Artist and level designers
by Paul Yoskowitz · in Torque 3D Professional · 11/03/2014 (4:32 am) · 141 replies
Where do you feel that T3D is falling down as far as things for the artist and level designers?
This isn't about the latest DX/OGL or anything like that. What tools are missing compared to other engines out there right now that you feel would breathe new life into T3D-MIT and make development easier for you?
This is the list so far of issues or things that need added:
*Interior/structure designer like Constructor
*Prefab object that combines models and scripts
*Improve forest editor
*Beefing up the sketch tool
*Beef up the material editor
*Fix the Shadow system
*Jitter in terrain system between terrain and models
*Add weather system
*Better snapping system
*Better Zip file functionality
*Re-add terrain erosion
*Add terrain specular, and if needs be, remove parallax from the terrain pass to make way for it, but retain parallax for shapes.
*Add the ability to set a kind of 'alpha mask' for the terrain tools, so you can set the strength & shape of the tools a bit more specifically.
*Add more flexibility in the noise tool again, maybe being able to set a tiled heightmap mask to it so you can again control the behaviour of it better depending on design requirements.
*Water... although i havent played around with it in recent builds, and it may have been changed since i have used it properly, the settings for water could really be simplified down to make it more user friendly, alot of the settings are awkwardly named considering their effects on the water blocks.
*A basic precipitation and particle library
*Add split screen "view ports"
*Better terrain materials manager
*Add a semi "auto-zone" widget kinda thing. for example selecting a building shape, and at click of a button, create a "zone" item matching its bounds etc.
*Ground Cover needs collision support
*Add terrain layer sensitivity to the forest
*Improve character import
*Add more keyboard shortcuts and show on the menu
*Light bleeding through the seems
*Possibly change the ground cover and forest editor to be 2 more generalized editors
*when standing outside of a zone, particles and lights are visible that are created inside of it. the only way that they should be visible is by looking inside the zone through a portal.
*Occlusion Volume. It should have a switch that allows it to effect the terrain behind it or not. As it stands, it causes the terrain to disappear behind it, which u dont always want.
*More 3D imports
*Artist friendly - add sliders along w numbers input
*SKYBOX and SCATTER SKY should work together somehow
*Better animation blending
This isn't about the latest DX/OGL or anything like that. What tools are missing compared to other engines out there right now that you feel would breathe new life into T3D-MIT and make development easier for you?
This is the list so far of issues or things that need added:
*Interior/structure designer like Constructor
*Prefab object that combines models and scripts
*Improve forest editor
*Beefing up the sketch tool
*Beef up the material editor
*Fix the Shadow system
*Jitter in terrain system between terrain and models
*Add weather system
*Better snapping system
*Better Zip file functionality
*Re-add terrain erosion
*Add terrain specular, and if needs be, remove parallax from the terrain pass to make way for it, but retain parallax for shapes.
*Add the ability to set a kind of 'alpha mask' for the terrain tools, so you can set the strength & shape of the tools a bit more specifically.
*Add more flexibility in the noise tool again, maybe being able to set a tiled heightmap mask to it so you can again control the behaviour of it better depending on design requirements.
*Water... although i havent played around with it in recent builds, and it may have been changed since i have used it properly, the settings for water could really be simplified down to make it more user friendly, alot of the settings are awkwardly named considering their effects on the water blocks.
*A basic precipitation and particle library
*Add split screen "view ports"
*Better terrain materials manager
*Add a semi "auto-zone" widget kinda thing. for example selecting a building shape, and at click of a button, create a "zone" item matching its bounds etc.
*Ground Cover needs collision support
*Add terrain layer sensitivity to the forest
*Improve character import
*Add more keyboard shortcuts and show on the menu
*Light bleeding through the seems
*Possibly change the ground cover and forest editor to be 2 more generalized editors
*when standing outside of a zone, particles and lights are visible that are created inside of it. the only way that they should be visible is by looking inside the zone through a portal.
*Occlusion Volume. It should have a switch that allows it to effect the terrain behind it or not. As it stands, it causes the terrain to disappear behind it, which u dont always want.
