Artist and level designers
by Paul Yoskowitz · in Torque 3D Professional · 11/03/2014 (4:32 am) · 141 replies
Where do you feel that T3D is falling down as far as things for the artist and level designers?
This isn't about the latest DX/OGL or anything like that. What tools are missing compared to other engines out there right now that you feel would breathe new life into T3D-MIT and make development easier for you?
This is the list so far of issues or things that need added:
*Interior/structure designer like Constructor
*Prefab object that combines models and scripts
*Improve forest editor
*Beefing up the sketch tool
*Beef up the material editor
*Fix the Shadow system
*Jitter in terrain system between terrain and models
*Add weather system
*Better snapping system
*Better Zip file functionality
*Re-add terrain erosion
*Add terrain specular, and if needs be, remove parallax from the terrain pass to make way for it, but retain parallax for shapes.
*Add the ability to set a kind of 'alpha mask' for the terrain tools, so you can set the strength & shape of the tools a bit more specifically.
*Add more flexibility in the noise tool again, maybe being able to set a tiled heightmap mask to it so you can again control the behaviour of it better depending on design requirements.
*Water... although i havent played around with it in recent builds, and it may have been changed since i have used it properly, the settings for water could really be simplified down to make it more user friendly, alot of the settings are awkwardly named considering their effects on the water blocks.
*A basic precipitation and particle library
*Add split screen "view ports"
*Better terrain materials manager
*Add a semi "auto-zone" widget kinda thing. for example selecting a building shape, and at click of a button, create a "zone" item matching its bounds etc.
*Ground Cover needs collision support
*Add terrain layer sensitivity to the forest
*Improve character import
*Add more keyboard shortcuts and show on the menu
*Light bleeding through the seems
*Possibly change the ground cover and forest editor to be 2 more generalized editors
*when standing outside of a zone, particles and lights are visible that are created inside of it. the only way that they should be visible is by looking inside the zone through a portal.
*Occlusion Volume. It should have a switch that allows it to effect the terrain behind it or not. As it stands, it causes the terrain to disappear behind it, which u dont always want.
*More 3D imports
*Artist friendly - add sliders along w numbers input
*SKYBOX and SCATTER SKY should work together somehow
*Better animation blending
This isn't about the latest DX/OGL or anything like that. What tools are missing compared to other engines out there right now that you feel would breathe new life into T3D-MIT and make development easier for you?
This is the list so far of issues or things that need added:
*Interior/structure designer like Constructor
*Prefab object that combines models and scripts
*Improve forest editor
*Beefing up the sketch tool
*Beef up the material editor
*Fix the Shadow system
*Jitter in terrain system between terrain and models
*Add weather system
*Better snapping system
*Better Zip file functionality
*Re-add terrain erosion
*Add terrain specular, and if needs be, remove parallax from the terrain pass to make way for it, but retain parallax for shapes.
*Add the ability to set a kind of 'alpha mask' for the terrain tools, so you can set the strength & shape of the tools a bit more specifically.
*Add more flexibility in the noise tool again, maybe being able to set a tiled heightmap mask to it so you can again control the behaviour of it better depending on design requirements.
*Water... although i havent played around with it in recent builds, and it may have been changed since i have used it properly, the settings for water could really be simplified down to make it more user friendly, alot of the settings are awkwardly named considering their effects on the water blocks.
*A basic precipitation and particle library
*Add split screen "view ports"
*Better terrain materials manager
*Add a semi "auto-zone" widget kinda thing. for example selecting a building shape, and at click of a button, create a "zone" item matching its bounds etc.
*Ground Cover needs collision support
*Add terrain layer sensitivity to the forest
*Improve character import
*Add more keyboard shortcuts and show on the menu
*Light bleeding through the seems
*Possibly change the ground cover and forest editor to be 2 more generalized editors
*when standing outside of a zone, particles and lights are visible that are created inside of it. the only way that they should be visible is by looking inside the zone through a portal.
