Some thoughts on the T3D community size

#1 Before showing off, we should probably get something to show off...

#2 Imo we got plenty to show off, Frozen Endzone, Airship Dragoon, Tower Wars, this video from JR Wilde. And I guess thats just a scratch in the surface. Ron Kapaun created a lot of quality videos showing off T3D's graphics with his model packs. If we mix T2D in (hybrid advertisement) we got SPAZ, Frozen Synapse etc. Plenty of stuff to show off.

#3 Based on emails I receive from "unknown" people in the community I'm sure the number is much larger. The tricky conundrum is how to define "active".

I'm fairly "active" in and for the community... but I have to admit to not checking out the magazine.

Commercially I have zero interest in any of the art packs out there. No matter how cool or great I think someone's work is. I've yet to find any that fits the unique style I'm looking for in my game(s). I'd like to support all of the stuff out there but it is simply not economically feasible if I'm not going to use it... and I'm sure others out there feel the same based on the ratio of sales vs praise that we all see

#4 @Michael thats interesting, I have always thought of peoples behaviour on the internet as very curious, and opening links which they have no intention on actually using but just opening them because it's free and they can. Thats why I suggested it'd be a rough estimate.

Also ofc it's only gonna be a fraction of the community that will buy the art packs / add-ons being released, the issue is getting that denominator big enough so that it can be viable developing stuff for T3D.

Tbh I gained virtually nothing from selling the IPS (good thing I don't really need a big return on that product since I mostly released it for experience and future reference) it was in no way worth the time I spent on it except for the fact that I can use it in my own games, so I'm not regretting creating it.
If you write up something, solely for the purpose of releasing it as an add-on or pack, you will not be able to generate enough revenue to run a sustainable business unless you expand to Unity (which IMO is pretty cumbersome for code/script-based packs)

#5 @Lukas: Sort of the way I feel about the performance of MAP/DWP. The concept behind those two packs were pretty solid I thought, and while I did generate some return on the work I put into it, it was nowhere near what I was "hoping" for, but it was a good experience for myself in terms of learning how to set up the marketing end of the engine and not to mention the pack itself has some pretty killer and needed features for my own projects.

In terms of actually "building" this community, we need something "big" to show T3D for, and I'm not saying that to put down what has already been released, but we need to get something out there to deliver a stronger "message", something to break the common misconceptions that were unfortunately put in place by the Unity & UDK communities such as the FPS only, and bad performance barriers that new developers are looking for. We have a major potential here with the access to engine source and MIT license, but I think something actually needs to be done with it in order to bring in people. There's a few projects out there right now that have potential, and I'm even working on my own project that I'm hoping can get T3D "recognized" a bit more.

I've been thinking a bit about this and I have come to a solid conclusion and idea. We need to get our developers active together and make something "big" happen. I'd be willing to provide my pack to anyone who wants to take this initiative forward in the name of actually getting us recognized by more people. With an active and popular project out there, I think T3D would get recognized more. Secondly (and I think T3D 4.0 is handling this), we absolutely need to break the FPS only notion that many think T3D is locked on. Get some minds together and make an RTS game, heck even something as simple as T3D Chess would be cool, we just need to get something out there...

Building the game would honestly only be the first part, the second thing we need to do is get this game on something like steam greenlight. Expose T3D to a very large and active community, and show people what T3D can actually do. I think once you get all of those aspects in place, you'll be building a much larger community and rally even more support for initiatives such as the Linux/OpenGL port, heck, maybe we might even grab the attention of some Graphics programmers willing to do a DX11/DX12 upgrade.

#6 It makes you wonder how GG survived by selling engine licenses. Where are those people now? Did they buy it and never return? I know the IAC fiasco did lose a lot of people, but surely.

A more useful figure might be provided by GG's internal analytics, which I'm sure they were providing at some point in the past, 'cause I remember people discussing them. Maybe they did it once for a specific thing. But Lukas, I know I definitely don't browse the way you do ;).