*More 3D imports
*Artist friendly - add sliders along w numbers input
*SKYBOX and SCATTER SKY should work together somehow
*Better animation blending
About the author
http://winterleafentertainment.com/
#122
More/better animation control for Players in particular would be great. I did some work on that back in TGE - basically moved the action animation table out of source and into script. However, you'd also want editor support for that, which might have to be built into the shape editor I guess. Or even have a dedicated editor mode, where you can test out the animations on a shape you control, like Mixamo's interface.
11/25/2014 (3:52 pm)
Given the direction of recent discussions, I think I'll be dedicating a lot more time to learning the editor scripts in detail and making some improvements there. For example, Olexiy's issue when creating ShapeBaseImage datablocks is still unresolved, as well as the crash that was reported when editing vehicle datablocks.More/better animation control for Players in particular would be great. I did some work on that back in TGE - basically moved the action animation table out of source and into script. However, you'd also want editor support for that, which might have to be built into the shape editor I guess. Or even have a dedicated editor mode, where you can test out the animations on a shape you control, like Mixamo's interface.
#123
I want both. I want fbx support because I use Lightwave 3D to import fbx files and customize them and then export them as fbx files. I do that because fbx files often have less errors(fbx sees better support) than with collada. At least that is my experience the last three years. I want a better tool to tweak and combine animations in the editor.
With fbx support I would not need to convert art files from like say Unity store into collada. Those conversions works sometimes and other times it is really a nightmare to behold(especially animated files). With UE4's and Lightwave's strong fbx support that issue has disappeared.
The videos from 16 to 22 shows you a game engine that can take fbx files(yes it convert them internally to its own format but we do not need to think about that as an artist or animator), tweak them with ease and speed up the work process.
In an Eggshell( I do not like nuts :O) ) I want both so it has everything to do with fbx support ;O)
@Daniel
Yes when I say the editor I actually mean that the shape editor could use an overhaul and some more features like we see in those videos.
I would find it cool to see more clicks and drag and drop features.
Let us say I want to add two animations together in one combination. I would be awesome to be able to simply click on an animation file and then drag that into a window with another one and then see them combined. More drag and drops, more visual in real time windows.
That would be a wonderful addition to a fine piece of tech.
Anyway the questions was:
I feel that T3D is falling down on the lack of fbx support and a weak animation control for players in general.
I also find that other engines come with a lot of drag and drop material and texture support while in T3D I often find that I need to manually script it as the material and terrain editor often crashes when using the point and click features.
I guess that is what I have to add in this thread. Hope it helps out.
11/25/2014 (10:25 pm)
No @Andrew and @JeffI want both. I want fbx support because I use Lightwave 3D to import fbx files and customize them and then export them as fbx files. I do that because fbx files often have less errors(fbx sees better support) than with collada. At least that is my experience the last three years. I want a better tool to tweak and combine animations in the editor.
With fbx support I would not need to convert art files from like say Unity store into collada. Those conversions works sometimes and other times it is really a nightmare to behold(especially animated files). With UE4's and Lightwave's strong fbx support that issue has disappeared.
The videos from 16 to 22 shows you a game engine that can take fbx files(yes it convert them internally to its own format but we do not need to think about that as an artist or animator), tweak them with ease and speed up the work process.
In an Eggshell( I do not like nuts :O) ) I want both so it has everything to do with fbx support ;O)
@Daniel
Yes when I say the editor I actually mean that the shape editor could use an overhaul and some more features like we see in those videos.
I would find it cool to see more clicks and drag and drop features.
Let us say I want to add two animations together in one combination. I would be awesome to be able to simply click on an animation file and then drag that into a window with another one and then see them combined. More drag and drops, more visual in real time windows.
Quote:Or even have a dedicated editor mode, where you can test out the animations on a shape you control, like Mixamo's interface.
That would be a wonderful addition to a fine piece of tech.
Anyway the questions was:
Quote:Where do you feel that T3D is falling down as far as things for the artist and level designers?
