the day. As a business, we have to factor in our return on investment when prioritizing projects.We have an internal list of the improvements, bug fixes, and "last things" that we'd like to see done with TGE but right now it is a lower priority than some of the other projects we have in the pipe.
I asked to hear your list of "last things" not out of disinterest but rather because I was curious if there was anything that we hadn't thought of when we were considering the priority of the project here at GG.
I was hoping to engage in an open discussion with the community about the features they'd like to see in TGE and Torque in general and perhaps provide honest feedback on the cost of the investment to see those features through and the expected return. I did this before when someone proposed a similar list for TGEA and it seemed to be pretty well received.
One thing you have to consider is that even doing the bare bones integration of some of the more popular resources and bug fixes plus the time to do builds, QA passes, marketing, and possibly run a Beta takes more time than you might realize. Time that could be spent elsewhere (like making TGEA run better on Intel integrated chipsets). That doesn't even touch on the fact that even the best resources have their flaws and take time to make general enough for everyone to use (a lot don't use networking correctly for example...like the Advanced Camera).
#13
TGE isn't a dead product. We have some longer term plans for TGE that I think you guys will really like =) However, right now it is a lower priority than some of our other projects so it isn't getting as many resources.
From our perspective, TGE is still doing quite well in its current form. It is fast, robust, flexible and doing a good job in its target audience.
09/23/2008 (12:14 am)
Just to make something clear:TGE isn't a dead product. We have some longer term plans for TGE that I think you guys will really like =) However, right now it is a lower priority than some of our other projects so it isn't getting as many resources.
From our perspective, TGE is still doing quite well in its current form. It is fast, robust, flexible and doing a good job in its target audience.
#14
That's the kind of answer I wanted to hear. Thank you very much for sharing a glimpse of the development plan for TGE and I hope you open this kind of discussion in time. There are lots of things that may be enhaced on the client side and doesnt even require to touch the networking code. Good luck with the development of TGEA 1.8!
@Tom
I only wish the ratings would have lower numbers so you may feel better low ranking this post.
Sorry for any inconvenience.
Luck to all!
Guimo
09/23/2008 (6:56 am)
@MattThat's the kind of answer I wanted to hear. Thank you very much for sharing a glimpse of the development plan for TGE and I hope you open this kind of discussion in time. There are lots of things that may be enhaced on the client side and doesnt even require to touch the networking code. Good luck with the development of TGEA 1.8!
@Tom
I only wish the ratings would have lower numbers so you may feel better low ranking this post.
Sorry for any inconvenience.
Luck to all!
Guimo
Associate Jaimi McEntire
King of Flapjacks
About TGE/TGEA though, I disagree a bit- why have two engines? Now that both are cross platform, why bother? Any game you could make in TGE, you could make in TGEA, and you could make it better - and it would be faster. Most of those resources are for older versions of TGE anyway, and are just as compatible with TGEA as they are with the current TGE (meaning, completely or not at all, depending on the resource).
Come over to TGEA. It's great over here!