Robert: a large project is all well and good but I think for myself I'd prefer to be working on smaller projects. Maybe it's just me, but I find myself very flighty when it comes to inspiration, so I've realised that if I don't get something done fast, I won't get it done at all. Ergo, I will be focusing on producing several small games using Torque. But IMO the amount of hobbyists in this community who focus on their large ideal dream-games are one reason why there hasn't been much output. Not criticising that - I was one of those until I realised I was never going to finish the thing - but just saying that smaller projects might give us a chance to actually produce stuff.

T3D chess would be an awesome way to demonstrate how to use the engine for simple stuff, and stuff that's not a shooter! Why do we have no simple chess example?

Anyway, I don't want to discourage anyone from launching a full-on game initiative. But the idea's been discussed before, and we don't have a good track record, as a community, of finishing major projects. IMO. As far as I can tell. I'm happy to be proved wrong about that!

#7 Speaking strictly for myself, the approach I'm taking is knocking out fully fleshed out, but small games and tossing back what and where I can. (With the occasional experiment or observation.)

It's a game engine. It needs to be used for making games. If the majority of usage is selling fixes for flaws or oversights to folks hoping to complete something... that's not a good place to be in.

#8 Lukas,

I want to throw in my 2 cents on this. I think your numbers are off by quite a bit actually. Here is the thing, as you know, I have been here for quite a long time.

In my opinion, our community is MUCH larger than we can accurately forecast by just checking single static numbers. As an example, let's use my web site. Now, there are only 3 places on the web that I advertise my site on a regular basis, Garage Games, YouTube, and LinkedIn. (I know I should use Farcebook, but I just can't bring myself to do it.) Anyway, I get on average 15 to 40 hits a day over the past year... this is EVEN when I don't update things often. The majority of my traffic is referred from here (Garage Games) or YouTube with Garage Games being the highest number. Of that 15 to 40 hits, over 50% are NEW viewers. (all according to stats that I track.) This means to me that around 40% of these new viewers come from here (once you take out the numbers for new IP addresses etc.

I actually have a neat little tool that can average that information out based on an algorithm some major nerd created (thanks nerds everywhere.)

Now, my initial problem (I am also willing to bet you have done the same as well) I assumed, since I am sort of 'popular' and my products are good, that everyone checks out everything. This is just not true. Your magazine was GREAT, in fact I recommend you do another. In doing another, you might see your initial numbers rise from 160 to even higher numbers. Word of mouth takes time. Put it this way, (I don't like going public with this stuff but, I have too at this point.) The Conifer Pack sold LIKE MAD! Its the only pack that I can honestly say I made a profit on. I firmly believe it's because it was more 'universal' in appeal. Your magazine has the same appeal but, not EVERY 'active' member of the community probably knows about it yet. I really do think our 'active numbers' are far better than we all think.

The problem, we don't know what these active members want. In Michael's case, it's a perfect example for me. I have NOT created a pack that he wants or needs. Not his issue, it's mine. (which is why I started doing independent contracting.) If you only got 160 unique visits, maybe it was because your magazine is new and people don't know about it yet. Or, god forbid, you did not have something in the magazine that 'developed interest'. This does happen. Don't take that comment personally.

As for those that are out there that are NOT interested in the community (and there are many). They are interested in using T3D as the tool it is to make their game. They are not really interested in the 'community' aspect. I understand that and I accept it. It's a 'free' engine, so there really is NO incentive to participate and we make a HUGE mistake by assuming membership here means commitment to improvement. Trust me there are probably 100s of people that visit Unity, Unreal, and all the other engines that feel the same way.

Anyway, I am thinking our community is much larger than any one number can accurately reflect. Our mistake is to assume that everyone WANTS what we have to offer.

Oh yeah... on a side note... Thanks for the positive comments about the videos and stuff I do! I also give ANYONE permission to use them in whole or in part as advertising for T3D and this great community. This means ANYONE. Just don't claim they are yours ;-). If you want the original files for these videos let me know. I keep everything (I am a virtual hoarder)You can contact me via my profile info if you need the source stuff.

