Cryengine Next-Gen and Merging T2D and 3D
by raa brubb · in Torque 3D Professional · 06/03/2014 (8:13 pm) · 74 replies
As some of you may know, Cryengine Next-Gen has been released and I have been blooooooooooooowwwwnnnnnnn away by PBR, Dynamic Weather, and what not. I'm not going to rant more, but I have seriously considered buying it because it works on PC, Xbox One, Xbox 360, Playstation 4, Playstation 3, Wii U, iOS, and Android. Not to mention there are NO royalty payments whatsoever and full source code access.
I will probably end up buying it. However, I will still keep up with Torque 3D because I believe in an open source engine. Although T3D is not the best, I think we should "extract" ideas from Cryengine Next-Gen and Unreal Engine 4. Just a reminder. Too remind you though, I think you all are doing a much better job then me. I feel as I'm being pest, but I strongly believe in an open-source engine. Just letting you know, that their is a new tank in town. ;)
I will probably end up buying it. However, I will still keep up with Torque 3D because I believe in an open source engine. Although T3D is not the best, I think we should "extract" ideas from Cryengine Next-Gen and Unreal Engine 4. Just a reminder. Too remind you though, I think you all are doing a much better job then me. I feel as I'm being pest, but I strongly believe in an open-source engine. Just letting you know, that their is a new tank in town. ;)
About the author
#2
The best part is that games can really look damn good if one hire/pay/contract a good 3D artist.
06/03/2014 (9:58 pm)
I really love Torque 3D's dynamic lighting and how one can combine PureLight with it.The best part is that games can really look damn good if one hire/pay/contract a good 3D artist.
#3
CryEngine looks very nice, but I have no idea what the full engine source costs (older posts claim $1.2 million) but the blank page with the lonesome "Get In Contact" button isn't very encouraging....
Still, the SDK alone with no royalties is a pretty sweet deal.
And if you think Torque's GUI system is a pain, try UnrealEngine's Slate! To their credit they are adding a GUI Editor shortly.
But Torque is still free and open source, no matter how you slice it. And awesome artists can indeed make even old tech look very nice.
It all comes down to "use what you want." No point in trying to persuade everyone or start engine wars, people will just dig in harder. It actually might behoove people to use as many engines as they can - then at least when you start to discuss tit-for-tat you know what you're talking about....
06/03/2014 (10:23 pm)
I'd like to point out, from The FAQQuote:Not Engine source - a full game implementation. Otherwise, see the commercial, full-source license purchase page. Reading the comparison from this page carefully should have clued everyone in.
What will I get with my monthly subscription?
Getting in with our EaaS program has a number of benefits: first of all, you will always have access to the latest build of our CRYENGINE, and be the first to hear about any upcoming updates. You have instant access to all graphic features and tools, including the powerful renderer behind our Xbox One title Ryse: Son of Rome, C++ and Lua API interfaces along with a full game implementation written in C++, and demo levels and assets for different types of games.
CryEngine looks very nice, but I have no idea what the full engine source costs (older posts claim $1.2 million) but the blank page with the lonesome "Get In Contact" button isn't very encouraging....
Still, the SDK alone with no royalties is a pretty sweet deal.
And if you think Torque's GUI system is a pain, try UnrealEngine's Slate! To their credit they are adding a GUI Editor shortly.
But Torque is still free and open source, no matter how you slice it. And awesome artists can indeed make even old tech look very nice.
It all comes down to "use what you want." No point in trying to persuade everyone or start engine wars, people will just dig in harder. It actually might behoove people to use as many engines as they can - then at least when you start to discuss tit-for-tat you know what you're talking about....
#4
06/03/2014 (10:32 pm)
I agree, Richard - every engine will have strengths and weaknesses, and different people to whom it's suited.
#5
Madness I say, pure madness. Pick one use it if you find the price and terms fair. End of discussion.
06/04/2014 (12:14 am)
Lol, when I read that reddit thread it is all:Shall I use Unity, CryEngine or UE4? Use UE4 Nooo! use Unity Nooo use Cryengine Noo It will make yo cry!!! Stick with Unity!!! Nooo go for UE4!!! Arghhh ENGINE WAR!!! You die!!! Their can only be one ENGINE!! Here take mine for 10$! Hmm... Here take mine for 5$!!! Why you! Why you! FOR FREEEEE!... The users are beginning to feel like table tennis balls Ping... Pong... Ping... Pong...
Madness I say, pure madness. Pick one use it if you find the price and terms fair. End of discussion.
#6
I would of already jumped on UE4's train, but their not finished with Linux and HTML5 support. The last big thing for me though was the royalty payments that stare at me like they're going to kill me.
Of course, this is why I fled to T3D and try to upgrade it. Yeah, I wanted iOS, Android, HTML5, and direct Linux support, but the open-sourceness of T3D has kept me here. If T3D becomes a "modern" engine, then it will beat everyone for one simple reason. Open-Source.