I feel that T3D is falling down on the lack of fbx support and a weak animation control for players in general.
I also find that other engines come with a lot of drag and drop material and texture support while in T3D I often find that I need to manually script it as the material and terrain editor often crashes when using the point and click features.
I guess that is what I have to add in this thread. Hope it helps out.
#124
SC - what do we need to do to start writing these up? where do they go? what kind of info are you looking for?
11/26/2014 (11:37 pm)
ok, so we have a list of items so far.... SC - what do we need to do to start writing these up? where do they go? what kind of info are you looking for?
#125
From there, I guess we can have discussions about specific features, whittle down requirements till we get some solid actionable ideas, and start implementing. We can maybe even assign them to version milestones.
11/27/2014 (1:58 am)
Well, this sounds like exactly the kind of thing the 'community projects' page on the wiki is for. I think we should put them there, and flesh out the descriptions from what people have written here, then we can decide which items are priority, and who can work on them.From there, I guess we can have discussions about specific features, whittle down requirements till we get some solid actionable ideas, and start implementing. We can maybe even assign them to version milestones.
#126
11/27/2014 (2:08 am)
link plz and ill start filling it up :)
#127
http://torque3d.wikidot.com/community:projects
so are u just wanting me to put in the titles? some of these only have a few lines on them... or how much filling out u want?
11/27/2014 (2:39 am)
Az helpedhttp://torque3d.wikidot.com/community:projects
so are u just wanting me to put in the titles? some of these only have a few lines on them... or how much filling out u want?
#128
As much filling out as is useful so someone can start actually thinking about working on one. You don't have to do it all yourself - recruit some other people who care enough ;). Maybe make a table with short description, long description, and volunteers.
11/27/2014 (4:09 am)
Was it that hard to find? It's linked from the homepage :P.As much filling out as is useful so someone can start actually thinking about working on one. You don't have to do it all yourself - recruit some other people who care enough ;). Maybe make a table with short description, long description, and volunteers.
#129
but that looks like stuff already being worked on, not a "wish list"
Would this be a better place?
github.com/garagegames/torque3d/issues
11/27/2014 (5:55 am)
@Buckmasterbut that looks like stuff already being worked on, not a "wish list"
Would this be a better place?
github.com/garagegames/torque3d/issues
#131
http://torque3d.wikidot.com/community:projects
looks like they are already assigned to people and they are actively being worked on
OVERALL, these issues are not assigned and are not being worked on yet. so do they still go there? This is your call.
11/27/2014 (6:16 pm)
ok, u missed my point. that pagehttp://torque3d.wikidot.com/community:projects
looks like they are already assigned to people and they are actively being worked on
OVERALL, these issues are not assigned and are not being worked on yet. so do they still go there? This is your call.
#132
11/27/2014 (6:59 pm)
Right, that's why I recommended the UserVoice forum. The wiki can kind of be whatever we want it to be - for example I have a 'community project' for the GUI pull request shenanigans, which isn't being worked on by any one person yet. Maybe that would do better as a forum thread, for that reason.
#133
Come to think of it, that whole style with the numbers and words integrated in the same element looks much cleaner to me. This shouldn't be too extreme a change to make and might make the editor more pleasurable to use and easier to grok at a glance. EDIT: another example, from Andrew, which is basically exactly what I'd like to see:
11/28/2014 (5:38 pm)
Something I've just noticed - I'd love to see sliders integrated with fields, like this.Come to think of it, that whole style with the numbers and words integrated in the same element looks much cleaner to me. This shouldn't be too extreme a change to make and might make the editor more pleasurable to use and easier to grok at a glance. EDIT: another example, from Andrew, which is basically exactly what I'd like to see:
#134
11/29/2014 (7:08 am)
Daniel I have seen here, the field-sliders as in a blender is very comfortable, I think we need a UI element, and it seems to me that something like this is implemented in a blender is the best of the proposed standard.
