Artist and level designers
by Paul Yoskowitz · in Torque 3D Professional · 11/03/2014 (4:32 am) · 141 replies
Where do you feel that T3D is falling down as far as things for the artist and level designers?
This isn't about the latest DX/OGL or anything like that. What tools are missing compared to other engines out there right now that you feel would breathe new life into T3D-MIT and make development easier for you?
This is the list so far of issues or things that need added:
*Interior/structure designer like Constructor
*Prefab object that combines models and scripts
*Improve forest editor
*Beefing up the sketch tool
*Beef up the material editor
*Fix the Shadow system
*Jitter in terrain system between terrain and models
*Add weather system
*Better snapping system
*Better Zip file functionality
*Re-add terrain erosion
*Add terrain specular, and if needs be, remove parallax from the terrain pass to make way for it, but retain parallax for shapes.
*Add the ability to set a kind of 'alpha mask' for the terrain tools, so you can set the strength & shape of the tools a bit more specifically.
*Add more flexibility in the noise tool again, maybe being able to set a tiled heightmap mask to it so you can again control the behaviour of it better depending on design requirements.
*Water... although i havent played around with it in recent builds, and it may have been changed since i have used it properly, the settings for water could really be simplified down to make it more user friendly, alot of the settings are awkwardly named considering their effects on the water blocks.
*A basic precipitation and particle library
*Add split screen "view ports"
*Better terrain materials manager
*Add a semi "auto-zone" widget kinda thing. for example selecting a building shape, and at click of a button, create a "zone" item matching its bounds etc.
*Ground Cover needs collision support
*Add terrain layer sensitivity to the forest
*Improve character import
*Add more keyboard shortcuts and show on the menu
*Light bleeding through the seems
*Possibly change the ground cover and forest editor to be 2 more generalized editors
*when standing outside of a zone, particles and lights are visible that are created inside of it. the only way that they should be visible is by looking inside the zone through a portal.
*Occlusion Volume. It should have a switch that allows it to effect the terrain behind it or not. As it stands, it causes the terrain to disappear behind it, which u dont always want.
*More 3D imports
*Artist friendly - add sliders along w numbers input
*SKYBOX and SCATTER SKY should work together somehow
*Better animation blending
This isn't about the latest DX/OGL or anything like that. What tools are missing compared to other engines out there right now that you feel would breathe new life into T3D-MIT and make development easier for you?
This is the list so far of issues or things that need added:
*Interior/structure designer like Constructor
*Prefab object that combines models and scripts
*Improve forest editor
*Beefing up the sketch tool
*Beef up the material editor
*Fix the Shadow system
*Jitter in terrain system between terrain and models
*Add weather system
*Better snapping system
*Better Zip file functionality
*Re-add terrain erosion
*Add terrain specular, and if needs be, remove parallax from the terrain pass to make way for it, but retain parallax for shapes.
*Add the ability to set a kind of 'alpha mask' for the terrain tools, so you can set the strength & shape of the tools a bit more specifically.
*Add more flexibility in the noise tool again, maybe being able to set a tiled heightmap mask to it so you can again control the behaviour of it better depending on design requirements.
*Water... although i havent played around with it in recent builds, and it may have been changed since i have used it properly, the settings for water could really be simplified down to make it more user friendly, alot of the settings are awkwardly named considering their effects on the water blocks.
*A basic precipitation and particle library
*Add split screen "view ports"
*Better terrain materials manager
*Add a semi "auto-zone" widget kinda thing. for example selecting a building shape, and at click of a button, create a "zone" item matching its bounds etc.
*Ground Cover needs collision support
*Add terrain layer sensitivity to the forest
*Improve character import
*Add more keyboard shortcuts and show on the menu
*Light bleeding through the seems
*Possibly change the ground cover and forest editor to be 2 more generalized editors
*when standing outside of a zone, particles and lights are visible that are created inside of it. the only way that they should be visible is by looking inside the zone through a portal.
*Occlusion Volume. It should have a switch that allows it to effect the terrain behind it or not. As it stands, it causes the terrain to disappear behind it, which u dont always want.
*More 3D imports
*Artist friendly - add sliders along w numbers input
*SKYBOX and SCATTER SKY should work together somehow
*Better animation blending
About the author
http://winterleafentertainment.com/
#62
11/16/2014 (4:55 am)
I know it would mean more drawcalls Daniel but try and double side the materials used in that hallway in the material editor. I came across issues like that before and if i remember right double siding them sorted that out, not ideal but it seemed to work. what annoyed me more though was the bleeding at seems 
#63
11/16/2014 (5:00 am)
The shadow system is not realy a nice thing. it slow down the fps and looking ugly in some cases. But i can't help at this, just know it could be better :) about other engines have it better.
#64
and that's been a bother for a while now - light bleeding through the seems
11/16/2014 (6:49 am)
@Andy and that's been a bother for a while now - light bleeding through the seems
#65
11/16/2014 (6:57 pm)
I tried organizing all this on the initial post. please let me know if this needs to be changed or modified AND HOW......