*Occlusion Volume. It should have a switch that allows it to effect the terrain behind it or not. As it stands, it causes the terrain to disappear behind it, which u dont always want.
*More 3D imports
*Artist friendly - add sliders along w numbers input
*SKYBOX and SCATTER SKY should work together somehow
*Better animation blending
About the author
http://winterleafentertainment.com/
#82
How do you define integrated? Speedtree is still a third party tool.
Yes I know people are leaving, because the grass looks greener on the other side, but this all has its price.
Lets assume these people will use unreal which costs $19 per month and the "integrated" speedtree for additional $19 per month and lets say they will play around with it for 3 years, this will cost them $1368 for these tools, just to realize in the end they also have no "make my game button". Ah and before I forgot, you need other tools as well, but luckily they also have cheap subscriptions and in the end you may be paying around $100 per month just to be able to develop with the newest technology.
It will pay off, if you are successfull, but otherwise maybe not and you have spend money and you do not own any software in the end you used or helped to develop.
11/20/2014 (10:36 am)
Yes, forester is not free, but you get it for $30 once which is almost like free, if you compare it to the $5000 you have to pay for speedtree, or at least 19$ subscription per month if you want to use it with unity or unreal.How do you define integrated? Speedtree is still a third party tool.
Yes I know people are leaving, because the grass looks greener on the other side, but this all has its price.
Lets assume these people will use unreal which costs $19 per month and the "integrated" speedtree for additional $19 per month and lets say they will play around with it for 3 years, this will cost them $1368 for these tools, just to realize in the end they also have no "make my game button". Ah and before I forgot, you need other tools as well, but luckily they also have cheap subscriptions and in the end you may be paying around $100 per month just to be able to develop with the newest technology.
It will pay off, if you are successfull, but otherwise maybe not and you have spend money and you do not own any software in the end you used or helped to develop.
#83
With speed tree, you can just pay the subscription while you are developing the trees and than cancel the subscription once your artist guy is done. Yep sure after you cancel you can't make modifications to the trees unless you subscribe again.
If you are an indie and on a budget you can easily get away without paying $40 per month for UE4 and SpeedTree.
11/20/2014 (3:03 pm)
Yeah but those two $19 per month charges don't have to be per month. You can get unreal for $19 and cancel your subscription. You won't get any updates but you have full access to the source code and can make your game. Should you see an update that interests you just pay $19 again and cancel.With speed tree, you can just pay the subscription while you are developing the trees and than cancel the subscription once your artist guy is done. Yep sure after you cancel you can't make modifications to the trees unless you subscribe again.
If you are an indie and on a budget you can easily get away without paying $40 per month for UE4 and SpeedTree.
#84
However I do think it's probably a lower priority relative to some of the issues here.
Also, can everybody, everybody, please stop it with the "make my game button" strawman. It's only ever used to dismiss and insult inexperienced users, who rarely ever actually ask for anything resembling that.
My personal biggest issue right now is that to make a game with T3D's editors, I basically am forced to use the stock templates. Try loading up the editors in t3d-bones and you discover assumption upon assumption where the editor suite is tied completely into the existing template infrastructure. From GUI profiles and controls to global variables to folder layout, the two are inseparable. So, that should change.
11/20/2014 (3:25 pm)
And if you can get away with $40 a month, then you can get away with $30 once for Forester. However, I do think having some sort of tree generation integrated into the editor would be a great addition.However I do think it's probably a lower priority relative to some of the issues here.
Also, can everybody, everybody, please stop it with the "make my game button" strawman. It's only ever used to dismiss and insult inexperienced users, who rarely ever actually ask for anything resembling that.
My personal biggest issue right now is that to make a game with T3D's editors, I basically am forced to use the stock templates. Try loading up the editors in t3d-bones and you discover assumption upon assumption where the editor suite is tied completely into the existing template infrastructure. From GUI profiles and controls to global variables to folder layout, the two are inseparable. So, that should change.
