Torque X and Microsoft
by Pat Wilson · 08/14/2006 (10:27 am) · 26 comments
I wanted to post a quick blog post to address some of the things I've seen come up in the forums. Besides, I haven't done a GG blog post in a while.
Our working closely with Microsoft on this project does not mean that we have any intention of dropping cross platform support, reducing cross platform support or anything like that. I know this has been said before. I wanted to say it again. XNA is another platform. It turns out that it's a very important platform. I've had some things to say about C# in the past, and I honestly still prefer C++. However, like I said in a thread recently, there comes a point when thebenefits of a technology outweigh it's costs, and it must be considered seriously otherwise it's just elitism. (I will be the first to admit I suffer from elitism.)
I said this to the associates a while back, and I wanted to say this to the community:
There will be things about this platform that you may not like. Such as: Why should I have to move my code to a new engine, why C#, why we gotta pay money etc, etc. The most important thing about XNA is the concept, and it's goal: Let indies make console games without dev kits. It is critical to this goal which we all share (making games, and further, making games on consoles) that this effort succeed, and I have no doubt in my mind that it will. The best way that we, as developers (and I speak for myself as well, because I fully intend to use XNA even though there is a dev kit sitting on my desk. We eat our own dog food.) can do to try to get our agenda pushed forward is to help this project succeed.
People have asked questions like: Well is this going to be like the PS2 Linux kit where the only people who can play it are other developers? Will we be able to make money off our games or will they only be free? and so on...
Well there's your answer! Help this project be a success. You can use TorqueX, you can write your engine from scratch, whatever. The important thing, again, is the concept. If you want to see more support for XNA on the 360, than help make it so. Make games. Make the game that Microsoft says, "Damn if people are going to keep doing that, we need to let them sell their games!" or, "We need to make it so people can share games ASAP!"
Microsoft is committed to making XNA a success. GarageGames is committed to making XNA a success. So I am asking the community to help out as well.
Our working closely with Microsoft on this project does not mean that we have any intention of dropping cross platform support, reducing cross platform support or anything like that. I know this has been said before. I wanted to say it again. XNA is another platform. It turns out that it's a very important platform. I've had some things to say about C# in the past, and I honestly still prefer C++. However, like I said in a thread recently, there comes a point when thebenefits of a technology outweigh it's costs, and it must be considered seriously otherwise it's just elitism. (I will be the first to admit I suffer from elitism.)
I said this to the associates a while back, and I wanted to say this to the community:
There will be things about this platform that you may not like. Such as: Why should I have to move my code to a new engine, why C#, why we gotta pay money etc, etc. The most important thing about XNA is the concept, and it's goal: Let indies make console games without dev kits. It is critical to this goal which we all share (making games, and further, making games on consoles) that this effort succeed, and I have no doubt in my mind that it will. The best way that we, as developers (and I speak for myself as well, because I fully intend to use XNA even though there is a dev kit sitting on my desk. We eat our own dog food.) can do to try to get our agenda pushed forward is to help this project succeed.
People have asked questions like: Well is this going to be like the PS2 Linux kit where the only people who can play it are other developers? Will we be able to make money off our games or will they only be free? and so on...
Well there's your answer! Help this project be a success. You can use TorqueX, you can write your engine from scratch, whatever. The important thing, again, is the concept. If you want to see more support for XNA on the 360, than help make it so. Make games. Make the game that Microsoft says, "Damn if people are going to keep doing that, we need to let them sell their games!" or, "We need to make it so people can share games ASAP!"
Microsoft is committed to making XNA a success. GarageGames is committed to making XNA a success. So I am asking the community to help out as well.
About the author
#3
08/14/2006 (10:36 am)
Great, thanks Pat for that blog. Good read.
#4
/me opens up his wallet...
seriously though quite teasing us. i have been reading the random thread about torque.net or C# for torque script, seen all the posts about XNA (especially started today) read every news site make the same XNA report (again today) and now a fantastic blog that has me excited but says very little in terms of Tech Specs :(
Will it be coming august 30th? or later?
Is it tge 1.5 that we have heard about?
will this affect TSE? (one of the things i read said TSE and TGB/T2D had been ported but said nothing about TGE)
who do i have to sleep with to get in on it early?
**EDIT** the DevSnapshot just went up so i get it now (well half get it)
08/14/2006 (10:45 am)
So how do i get this TorqueX? /me opens up his wallet...
seriously though quite teasing us. i have been reading the random thread about torque.net or C# for torque script, seen all the posts about XNA (especially started today) read every news site make the same XNA report (again today) and now a fantastic blog that has me excited but says very little in terms of Tech Specs :(
Will it be coming august 30th? or later?