#66
shadows still show if u are inside a zone and looking out at a static, even if the static isn't rendered
zones don't destroy particle effects and statics don't stop particle effects. IMO there should be SOME way of stopping them.
11/17/2014 (3:27 pm)
Something Ive been noticingshadows still show if u are inside a zone and looking out at a static, even if the static isn't rendered
zones don't destroy particle effects and statics don't stop particle effects. IMO there should be SOME way of stopping them.
#67
11/18/2014 (1:43 am)
Particle effects checking for collision ? I imagine thats going to eat alot of performance. Also whats up with your zoning, you should still see the correct scene outside, whats being culled that should be on view or arent you using portals ?
#68
I think Paul talking about that.
11/18/2014 (4:06 am)
No collision check. Just switch off when you stay outside the zone. Same for point lights. When you be outside a zone, particles just are visible also lights inside the zone. Noting should be visible inside the zone. except you use a portal for the ports or windows.. and such.I think Paul talking about that.
#69
11/18/2014 (4:22 am)
I played around with the Occlusion Volume. One thing i do not like there, that it also make the terrain invissible, there where the OV is active. But i would like to have a switch, so i can set terrain is vissible or get invisible, depend what i like to have.
#70
the only problem I see with that solution is that what if im looking into a zone through a portal? does that now allow the light to go through everything? I think the Zone code would need to keep everything more "self contained" inside of it personally. nothing goes in, nothing goes out EXCEPT via a portal.
now the Occlusion Volume, I agree with 100% I think a terrain switch would be perfect.
11/18/2014 (4:53 am)
@ D Fasel the only problem I see with that solution is that what if im looking into a zone through a portal? does that now allow the light to go through everything? I think the Zone code would need to keep everything more "self contained" inside of it personally. nothing goes in, nothing goes out EXCEPT via a portal.
now the Occlusion Volume, I agree with 100% I think a terrain switch would be perfect.
#71
11/18/2014 (10:19 am)
Did the occlusion volumes ever get fixed ? They were making a whole terrain sector dissapear once the majority of it was behind the occlusion volume, meaning that you had parts of terrain disappear that were still visible past the sides of the block... 
#73
Thanks guys for hearing out and making the constructor on the considered list, and kudos to @Daniel Buckmaster for the Walkabout Navigation. It looks really cool but have not tested it yet. It would be nice if this will be added as a default feature or module on next release, with examples of course.
Re: Forest Editor, it would be nice to have a Tree Generator built-in instead. There are lots of FOSS L-systems and tree generator to derive from and this will generate fast forest with random trees automatically. I hate to compare it again with Unity and UDK, but this is the sad truth and what Torque is also lacking. unity = tree creator, udk = speedtree.
At least start some funding to get an existing 3rd party tool that can integrate to Torque (speedtree or that medusa generator) strike a deal or at least request for their product integration, like Forest Kit and Sundog did with their cloud and ocean products, triton or something..
11/19/2014 (7:13 am)
Thanks guys for hearing out and making the constructor on the considered list, and kudos to @Daniel Buckmaster for the Walkabout Navigation. It looks really cool but have not tested it yet. It would be nice if this will be added as a default feature or module on next release, with examples of course.
Re: Forest Editor, it would be nice to have a Tree Generator built-in instead. There are lots of FOSS L-systems and tree generator to derive from and this will generate fast forest with random trees automatically. I hate to compare it again with Unity and UDK, but this is the sad truth and what Torque is also lacking. unity = tree creator, udk = speedtree.
At least start some funding to get an existing 3rd party tool that can integrate to Torque (speedtree or that medusa generator) strike a deal or at least request for their product integration, like Forest Kit and Sundog did with their cloud and ocean products, triton or something..
#74
@GamerX
is there an Open Source one for trees, sky, water, etc? Im not sure how well a funded solution will go over.
11/20/2014 (4:59 am)
Moved 2 more to the initial post.@GamerX
is there an Open Source one for trees, sky, water, etc? Im not sure how well a funded solution will go over.
#75
for sky/water there is an opensource c++ plugin implementation in ogre3d called hydraX/skyX:
www.ogre3d.org/tikiwiki/Hydrax
the author does commission and consultation work. He already derived his new engine from Ogre with his sky/ocean plugin already included, Paradise Sandbox. paradise-sandbox.com/
last time I checked there's already a java port of his library with this another new engine: bonzaiengine.com/
for tree creation, there's the blender sapling tree creator addon. it's GPL so some licensing issues here. Make a port of the code then dynamically create meshes and connect it with the forest editor.
Other white papers on the web:
www.allenpike.com/modeling-plants-with-l-systems/
NG-Plant (C++/GPL)
ngplant.sourceforge.net/#licenseanc
Arbaro - "Creation and Rendering of Realistic Trees"
sourceforge.net/projects/arbaro/
hook it as a DLL like other modules or just ask permission from the owner.
