List of needed upgrades...

#1 Keep it in one place, eh?

Lens flares have been in for a hundred years or so....

#2 Oops... Sorry about that. How do you do lens flares then?

As for the list, I mean to have it somewhere on the forums. Looks like that other list is suggestions for GG, not a list of thing that need to be done by whoever.

What else do you all think about the list?

#3 raa,

Not be a pain and I do not want to start any flame wars or anything but, DAMN! Name me ONE other engine currently on the market that has all of this and can still run a game?

Again, not starting a fight or anything but realistically, from what I see here, you are requesting a 'perfect engine' for your ideas. Nothing wrong with that. But;

1. T3D is NOT a 'press button and make game' engine. It NEVER will be and it CAN'T be because that is not what this engine is about or ever has been about.

2. If you have read many of the recent blogs and stuff here you will see a TON of developers that feel they 'need' certain features to 'make T3D the next great engine'. Got news for ya. The engine is not the problem. The problem is a LACK of development skill on the majority of new and even past users. DUH! we have SOURCE code... if we can't make things work... we suck!

If you really want the opinion (and yeah I am ranting a little bit here) of someone that has worked in Torque and MANY other game engines, we need developers that can work within the limits of ANY engine to make a game. T3D will never be a 'total game answer'. There is NOTHING wrong with that. It will meet some needs and it will open ideas for others. I have gone over this 1000 times in my own head... (If Garage Games or (since MIT) just did this then I could make THE killer game that would put this engine on the map!)) Sad but true, I blamed OTHERs for my shortcomings as a developer. (EXAMPLE: I don't know scripts or I don't know code or god help me, I can't figure out how to make DX...Blah Blah Blah work... so my game is stalled.) Once you accept that you can't make your 'PERFECT' game in any one engine, then maybe it's time to think about your 'perfect game'. Maybe you are just ahead of your time, maybe you just don't have what it takes to bring your game to reality.... Nothing wrong with that. Heck, that is what DRIVES development in new directions.

I have seen SO many posts that state something like this; 'I NEED feature X or effect Y in order to make my game a major seller!, If I don't get it then I need to move to another engine that has it!'. Really? I can not name ONE SINGLE GAME EVER that made it big based on a single feature. It's about clever design, using what game mechanics are available in a solid way, story, and beyond that; LUCK and TIMING.

Here is a novel idea, how about everyone QUIT worrying about what T3D CAN'T do and focus on making what it CAN do? T3D has a HUGE number of really cool features. Figure out a way to use them! If you can't script then learn. If you can't code, then learn. If you can't do 'stellar' art, well, Who cares? Was Super Meat Boy a visual masterpiece? NO! If your game is waiting on anything in this 'list of failures' then, I recommend you re-evaluate your concepts. END OF RANT, sorry folks but, I could go on and on about this 'subject'.

#4 Lens flares are set up in each light's properties....

Select the light, scroll down to the Misc section in the Inspector, see flareType and flareScale.....

Quote:
As for the list, I mean to have it somewhere on the forums. Looks like that other list is suggestions for GG, not a list of thing that need to be done by whoever.

Oh, so you mean for this list to be buried unless you also mean to bump it daily. In case you weren't aware, GG has nothing to do with the direction or development of Torque 3D anymore. Those aren't suggestions for GG, they're things people in the community are interested in seeing added or improved in Torque 3D. Since it's an open source engine I'm not sure where you'd put a "list of thing that need to be done by whoever" or how you'd get "whoever" to decide that he "needs" to do them. "Herding cats" comes to mind. You seem to be under the impression that this is a company and that you are a customer, that someone is going to be "assigned" to work on your requests. Sorry bub, you have a lot of good ideas but unless you pony up some cash I'm going to work on my own stuff....

@Ron - I feel ya, I gave up trying a long time ago - except for the occasional jibe....

#5 Oh -

Quote:
- Content Browser (not started)

That's what the Library is....

#6 Rich,

Yeah I know. Just 'feelin' it today :-). Like I said, don't want to start an argument or anything. Just want to point out that lack of dev experience is NOT an engine fault.

#7

Quote:how about everyone QUIT worrying about what T3D CAN'T do and focus on making what it CAN do?

Damn right, brother. I've lost years focusing on what these engines "needed" and in the end, when you're actively working on a game project, you'll still have to tweak the engine to your specific needs and won't end up using half of what it already provides.

In that regard, Torque allows 100% tweaking. Be like Steve Acaster, Make games, people!

#8 Ok, you have a great point.

Torque3D has some really good stuff in it that I enjoy very much. BUT IT STILL NEEDS UPGRADES! Look at UE4 for example, it is visually stunning... HOW THE HECK TO WE CREATE BF4 IN TORQUE3D?