06/04/2014 (12:26 am)
I find it hard to pick based on needs. UE4 is pretty awesome. It just looks like a quality engine not to mention it is getting HTML5 and Linux support pretty soon. Unity 5 is like the definition of cross-platform. It can deploy to pretty much everywhere and is pretty amazing also. CRYENGINE has graphics that seem to beat all the engines, except off course, Snowdrop Engine. They are known for different things, but it's hard to choose. They all focus on different things and its hard to pick whats important.I would of already jumped on UE4's train, but their not finished with Linux and HTML5 support. The last big thing for me though was the royalty payments that stare at me like they're going to kill me.
Of course, this is why I fled to T3D and try to upgrade it. Yeah, I wanted iOS, Android, HTML5, and direct Linux support, but the open-sourceness of T3D has kept me here. If T3D becomes a "modern" engine, then it will beat everyone for one simple reason. Open-Source.
#7
06/04/2014 (2:35 am)
Quote:I find it hard to pick based on needs.Do you know what your needs are yet?
#8
The demo trailers are just marketing, there is a lot of manpower of professionals behind it and a lot of money involved, all the things open source people and indie developers don't have.
Look at the ugly stuff the average people produces with other engines, too.
Gaming industry is a multi-million dollar business now, so you cannot really compete with what they show you, unless you employ 100 people and have a few millions in budget for the game.
Look at BeamNG guys, they even switched from Cryengine to Torque and some people still thing it is Cryengine, so this either proves Torque can compete pretty good or Torque has such a bad reputation, that nobody believes in it.
06/04/2014 (5:00 am)
Don't let yourself confuse by the graphics, the engine is just a rendering device, sure the big engines have more features, but today all engines are pretty good, it depends more on the artists what it will look like.The demo trailers are just marketing, there is a lot of manpower of professionals behind it and a lot of money involved, all the things open source people and indie developers don't have.
Look at the ugly stuff the average people produces with other engines, too.
Gaming industry is a multi-million dollar business now, so you cannot really compete with what they show you, unless you employ 100 people and have a few millions in budget for the game.
Look at BeamNG guys, they even switched from Cryengine to Torque and some people still thing it is Cryengine, so this either proves Torque can compete pretty good or Torque has such a bad reputation, that nobody believes in it.
#9
@Duion - I think people still think it's CryEngine because they don't know what they are talking about to begin with. Like you say, the artist really makes a game look good - not necessarily the renderer.
06/04/2014 (6:33 am)
I WISH I had to worry about royalties. And if you think any engine has bad royalty terms, wait until you talk to a publisher....@Duion - I think people still think it's CryEngine because they don't know what they are talking about to begin with. Like you say, the artist really makes a game look good - not necessarily the renderer.
#10
Unity is perfect for prototyping.
Unity , UE and CryEngine are common purpose game engines. You should not expect great performance using them.
For example I have friends, who work for Ubisoft. The company technology there is the same, compared to Unreal. The only difference is that it works 3 times faster :)
06/04/2014 (7:08 am)
PBR is not suitable for every single game. You will never see PBR in Zelda:)Unity is perfect for prototyping.
Unity , UE and CryEngine are common purpose game engines. You should not expect great performance using them.
For example I have friends, who work for Ubisoft. The company technology there is the same, compared to Unreal. The only difference is that it works 3 times faster :)
#11
You can say all you want that it's all about art, etc. And while this is a valid point, the renderer has something to do with it too. And one thing I can't help but notice is Torque always lags behind a lot of the competition in just flat out looks. I've tested on numerous occasions importing and testing assets across engines and often Torque still lands flat.
Particularly what needs some attention is the post effects side of things, imo. There has been some rather admirable work in those areas, but the official release right now is still rather basic in what it packs with. The SSAO isn't exactly stellar and the HDR leaves a ton to be desired. Those things just for starters.
Primarily I've always noticed that Torque's light looks sort of flat. When looking at engines, I can usually spot a Torque game from a mile away, due to the flat lighting. I've tried to narrow down exactly what it is that causes this and where to adjust it, but never quite get good results.
Duon mentions BeamNG and their switch. It does in fact look great in their demos, but I notice some of the age-old problems if you know where to look. Seems their use of HDR helps bring out the looks and remove some of the flatness. Maybe this would be a good place to target in helping things along?
I suppose I'm just thinking out loud right now. But the point is while we don't need to try to copy CryEngine verbatim, T3D can use some attention to its renderer.
06/04/2014 (1:52 pm)
While I'm not sure I agree about a CryEngine clone, this does bring up a point I've been thinking about mentioning lately: T3D needs some serious updating.You can say all you want that it's all about art, etc. And while this is a valid point, the renderer has something to do with it too. And one thing I can't help but notice is Torque always lags behind a lot of the competition in just flat out looks. I've tested on numerous occasions importing and testing assets across engines and often Torque still lands flat.
Particularly what needs some attention is the post effects side of things, imo. There has been some rather admirable work in those areas, but the official release right now is still rather basic in what it packs with. The SSAO isn't exactly stellar and the HDR leaves a ton to be desired. Those things just for starters.
Primarily I've always noticed that Torque's light looks sort of flat. When looking at engines, I can usually spot a Torque game from a mile away, due to the flat lighting. I've tried to narrow down exactly what it is that causes this and where to adjust it, but never quite get good results.