Is it tge 1.5 that we have heard about?
will this affect TSE? (one of the things i read said TSE and TGB/T2D had been ported but said nothing about TGE)
who do i have to sleep with to get in on it early?
**EDIT** the DevSnapshot just went up so i get it now (well half get it)
#5
The other cool thing is the exposure it brings to GG. I can't wait to see what people do with this.
Also, I think I read somewhere on the USA today article that somewhere down the line people would be able to sell there games on Live.
Oh, and when did Josh become CEO?
EDIT:
for those interested in learning a little bit more about XNA you can watch the videos at this link:
http://www.microsoft.com/XNA/March2006DVD-WebVersion/DVD.aspx
08/14/2006 (10:51 am)
I am really glad to hear this. Some people might not even begin to realize how much money it costs to get a dev kit.The other cool thing is the exposure it brings to GG. I can't wait to see what people do with this.
Also, I think I read somewhere on the USA today article that somewhere down the line people would be able to sell there games on Live.
Oh, and when did Josh become CEO?
EDIT:
for those interested in learning a little bit more about XNA you can watch the videos at this link:
http://www.microsoft.com/XNA/March2006DVD-WebVersion/DVD.aspx
#6
08/14/2006 (11:34 am)
This is really exciting news guys! Will there possibly be some type of EA version of this released at the end of the month to coincide, with xna studio express beta? 
#7
08/14/2006 (1:19 pm)
BTW, you CAN use C++ for XNA ;) ...or any .net lang. it's just a c# marketing thing against java...
#8
08/14/2006 (1:30 pm)
I get the feeling that TGE wont be included in this project, only TSE and TGB.
#9
08/14/2006 (1:32 pm)
well I'm still in the dark when it comes to XNA and managed code in general. As long as I can still use torquescript, this seems like good news to me. :)
#10
The way XNA has wrapped DirectX puts the burden for supporting these features on Microsoft, instead of on the end-user. Having C++ and not being able to have low-level access to features would, in my opinion, take away from the advantages of C++. We have achieved a very high level of performance with C# and TorqueX due to some very good research and smart implementation by the XNA team. Object pooling to reduce churn, lots of profiling using a sweet-ass tool called JetBrains dot Trace helped us greatly in the quest for good performance.
The other great thing about C# wrapping functionality, and using the XNA classes (Like the matrix/vector classes) is that, on the 360, they will be able to do even more optimization for the Xbox360 CPU to speed these up even faster. Using a debug build of the beta framework, we were able to get 60fps running the Marble Blast Ultra demo (screenshots in the TorqueX product page) with all the shiny features of MBU and the level was made in Maya, and collision was done using polysoup instead of convex hulls. The performance is really quite impressive, I have to say. I was very pleased.
08/14/2006 (1:55 pm)
You can not use managed C++ for XNA on the 360 right now. This is good and bad. The good thing is that, for the 360, there are things about the version of DirectX that are different (and possibly NDA so I am going to err on the side of caution and not discuss them) which have no PC equivilant, and can be very confusing, especially for the new user. The way XNA has wrapped DirectX puts the burden for supporting these features on Microsoft, instead of on the end-user. Having C++ and not being able to have low-level access to features would, in my opinion, take away from the advantages of C++. We have achieved a very high level of performance with C# and TorqueX due to some very good research and smart implementation by the XNA team. Object pooling to reduce churn, lots of profiling using a sweet-ass tool called JetBrains dot Trace helped us greatly in the quest for good performance.
The other great thing about C# wrapping functionality, and using the XNA classes (Like the matrix/vector classes) is that, on the 360, they will be able to do even more optimization for the Xbox360 CPU to speed these up even faster. Using a debug build of the beta framework, we were able to get 60fps running the Marble Blast Ultra demo (screenshots in the TorqueX product page) with all the shiny features of MBU and the level was made in Maya, and collision was done using polysoup instead of convex hulls. The performance is really quite impressive, I have to say. I was very pleased.
#11
@Pat - Nice blog, im sure a lot of people are going to love this, I certainly will
08/14/2006 (1:55 pm)
@ Allyn - Quote:You might ask, "Torque? Does that mean Torque Game Builder,Torque Game Engine, or Torque Shader Engine?" The answer is some of each.
@Pat - Nice blog, im sure a lot of people are going to love this, I certainly will
#12
08/14/2006 (2:14 pm)
Yeah, the funniest thing about the speed issue is... it's the XBOX 360!! I mean, come on, that puppy is faster than any of our computers at home anyway. So what if I lose 20% speed, what does that compare to not having to make the game for computers with speed ranges that spreed far longer than 20% on PCs. I am dancing right now in excitement. I will happily trade getting a game on the 360 now for the fact that in 3 years it might be considered slow. 