#85
Ok, i dont think we need a tree generetor inside t3d.
Forester realy make nice trees and they work well in t3d.
Im agree with Duion, better fix other things, so that we have a propper running engine, before add more stuff.
11/20/2014 (3:29 pm)
What about a nice tree set in stock shape for t3d, and use oder tree editor tools, or better even a 3d modelling software like blender.Ok, i dont think we need a tree generetor inside t3d.
Forester realy make nice trees and they work well in t3d.
Im agree with Duion, better fix other things, so that we have a propper running engine, before add more stuff.
#86
As a newbie without big experience in game design or art, I could get going with Torque3D in months and had my first self build levels with my own art, but when I was going to the scripting part, things got really hard and slow to learn.
Other engines have simple game mechanics and scripting build in, so even without much knowledge you can setup simple mechanics, not so in Torque.
As a level-designer I want things like "button, elevator, ladder, trigger, moveable/rotateable ojects, door, ai-spawn, cut-scenes and so on" in the editor window as entities I can use that have a function.
So if you want to help artists and level designers the mostly needed thing is some premade entities you can use in the editor to build simple game mechanics.
11/20/2014 (3:45 pm)
This thread is about artists and level designers, but I don't see the main weaknesses of Torque3D in this field.As a newbie without big experience in game design or art, I could get going with Torque3D in months and had my first self build levels with my own art, but when I was going to the scripting part, things got really hard and slow to learn.
Other engines have simple game mechanics and scripting build in, so even without much knowledge you can setup simple mechanics, not so in Torque.
As a level-designer I want things like "button, elevator, ladder, trigger, moveable/rotateable ojects, door, ai-spawn, cut-scenes and so on" in the editor window as entities I can use that have a function.
So if you want to help artists and level designers the mostly needed thing is some premade entities you can use in the editor to build simple game mechanics.
#87
@Duion speedtree is integrated (generated and supported by udk through c++ api/sdk included) and you can use it right away with udk and still pay the same fees then cancel. major game engine companies like epic and crytek are now at war. Gone are the days that an indie dev artist/designers will hesitate to jump into the nextgen bandwagon because the engine makers are staying competitive tech and marketing wise. heck, even students and hobbyists are using udk/unity not to make games but as an art portfolio building a future career around it. I wish they could also do the same with torque.
since torque goes opensource and cannot be categorized with these engines in terms of resources, still the goals being discussed here is about leveling with the big boys and what makes an artist choose to go with them and not torque. I don't mean to sound harsh here but you asked for answers and this is reality, so here ya go.
i'm a fan of Beam drive and LiF so just a concerned guy here with still high hopes for torque and the community.
11/20/2014 (3:47 pm)
you got that right Timmy. I couldn't have explained it better. @Duion speedtree is integrated (generated and supported by udk through c++ api/sdk included) and you can use it right away with udk and still pay the same fees then cancel. major game engine companies like epic and crytek are now at war. Gone are the days that an indie dev artist/designers will hesitate to jump into the nextgen bandwagon because the engine makers are staying competitive tech and marketing wise. heck, even students and hobbyists are using udk/unity not to make games but as an art portfolio building a future career around it. I wish they could also do the same with torque.
since torque goes opensource and cannot be categorized with these engines in terms of resources, still the goals being discussed here is about leveling with the big boys and what makes an artist choose to go with them and not torque. I don't mean to sound harsh here but you asked for answers and this is reality, so here ya go.
i'm a fan of Beam drive and LiF so just a concerned guy here with still high hopes for torque and the community.