Lastly, I know I said I was not doing 'freebie' work. However, I am willing to work a good professional promo video for T3D if anyone wants one. I personally think we need a 'THIS IS TORQUE' video.

Ron

#9 exactly right @Azaezel
and tbh people already understood that this is not just a FPS Engine

There are enough examples to proof this and the times are over where one could hope to take some kind of pack and slap it in and its done.
Am sayin this as i had to learn that, currently am sorta reinventing the wheel.
The stuff i hoped to get/ i didnt - so it was time todo it myself.

And i will say it again it is still a bit early - the community will grow as soon as some noticeable projects go live and that new age of T3D should start later this year.

Regarding the work that the T3D Steering Comitee is doing, its the best we can get - instead of blindly throwing stuff in, they actually look whats best and that its setup correctly
(even if some of us dont agree in some points, this is the way it is!)

and community contributions - only because atm not much is going on
doesnt mean that it will stay this way

"Let it roll, make your game and throw somethin back if you think you can enhance T3D!"

#10 I think J0linar is right.

The funny thing is I would say the games that have had the most impact using the Torque Engine's aren't FPS!

But I don't think people recongise that its from this engine.

I think we need a return to the picture/video/blog of the week/month sort of thing, so people can see the best of Torque games always hanging about.

I am trying to do much the same as Daniel, the best I have ever done with Torque engines was small games, something I pushed out straight away. The dream games are huge and as you work on it each part needs to be perfect because of how high you want the game to be.

I think we need a tech demo, so you can download T3D and get the existing levels and more. Kind of like what UDK has. Small levels showing off snowing, rain, lightning, landscapes, indoors, combined and then the prototypes for different game types.

The Unity crowd is huge and most are making the small games, if we can show that those games can be done with T3D with full score code etc, full rendering, free and no royalties.

We don't need to change T3D to be competitive with Unity, we are really above it, more in line with CryEngine and UDK. But that community is a piece we want and we can get by showing the games they make in that can be done in T3D and already are partly there for them.

I'm going to try and get a few proto-type games done. As I think this is a big pull. Why do people make mods still when they can use a free game engine like T3D? Because the foundations are already there for that game type.

#11 Hell, I know I bought licenses for TGE, TSE (later TGEA), T3D at the $1000 point (with a discount - but still $600), several art packs and Torsion. Still some packs and tools on my wish list, too. I'm glad that everyone who as put something on the store has done so and I regret that I cannot afford to start a studio with all of you in it. There has been a ton of great work done for pay and for free here and those who contributed all of it have my thanks. But you're right - you can't make a living with this alone.

As far as getting the Unity crowd, I think we are always going to have to really help out the less technically savvy people. And I'm sure that the great majority of Unity users fall into that group. This is going to drive people away and there's nothing we can do about it. People like Ron have put in the time to learn the tech skills needed to bring his art into the engine, but he's an oustanding example - most won't show that kind of dedication.

Torque is (and has always been) very crunchy - the tender gums of the masses are too delicate to handle it.

And for tech demos, I'm working on a secret project (ok, it's not a secret, but almost no one knows about it) and I'll drop the scripts and source changes on GitHub when I release the game ( hopefully before I die of old age ).

#12 The question is more who would be willing to help in a community project. Some kind of community project was also my first intention when learning Torque3D, but then realized that it is hard to find people for it and for one alone it is just too much work.
I released my first tries in art and level design, since I was not satisfied with the quality and style and started over.
When I find some time I will try a relaunch, but since I am more an artist there would be scripters/coders needed to make it work and some people working on the community project or at least use parts of it in their projects, otherwise you will see people using artwork intended for Torque using in every engine, just not in Torque, I have no problem with that, but this will not serve the original purpose.