Like you, I'm not angry and I'm not mad at all. I just have no idea how I would create Battlefield 4 in Torque3D. No Idea. Frostbite 3, has almost everything I listed up there and runs fine. Ever since I've seen Torque3D I've always wanted to upgrade it and give it the community. Why? Because I believe in quality of Open Source. Change the code however you want and no one cares! But the engine is not ready for AAA games and I'm not looking for OK graphics because people judge games by graphics a lot more then they used too.

So what now? I significantly love this community better then any other engine community. When I used UE3, I asked how to create an ocean and they basically said "your screwed". Why? Cause we couldn't access the code. I think we should have an engine that is visually powerful and able to be accessed for mods.

That's all I'm saying. Mapping out further ingredients in the engine is all I'm trying to do. I'm so sick of looking at Frostbite 3, Cryengine 4, and Unreal Engine 4's demos and saying, "DAMN, I wish I could do that in Torque3D."

I really don't want to make anyone mad... please forgive me if I'm intolerant. I'm one of those young newbies who don't understand. I'm very sorry if I offended or hurt anybody, I'm just trying to help.

#9 raa,

What's wrong with the PhysX and Torque physics engines?

#10

Quote:Torque3D has some really good stuff in it that I enjoy very much. BUT IT STILL NEEDS UPGRADES! Look at UE4 for example, it is visually stunning... HOW THE HECK TO WE CREATE BF4 IN TORQUE3D?

The thing is though, look at the hardware that is needed to run that visually stunning graphics. I like Torque3D because it can run without having $3,000 machines.

And the point is, you don't have to create BF4 in Torque3D. Different engines serve different purposes.

Remember, the purpose of the game engine is to MAKE games too!

I always support improvements however, don't get me wrong :). I just think that trying to make Torque3D into something like UE4 is not making Torque3D...Torque3D, if you know what i mean. Not every game needs those graphics.

@Ron spot on. You're one of the few people around here who have the balls to rant about something. I like that :P

#11

Quote:HOW THE HECK TO WE CREATE BF4 IN TORQUE3D?

With a AAA budget.

Quote:how about everyone QUIT worrying about what T3D CAN'T do and focus on making what it CAN do?

Also, have this attitude with people is good to. Focus on ppls positive attributes.

Take that list and compare it to the "Source" engine. It will be severely lacking. Yet, it is used to make AAA games. Same with Cryengine or Unity.

#12 I think we should at least have the ability for a light engine or full engine then. At least the ability to make an AAA type game. Seriously.

#13 Actually i have tried to start a Torque3D Version with plenty of stuff and i failed.

What i want to say with this is, Torque3D is what it is and AAA type Games? You should realize that you need a team of artists and coders + many more to produce a AAA Game.

What you can do is to create a indie game but believe me if your gameplay is not working, well then no magic special effects will save your game from failing.

To be honest after the latest developement in the industry one can either stay with T3D or move on to Ue4/ cry engine but changing the engine only because its not lookin so fancy and if it lacks the so awesome dirt lens bla bla shaders (funny thing most gamers just dislike effects like these). My point is Torque3D can be used to produce a Competitive AAA Look A Like game but it depends on the user itself and not on the community.
It took me some time to realize some things as well so here first hand experience at overrating effects, what is it worth if you spend more time on trying to achieve these stuff then working on your actual game? Nah dont answer.


This asset pack by Ron is looking pretty nice, so hell ya you can do AAA look a likes or just check out BeamNG`s stuff, their drive game - made with T3D.
It just depends on the user, the engine is there to be used and not just fooled around.

Now lets be honest your game can play fine and sell fine even without shadergalore or featurama stuff.
Anyways since a community member is activly working on getting Dx11 to T3D, candy looking stuff might just be at the corner.
It takes us all, the steering commitee, the next gen branch guys and ppl who are still submitting resources, all those things matter.

Now am not saying that there is no need for such things but there are more important things and well one of those is to get ppl to actually create games with T3D, its not just there to be admired ...

#14 That looks real good. Seriously. But what I'm only trying to say is, after the important stuff, after the things needed, we should work on this. Why? Because it makes Torque3D better. That's all I'm want to do at this point. It looks hecka good, just need a few upgrades... (like the material editor, no nodes at all).

BTW: Can I use that pack in commercial work? Just wondering.

#15 yes you can, Ron Kapaun was that kind to release his stuff under Public Domain CC 0 License.

Am not saying that noone should work towards the things you mentioned, it took almost a year to get ppl to realize what the move of T3D from a commercial Engine to a MIT Licensed one means.