#88
11/20/2014 (4:21 pm)
So maybe 'level designers' actually need a nice way to start writing level-specific scripts - triggers, unique scripted events, etc. Like GMK, though maybe we could start somewhere simpler. Currently, AFAIK, there isn't a good way to do per-mission scripts. I've sort of started to do some work on that in the 7dfps template. Have a look at this file. I gave each mission its own main.cs which contains mission-specific scripts. This one spawns AI characters when the mission starts:function TrainingLevel::onLoad(%this) {
//stuff
// Trigger SpawnSphere spawns in the EnemySpawns group
EnemySpawns.callOnChildren(spawnObject);
}Maybe creating some simplified logic to abstract this would be nice - but even just providing a script editor window in the editor that opens up a level's main.cs for you might be cool. And a 'run' button that acts as if the level was just loaded (i.e. deletes the level cleanup group and calls the load function).
#89
some other issues here about having other examples with the strengths of torque:
-how do you blend lightmaps and dynamic shadows? I see there's a shadowdarkencolor setting for it but how do we use it? See my thread here:
www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/140509
-destructible objects. currently there's only the the zip file which only opens in max. How about a collada example and simple tutorial on how to go about in adding it to your level. The best example using it is the pacific demo which is in compiled form. c'mon man!
-teleporters. there's the stock model always included but no accompanying scripts or demo on the download. maybe an update???
and so on...
I'm not an expert coder but I see a lot of scripts here being contributed. At least provide a good example on how each basic torque feature works and a simple tutorial or demo level featuring it so level designers and artists can make use of them and not ignore it and look the other way.
@Daniel Buckmaster
i don't think it is about making specific level scripts, but on the simpler side. make an example with original and accessible source assets (collada) of *each torque feature* using mission levels so a new user can wrap around his or her mind with it.
Say we open the levels mission folder, here's my idea..
Example_01_Lightmaps.mis
Example_02_Particles.mis
Example_03_Teleporters.mis
Example_04_Melee.mis
Example_05_Inventory.mis
Example_06_Destructible_Objects.mis
Example_07_Vehicles.mis
Example_08_Triggers_Events.mis
Example_09_Basic_AI.mis
Example_10_Recast_Navigation
so on and so forth........
This kind of demo approach already works with ogre3d and other opensource tool, why not torque?
you don't have to wow the audience, a simple demo will do. just make them all work is all i can say.
11/20/2014 (5:13 pm)
ok I'm done with the tree creator debate. I'm just saying other engines have it that's why it's a great addition for artists working on udk/unity.some other issues here about having other examples with the strengths of torque:
-how do you blend lightmaps and dynamic shadows? I see there's a shadowdarkencolor setting for it but how do we use it? See my thread here:
www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/140509
-destructible objects. currently there's only the the zip file which only opens in max. How about a collada example and simple tutorial on how to go about in adding it to your level. The best example using it is the pacific demo which is in compiled form. c'mon man!
-teleporters. there's the stock model always included but no accompanying scripts or demo on the download. maybe an update???
and so on...
I'm not an expert coder but I see a lot of scripts here being contributed. At least provide a good example on how each basic torque feature works and a simple tutorial or demo level featuring it so level designers and artists can make use of them and not ignore it and look the other way.
@Daniel Buckmaster
i don't think it is about making specific level scripts, but on the simpler side. make an example with original and accessible source assets (collada) of *each torque feature* using mission levels so a new user can wrap around his or her mind with it.
Say we open the levels mission folder, here's my idea..
Example_01_Lightmaps.mis
Example_02_Particles.mis
Example_03_Teleporters.mis
Example_04_Melee.mis
Example_05_Inventory.mis
Example_06_Destructible_Objects.mis
Example_07_Vehicles.mis
Example_08_Triggers_Events.mis
Example_09_Basic_AI.mis
Example_10_Recast_Navigation
so on and so forth........
This kind of demo approach already works with ogre3d and other opensource tool, why not torque?
you don't have to wow the audience, a simple demo will do. just make them all work is all i can say.
#90
11/20/2014 (5:42 pm)
Teleporters are one of the few things that are in the editor and are working out of the box.