..just some ideas here
11/20/2014 (6:22 am)
@Paulfor sky/water there is an opensource c++ plugin implementation in ogre3d called hydraX/skyX:
www.ogre3d.org/tikiwiki/Hydrax
the author does commission and consultation work. He already derived his new engine from Ogre with his sky/ocean plugin already included, Paradise Sandbox. paradise-sandbox.com/
last time I checked there's already a java port of his library with this another new engine: bonzaiengine.com/
for tree creation, there's the blender sapling tree creator addon. it's GPL so some licensing issues here. Make a port of the code then dynamically create meshes and connect it with the forest editor.
Other white papers on the web:
www.allenpike.com/modeling-plants-with-l-systems/
NG-Plant (C++/GPL)
ngplant.sourceforge.net/#licenseanc
Arbaro - "Creation and Rendering of Realistic Trees"
sourceforge.net/projects/arbaro/
hook it as a DLL like other modules or just ask permission from the owner.
..just some ideas here
#76
While we're at this topic: why not make the Skybox and Scattersky work together? just make some transition skyboxes during night and day if using it with the TOD feature. UDK still makes use of skyboxes (skydomes in particular) and its nextgen lighting system[/b].
makes the whole scene more appealing..
11/20/2014 (6:42 am)
Though I would prefer Sundog's ocean and sky as it looks more pro than others.While we're at this topic: why not make the Skybox and Scattersky work together? just make some transition skyboxes during night and day if using it with the TOD feature. UDK still makes use of skyboxes (skydomes in particular) and its nextgen lighting system[/b].
makes the whole scene more appealing..
#77
1: Very big amount of work,
2: for relatively little improvement.
3: There are no good open source solutions out there that could do that yet and
4: if there are, they are likely different licenses, this will make a licensing mess, while using the output of a different licensed program with the MIT version is no problem at all.
5: even if so, before you do that, you should take care about other issues.
11/20/2014 (8:27 am)
Integrating a tree generator is a ridiculous idea, because of:1: Very big amount of work,
2: for relatively little improvement.
3: There are no good open source solutions out there that could do that yet and
4: if there are, they are likely different licenses, this will make a licensing mess, while using the output of a different licensed program with the MIT version is no problem at all.
5: even if so, before you do that, you should take care about other issues.
#78
what ever happened with AssImp?
www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/137168/1
11/20/2014 (8:57 am)
Adding something to the pipe that I think has fallen to the wayside:what ever happened with AssImp?
www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/137168/1
#79
not to diss you or anything but I think you are side tracking here..
The TS Paul clearly posted here:
"Where do you feel that T3D is falling down as far as things for the artist and level designers? This isn't about the latest DX/OGL or anything like that.
What tools are missing compared to other engines out there right now that you feel would breathe new life into T3D-MIT and make development easier for you? What tools are missing compared to other engines out there right now that you feel would breathe new life into T3D-MIT and make development easier for you?"
It's a "wishlist", nobody said or have acted that this will be included yet. I think Torque issues are another topic.
and as I already mentioned, UDK and Unity have their own tree generator and it greatly benefits the artists anddesigners in making levels, meanwhile Torque is being left in the dark.
i don't think it's ridiculous.. it is 2015
11/20/2014 (8:58 am)
@Duionnot to diss you or anything but I think you are side tracking here..
The TS Paul clearly posted here:
"Where do you feel that T3D is falling down as far as things for the artist and level designers? This isn't about the latest DX/OGL or anything like that.
What tools are missing compared to other engines out there right now that you feel would breathe new life into T3D-MIT and make development easier for you? What tools are missing compared to other engines out there right now that you feel would breathe new life into T3D-MIT and make development easier for you?"
It's a "wishlist", nobody said or have acted that this will be included yet. I think Torque issues are another topic.
and as I already mentioned, UDK and Unity have their own tree generator and it greatly benefits the artists anddesigners in making levels, meanwhile Torque is being left in the dark.
i don't think it's ridiculous.. it is 2015
#80
We have that also with forester, generate a tree, import into Torque, done.
11/20/2014 (9:22 am)
I think you do a bit misinformation here, other engines do not have all their own build in tree generator, the tree generators just support a flawless import of their products, for these engines.We have that also with forester, generate a tree, import into Torque, done.
Andrew Mac
Looks like split shadow problem. You can highlight the problem very easily by making a level, place a cube, place a point light just above the cube, and enable shadow casting. I believe it's just a flaw/limitation in PSSM. It seems to split the shadow maps down the middle and only produce two proper casts in opposite directions rather than 4. I don't know if you can fix this, as the name suggests: Parallel Split Shadow Mapping, two directions may be all you can get. You may just have to be aware of the problem and work around it. I'm still not 100% sure this is a torque specific problem, or if it's the particular shadow mapping technique being used in a worst case scenario for that technique.
That's my guess anyway. Based on the way the shadows look coming out of that corner.