Am seeing many more ppl joining these forums/ simply because T3D is what it looks like - a solution for ppl/ independant Game Creators or startup Companys. Its a way to concentrate on the - Game and not on paying subscriptions or License fees. Sure within time the engine will move towards eye candy and new features.

I would just give it some time, you can work for example on 1 of the things you listed and others will do the same, it just takes time and manpower. Dont get lost in the sea of - i want feature x, especially since for example we still have no mainstream solution for saving/ loading games. The reason why am mentioning this is simply to make something clear. There is still alot that needs to be done.
Anyways just pick a item from your list and work on it/ others might just join and who knows maybe within time there will be a T3D Fx Branch.

#16 For what you said, that's what I meant to say. It doesn't need to be done right away, but we should consider adding these to Torque3D. No doubt its a long way, but it should be done sooner or later.

I didn't mention this on the list, but I may of found a way to port to consoles. Using a C++ Flash compiler, I can compile the Torque3D code into Flash. Keep in mind one MUST use OpenGL, for most devices and DirectX on Xbox. Other API's can be wrapped into the code if needed. Using flash, all one would have to do is create a script that runs that flash file as "a game." In other words, the game would only be a browser that runs the flash file and brings up the game. Unlike Torque3D's current solution of a simple JavaScript file which would run an .exe, it would run natively on many other devices. Also, the code can then be converted to HTML5 code later. HTML5 would open an even bigger usage and could run on almost every device. What do you think?

Take a look at crossbridge, https://github.com/adobe-flash/crossbridge.
It's a C++ to Flash compiler. If I'm right, after some work, we might be able to port Torque3D to flash, ultimately allowing it to run on much more platforms! Then the flash to HTML5 branch should be run, allowing us to get it to HTML5 to run on iPads or iPhones. I know this is a long way off, but it should be worth it nor or later on.

#17 And that's what I was saying when I mentioned the The Feature Request Page. That is where the committee goes to find out what the community would like to see added most or first - but it's up to the community and not some paid team to get them implemented because we don't have a paid team.

Ultimately, if you have good artists you can pull off 85% of the visual quality that the top end AAA games show with what we already have. If you're not an artist (or can't get one) then all of the features you have listed (and any you care to extrapolate until the end of time) won't help - polishing a turd just gives you a shiny turd. I have always found that T3D can produce good visuals and effects but I can't - I'm not a skilled 3D artist. On the flip side, many people have shown that if you have skilled artists you can make T3D look really good. So what we have here is the ages-old maxim that skill trumps features in almost all cases - having awesome features usually only serves to point out the flaws of an unskilled artist instead of hiding them. What it comes down to is that without a significant budget and the management infrastructure necessary to bring a team together and build a game you won't crank out a AAA title regardless of what engine you use and what features it has. Not that you can't make a solid game that looks and plays great, you just need the right talents and they really don't all reside in one person.

And name one AAA game that just used an engine "off the shelf" - no tweaking or adding features. So, no programmers. Name one, and the engine they used.

#18 All the stuff in the list would be great to see but you are trying to compare a small opensource game engine to commercial games engines that where developed by large teams and sometimes with ridiculously large budgets.

There is a good reason an engine like CryEngine is expensive to use, it took years of development by some really talented programmers and would have cost a hell of a lot of money to develop. Even if you have a small team of say 5 programmers working full time on a product, do the math what that would cost per year ;-) I can assure you, these companies have a lot more than 5 people working on them too.

You can't expect a small group of guys here working part time (i should say free time) to match those big industry heavyweights.

#19 Nonetheless T3D is one of the best engines I've used. IMO, the art pipeline is easy, maybe not so much setting up a character but adding in random static shapes, I can't think of a engine that is easier!
Graphic wise, it uses a technique that alot of modern/next gen engine(s) use (pre-pixal lighting). With the refactoring of the DX 9 pipeline and the soon to be added DX 11, it'll open up alot of the eye candy you see in some of the newer games..
Like what was mention above, creating a game takes a number of factors. You have the engine it's self but you would also need strong art, scripts, and etc...
With all the different development branches going on I would just focus on the game at hand. Like Ron told me monthes ago, you could block out your missions/stages and use placement art first. You can always go back and replace the art with the final art later in development. The main focus should be on the gameplay, get the game to play the way you imagine in your head. Test the gameplay make it fun, not just for you but others that test it out. Once you have a solid game, then start adding in the final art...
That's what we are doing, and has been working out pretty good for the most part. Though for our project we start on the art part of things years ago, so we are just a few models away from being completely done with the final art, next we'll be focusing on getting the character(s) rigged and animated. That's another topic!!!
Just my two cent but I agree some of those things you mention would be great to have in T3D at some point in the future but those are not really needed to create a good game(s) now..