#91
as I have said, a separate simple demo of each wouldn't hurt but will greatly benefit new and clueless users. we're not asking to make a **create a game button** here but... ummm how do they actually work? can we see a live example of this feature here or that one? this and that.
make things easier so noobs and others can play around with it and follow, that's all.
11/20/2014 (6:05 pm)
@Duion yes, my point exactly. all i can see is one instance and needs to be setup and it's buried somewhere within the options and we don't see a full working example.as I have said, a separate simple demo of each wouldn't hurt but will greatly benefit new and clueless users. we're not asking to make a **create a game button** here but... ummm how do they actually work? can we see a live example of this feature here or that one? this and that.
make things easier so noobs and others can play around with it and follow, that's all.
#92
But in case Winterleaf wants to be the new company behind Torque, you can leave that for them ;)
11/20/2014 (6:15 pm)
We have no company behind us who will fulfill our wishes, so most people here are just volunteers, so if you found how the teleporter works, you can make a short tutorial for this, maybe other will follow your example and help you with things you did not know.But in case Winterleaf wants to be the new company behind Torque, you can leave that for them ;)
#93
haha I know that Duion. but hey it's mit license which is good so I don't see why other 3rd parties or companies can make something cool out of it.
but we're talking about vanilla MIT torque and i'm pointing the teleporter as an example because i dont even know how to make this damn thing work. You see the irony here? and the plan is to make templates??
why not make things simple and deal with each feature at least, go back to the basics so noobs can learn and see the good things you can do with torque to make a game and not see another level example.
11/20/2014 (6:26 pm)
haha I know that Duion. but hey it's mit license which is good so I don't see why other 3rd parties or companies can make something cool out of it.
but we're talking about vanilla MIT torque and i'm pointing the teleporter as an example because i dont even know how to make this damn thing work. You see the irony here? and the plan is to make templates??
why not make things simple and deal with each feature at least, go back to the basics so noobs can learn and see the good things you can do with torque to make a game and not see another level example.
#94
Each new significant feature added to the engine should then get a corresponding demo/toy.
11/20/2014 (6:27 pm)
GamerX, that example mission is exactly where I want to go. Glad someone else agrees. I will probably be basing my work on t3d-bones, and doing something similar to T2D's toys. IMO *that* should be what's included with the repo, not the current templates - they should be separate projects.Each new significant feature added to the engine should then get a corresponding demo/toy.
#95
11/20/2014 (6:30 pm)
thanks Daniel. I'm glad at least someone is with me on this simple but helpful idea
#96
Couldn't agree more.
11/20/2014 (8:08 pm)
Quote:Each new significant feature added to the engine should then get a corresponding demo/toy
Couldn't agree more.
#97
11/20/2014 (8:25 pm)
Made a separate thread, because I think it's slightly off-topic for this tutorial.
#98
So I'm uploading this sample level along with a primitive lightmapped mesh that I have made/converted with blender and other tools for testing. This is complete with collada source, cs files, diffuse and lightmap textures. I can't make the shadow blending to work but the docs says it supports it with shadowdarkencolor. If this is another thing then there should be support with static light maps working together with dynamic shadows. I can only get through with *Represent this in lightmap* option which is step one.
my progress so far..
source
jmp.sh/t7kDpdN
Maybe some willing experts here can pick it up and figure this thing out then we're now up with one example. model and zip is unlicense or public domain.
11/20/2014 (8:41 pm)
yep same here Timmy.So I'm uploading this sample level along with a primitive lightmapped mesh that I have made/converted with blender and other tools for testing. This is complete with collada source, cs files, diffuse and lightmap textures. I can't make the shadow blending to work but the docs says it supports it with shadowdarkencolor. If this is another thing then there should be support with static light maps working together with dynamic shadows. I can only get through with *Represent this in lightmap* option which is step one.
my progress so far..
source
jmp.sh/t7kDpdN
Maybe some willing experts here can pick it up and figure this thing out then we're now up with one example. model and zip is unlicense or public domain.