Duon mentions BeamNG and their switch. It does in fact look great in their demos, but I notice some of the age-old problems if you know where to look. Seems their use of HDR helps bring out the looks and remove some of the flatness. Maybe this would be a good place to target in helping things along?
I suppose I'm just thinking out loud right now. But the point is while we don't need to try to copy CryEngine verbatim, T3D can use some attention to its renderer.
#13
06/04/2014 (7:41 pm)
Well, let me just jump right on that!
#14
06/04/2014 (8:34 pm)
Can't tell if that was sarcastic or serious. But if it was serious... Your the best.
#15
It's hard, you can't expect a small open source project with only a handful of people working on it in their spare time to compete with companies that have hollywood movie style budgets, have massive teams of programmers working fulltime, it's not going to happen.
06/05/2014 (2:15 am)
It's all very true that if you have crappy art than no matter what engine you are using it will look lousy. If you have commercial grade quality art than yeah the latest offerings from Epic and CryTek will most likely look a lot better than T3D. It's hard, you can't expect a small open source project with only a handful of people working on it in their spare time to compete with companies that have hollywood movie style budgets, have massive teams of programmers working fulltime, it's not going to happen.
#16
No need for the over the top sarcasm. Not saying anyone should have to jump right on it. As I said in my post, just kinda thinking out loud. And some discussion wouldn't exactly hurt this place right now.
I can't help but notice this place seems more and more empty as time goes on, which doesn't bode well for Torque. Even with the steering committee and all, things have something of a fragmented feel. So, a little open discussion on things and maybe sharing of thoughts, and maybe someone will decide to explore options and share their ideas. Slowly being less of that, and I'd hate to see this place dry up after I've been here for a decade.
I only wish I had time myself to tackle some problems. Have a number of ideas that I'd love to work with, if only I had time to play around and learn more.
06/05/2014 (8:41 am)
Quote:Well, let me just Juno right on that!
No need for the over the top sarcasm. Not saying anyone should have to jump right on it. As I said in my post, just kinda thinking out loud. And some discussion wouldn't exactly hurt this place right now.
I can't help but notice this place seems more and more empty as time goes on, which doesn't bode well for Torque. Even with the steering committee and all, things have something of a fragmented feel. So, a little open discussion on things and maybe sharing of thoughts, and maybe someone will decide to explore options and share their ideas. Slowly being less of that, and I'd hate to see this place dry up after I've been here for a decade.
I only wish I had time myself to tackle some problems. Have a number of ideas that I'd love to work with, if only I had time to play around and learn more.
#17
http://www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/136469/4#comments
06/05/2014 (11:17 am)
Torque 3D DX11 port:http://www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/136469/4#comments
#18
As for Jacob, I agree. Ever since I've been here it seems sort of... dead. The community doesn't always have the time to work on T3D, and we don't have a corporate backbone (GarageGames). Just me two cents. :)
06/05/2014 (11:24 am)
I'm afraid the DX11 port is no longer being developed. Not to make any final conclusions, but he hasn't done anything for about a month. It would seem he was almost done, but it hasn't been updated since May 6th. T3D hasn't even been fully ported to DX11 and GL and it's very important for that to happen. We need at bigger community. It's that simple, but we won't attract one if we don't do marketing and/or have a modern engine. As for Jacob, I agree. Ever since I've been here it seems sort of... dead. The community doesn't always have the time to work on T3D, and we don't have a corporate backbone (GarageGames). Just me two cents. :)
#19
Dont get me wrong, the market for indie devs is blown wide open now, access to commercial version of the engines at prices that a year or two ago would have been unimaginable. Torque Free, UE4 $20 p/m + royalties, crytek $10 p/m + royalties, unity... screwed unless they change their price points to match.
06/05/2014 (1:00 pm)
I have to admit, I was pretty bummed at cryengine in some respects, sure they have changed a few things for the better depending on what you want to do, i was honestly expecting some kind of unreal vs crytek showdown, whats actually happened is that you now have to PAY for an engine that was free to use even if you did have to negotiate once you made a game. What they have done is taken away the free toys from the people who want to learn (unless you are happy using the outdated<will be in 6-12 months> free download).Dont get me wrong, the market for indie devs is blown wide open now, access to commercial version of the engines at prices that a year or two ago would have been unimaginable. Torque Free, UE4 $20 p/m + royalties, crytek $10 p/m + royalties, unity... screwed unless they change their price points to match.
#20
P.S: Crytek doesn't charge royalties, so you could buy the subscription, make the game, sell it, with no extra charge. Pretty cool actually.
06/05/2014 (2:51 pm)
Yeah, it was kind of sad. However, Torque3D is free, but not a competitor to Unreal Engine 4. It kind of annoys me seeing other engines running away with the game smashing Torque3D. If it doesn't get upgraded now, it will have to be totally re-written in the future, but no one will do it. It will be dead.P.S: Crytek doesn't charge royalties, so you could buy the subscription, make the game, sell it, with no extra charge. Pretty cool actually.
Torque Owner Daniel Buckmaster
T3D Steering Committee