#13
This is true. And hopefully there will be something worth playing on it. Right now XBLA is about the only thing I'm enjoying (well, I have a soft spot for Kameo and Dead Rising; and DR's escort missions are wearing thin).
I do love the idea of opening this platform up, though. I can't wait to see what people come up with. Perhaps I'll see your adventure game on there sometime in the future. ;)
08/14/2006 (4:54 pm)
@AntonThis is true. And hopefully there will be something worth playing on it. Right now XBLA is about the only thing I'm enjoying (well, I have a soft spot for Kameo and Dead Rising; and DR's escort missions are wearing thin).
I do love the idea of opening this platform up, though. I can't wait to see what people come up with. Perhaps I'll see your adventure game on there sometime in the future. ;)
#14
08/14/2006 (6:48 pm)
I'm on XNA like white on rice!
#15
Oh, yeah, it's definitely coming the the 360. No questions about that. I am moving our game to a C# engine for PC right now using MDX 1.1, which isn't ideal but is all we have for now, but as soon as even the Express releases for XNA we will be porting it. I hope to be able to release a demo of the game on the 360 thru the Creator's Club when we release this game in Novemeber for the PC. Be one of the first to be releasing anything on there. ;) And then when the commercial version releases for XNA in 2007 we will be poised for releasing an entire game thru XBLA 360. That's my plan at least.
This is a damn exciting time for indie game developers. Even our company has been jumping thru all the hoops to get the dev kit. We would have to make 2 versions of the game, one for PC and one for XBLA 360, but now we can code the game in C# with MDX 1.1 and later port to XNA. But the core coding of the game is already in C# and only small portions really need changed. And that is just awesome! And when commercial releases, we won't be looking back. This is the 3rd in the series and the story keeps going already thru to 4,5 and 6. We are a perfect match for games made in XNA and releasing on XBLA 360.
08/14/2006 (6:52 pm)
@David BlakeOh, yeah, it's definitely coming the the 360. No questions about that. I am moving our game to a C# engine for PC right now using MDX 1.1, which isn't ideal but is all we have for now, but as soon as even the Express releases for XNA we will be porting it. I hope to be able to release a demo of the game on the 360 thru the Creator's Club when we release this game in Novemeber for the PC. Be one of the first to be releasing anything on there. ;) And then when the commercial version releases for XNA in 2007 we will be poised for releasing an entire game thru XBLA 360. That's my plan at least.
This is a damn exciting time for indie game developers. Even our company has been jumping thru all the hoops to get the dev kit. We would have to make 2 versions of the game, one for PC and one for XBLA 360, but now we can code the game in C# with MDX 1.1 and later port to XNA. But the core coding of the game is already in C# and only small portions really need changed. And that is just awesome! And when commercial releases, we won't be looking back. This is the 3rd in the series and the story keeps going already thru to 4,5 and 6. We are a perfect match for games made in XNA and releasing on XBLA 360.
#16
XNA Game Studio Express Beta 1
XNA Game Studio Express is a new offering targeted at students and hobbyists for game development.
XNA Game Studio Express Beta 1 will contain the following:
-A version of the XNA Framework targeting Windows development only.
- Documentation, how-to and kits that demonstrate how best to utilize the XNA Framework.
- Fully documented and playable starter-kits that demonstrate end-to-end how to build a game using the XNA Framework.
Beta 1 will be available in late August/early September.
08/14/2006 (8:45 pm)
I went to Microsoft Connect, just a while back due to an article talking about XNA Game Studio Express going for $99. I just wanted to post what they posted in Microsoft Connect:XNA Game Studio Express Beta 1
XNA Game Studio Express is a new offering targeted at students and hobbyists for game development.
XNA Game Studio Express Beta 1 will contain the following:
-A version of the XNA Framework targeting Windows development only.
- Documentation, how-to and kits that demonstrate how best to utilize the XNA Framework.
- Fully documented and playable starter-kits that demonstrate end-to-end how to build a game using the XNA Framework.
Beta 1 will be available in late August/early September.
#17
08/14/2006 (9:24 pm)
Pretty speachless right now, everything is coming together. 
#18
08/14/2006 (11:39 pm)
I see. Speechless is definitely a good word here.
#19
Sweet, I loved the screenshot you showed off the other night, and being an adventure game junkie, I can't wait to pick it up through XNA connect!
08/15/2006 (6:55 am)
@AntonSweet, I loved the screenshot you showed off the other night, and being an adventure game junkie, I can't wait to pick it up through XNA connect!
#20
08/15/2006 (10:23 am)
So the TSE360 will be included in the TorqueX product right? 
Torque 3D Owner Adam
Adam deGrandis