#99
I would also like to see more out of the box solutions for animations, fbx support etc. It would greatly speed up the production speed for Torque games. As the market is now too many close sourced game engines offer what I just mention for a very low cost. Speedtree is also really something Torque 3D needs to think about working with.
As I see it, Torque tech is currently loosing ground to most closed sourced commercial game engines.
Open Source and free are not strengths if that means everything have to been implemented or done in-house. Independent game developers and companies invest time and money in tech because it shorten the time and money to produce games.
I find many of the suggestions in this thread to be good but greatly fear that SC and the community as a whole lack the manpower and resources to work on all the ideas.
I love Torque tech but sadly many options out there now offer better solutions.
11/20/2014 (11:43 pm)
On the artistic side I would love to see stuff like PureLight built into the editor. It would be utterly awesome to built your level inside the World Editor and the bake lights with PureLight(I really love that tech). It would make Torque 3D MIT stand out for real. Perhaps the SC could hook up with PureLight designers and make a special PureLight T3D MIT edition for people who bought PureLight.I would also like to see more out of the box solutions for animations, fbx support etc. It would greatly speed up the production speed for Torque games. As the market is now too many close sourced game engines offer what I just mention for a very low cost. Speedtree is also really something Torque 3D needs to think about working with.
As I see it, Torque tech is currently loosing ground to most closed sourced commercial game engines.
Open Source and free are not strengths if that means everything have to been implemented or done in-house. Independent game developers and companies invest time and money in tech because it shorten the time and money to produce games.
I find many of the suggestions in this thread to be good but greatly fear that SC and the community as a whole lack the manpower and resources to work on all the ideas.
I love Torque tech but sadly many options out there now offer better solutions.
#100
Any particular examples you'd like to see for "out of the box solutions for animations"
Having specifics makes it easier to put it onto a list ;)
As for SpeedTree, I put in for an email to them and got a call back today. I talked with the guy and while he expressed interest in getting a partnership set up, currently the userbase is a bit too small for them to warrant eating the cost of offering the really low subscription fee that Unity and UE4 can offer.
He wanted to stay in contact though, so that's a pretty large motivator for us to improve things and grow the community.
If we get more people in here and working with the engine, we could be looking at working with SpeedTree as well.
If you guys have other things you'd like looked into, keep posting them here. I don't mind trying to put feelers out to see what or who we can work with to improve Torque ;)
11/21/2014 (12:10 pm)
@DwarfAny particular examples you'd like to see for "out of the box solutions for animations"
Having specifics makes it easier to put it onto a list ;)
As for SpeedTree, I put in for an email to them and got a call back today. I talked with the guy and while he expressed interest in getting a partnership set up, currently the userbase is a bit too small for them to warrant eating the cost of offering the really low subscription fee that Unity and UE4 can offer.
He wanted to stay in contact though, so that's a pretty large motivator for us to improve things and grow the community.
If we get more people in here and working with the engine, we could be looking at working with SpeedTree as well.
If you guys have other things you'd like looked into, keep posting them here. I don't mind trying to put feelers out to see what or who we can work with to improve Torque ;)
GamerX
that's exactly what we're posting here, tools. 3rd party doesn't count if it is not integrated as i'm describing here what is available from Torque download for artist level designers out of the box, as compared to other engines, and we're not including outdated engines which do lack the tools.
are you using forester on your current or any project? I don't think so, because it is not free and demo versions don't quite cut it.
"Making development easy" means also having the tools inside the engine, and not buying a dozen 3rd party tools and sometimes most of them don't work out of the box or lacking examples, just to create a decent level.
I don't think there will be a discussion like this if there is now a concern for artist and level designers for not choosing Torque over others and some are heading now to udk/unity like this guy right here: www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/22879
Let's keep it real.