#135
Water/Rivers/Hair:
FLOW MAPS!!!! I have not seen this mentioned and its been in other engines for ages. Its something both the river and water tools lack, as well as adding it as anisotropic direction for hair flow on characters. Can also be used for things like lava flow. Here are some writeups if you programmers don't know what I am talking about
www.gdcvault.com/play/1015309/Water-Technology-of (tech stuff starts on page 35)
teckartist.com/?page_id=107 (example free program that outputs flow maps)
UI:
Better Construction tools that can better resize and realign text based on resolution. Including interaction in the 3D scene versus 2D overlay with vector support. Unity just released the source for their NEW (not the old POS) UI system in MIT. This would be a major improvement to integrate if nothing else :
blogs.unity3d.com/2014/11/26/4-6-is-released-with-source-for-ui-system/
bitbucket.org/Unity-Technologies/ui
Terrain:
-Specular support is a must (rain levels).
-Vector Displacement maps? (Would allow undercuts basically).
Material Selector:
-Search button (One base on name that autofills as you type).
Animation:
-Facial Morph tools. (Speaking about for voice and emotion, see Valves Fsceposer developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Faceposer or FaceFX).
-IK solver/blender (think feet on hills - super hard to program but adds so much to the game). gameware.autodesk.com/humanik/features www.root-motion.com/final-ik.html
11/29/2014 (3:05 pm)
Bit late, hope this is still looked at.Water/Rivers/Hair:
FLOW MAPS!!!! I have not seen this mentioned and its been in other engines for ages. Its something both the river and water tools lack, as well as adding it as anisotropic direction for hair flow on characters. Can also be used for things like lava flow. Here are some writeups if you programmers don't know what I am talking about
www.gdcvault.com/play/1015309/Water-Technology-of (tech stuff starts on page 35)
teckartist.com/?page_id=107 (example free program that outputs flow maps)
UI:
Better Construction tools that can better resize and realign text based on resolution. Including interaction in the 3D scene versus 2D overlay with vector support. Unity just released the source for their NEW (not the old POS) UI system in MIT. This would be a major improvement to integrate if nothing else :
blogs.unity3d.com/2014/11/26/4-6-is-released-with-source-for-ui-system/
bitbucket.org/Unity-Technologies/ui
Terrain:
-Specular support is a must (rain levels).
-Vector Displacement maps? (Would allow undercuts basically).
Material Selector:
-Search button (One base on name that autofills as you type).
Animation:
-Facial Morph tools. (Speaking about for voice and emotion, see Valves Fsceposer developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Faceposer or FaceFX).
-IK solver/blender (think feet on hills - super hard to program but adds so much to the game). gameware.autodesk.com/humanik/features www.root-motion.com/final-ik.html
#136
11/29/2014 (4:22 pm)
flowmaps would fall under new tech, not revised present tech for the most part, but going off page 32, tie-in would likely be along the lines of a lookup from a texture sheet to replace github.com/GarageGames/Torque3D/blob/development/Templates/Full/game/shaders/com... for what that's worth.
#138
A Textel Viewmode.
Example: udn.epicgames.com/Three/ViewModes.html#Texture%20Density
Hell many of those viewmodes would be wonderful to have.
11/30/2014 (6:56 pm)
I totally forgot about this, but it would really help alot with making games look consistent.A Textel Viewmode.
Example: udn.epicgames.com/Three/ViewModes.html#Texture%20Density
Hell many of those viewmodes would be wonderful to have.
#139
12/21/2014 (2:47 am)
Another reference for flow maps, with source code. I'd love to give this a crack sometime, if I can manage to wrap my head around how to do it.
#140
garagegames.uservoice.com/forums/178972-torque-3d-mit
12/21/2014 (8:11 am)
ok Id love to add "flow maps" to the wish list but I used all my votes earlier. Daniel, can we change the # of votes u get or can someone else add to it please?garagegames.uservoice.com/forums/178972-torque-3d-mit
Torque Owner Jeff Raab
[ghc]games
As Andrew said, seems less like anything to do with FBX(though FBX support would be a good thing), and more like having better animation control, such as visual editing of animation trees, animation state machines, and better blending functions.