#13 I'm still quite new but let me add in my few cents as well

I am using Torque 3D purely for the Oculus Rift and that's about it.

Now you can say I'm biased cause i'm only using it for the rift and that's fine but I think there is a huge potential for T3D to be one of the best engines for Virtual Realtiy.

I do think that the oculus community is the perfect way to get recognition of the engine and to bring more active members and buyers for the packs as well.

I have purchased quite a few of the packs on here for the games I wanna make and still have a list of many more that will be purchased over the coming months as well.

As a newb I can say that working on T3D has been fun but it's also not a simple engine to jump into as compared to unity.

Now unity is the defacto for most oculus guys but the price tag is the killer (We got free 3 month trials for rift use with unity) and T3D is where most of the guys and gals would go too once unity trials run out.

I have been doing my best to get more rift guys here on the forums and using T3D and it seems to slowly be working but the main issue i'm getting is people trying to adapt to the system and how to do simple things which for myself has been hard with limited documentation and the search used for this site.

Now i'm not complaining I Love T3D but for a new user it's been an interesting quest so far and helping other people i keep coming over the same few issues.

But to get to the main point I think for T3D to become more popular the oculus community is a great way to go forward or at least include but there are still limitations like not being able to use water in levels and the glow effect etc there are these small things that just don't work with the rift mode that has stopped a lot of people from checking it out.

If these and templates can be made for T3D (I know templates are being made which is great) and it's marketed to the oculus community I think it will bring in more users and revenue for the asset guys as well.

Just showing off an asset i brought on GG to a few of the guys on Twitch.tv in rift mode has convinced them to put it in there list of purchasing.

The oculus community is pretty small @ 20,000 dev kits in the world and the r/oculus subreddit has 12,401 registered people and 80% have been interested in making something for the rift and these aren't even games some people just want to create an environment to walk through and experience it with the rift.

I think the main thing that will entice people is tutorials or templates for different games etc and adding rift in there would be a big push i believe (I'm doing my best to make a few rift specific templates myself)

#14

Quote:Torque is (and has always been) very crunchy - the tender gums of the masses are too delicate to handle it.

I hope that's not a euphemism for it being poorly polished. Which, IMO, it is. Which, IMO, is a major reason people aren't really taking it seriously.

#15 Hey Lukas,

Something I have been thinking about too, and just jumped into my web stats for torqueterrains.com after reading this thread.

You cant go off gg blog or forum feedback, they are much quieter now than I remember them being... my blog's had 26 posts and probably half of them were me lol... In the past 31 days I have had 129 unique visitors and 147gb bandwidth usage, 4 bothered to register even though its not required, and 4 have donated which is a brucey bonus none the less. Very little feedback about the maps etc apart from the first day when I didnt put the materials.cs into the map packs, since fixing that have had no comments about the maps or textures at all.

Although I havent advertised the site at all as Its still having the base content added, I will probably give it a push at some point and maybe port the maps to unity too but keep the torque "branding" as its my preferred engine.

#16 I too think the number is much larger. I didn't read the magazine for one. I'm sure it's top notch quality, but it's just not my type of medium.

#17 Maybe relevant: T3D has 600 forks on GitHub.

EDIT: Also, as soon as I can, I'm going to hit up Reddit with relevant announcements. /r/gamedev and /r/t3d for starters.

#18 Possible, depends really how people use the forks, or if they even use github once they have the core installed, i for one dont... I just use the client locally to make my art work, thats all really, the odd bit of code dabbled with but thats not my thing...
Torques definitely a more coder aimed engine in my opinion, with the source access being one of the main "selling points", the art side of things is usable, but i dont think it is intuitive to the masses...

Every community has its quiet stalkers, hell it was a couple of years before I started posting stuff, I had to feel more confident with the engine before I started contributing... and there is probably alot around on here that just quietly keep to themselves and not post becase they are feeling their way around still, learning the engine before they feel a part of it ... and i think that is probably a very high percentage of the 'community'
Its a shame in a way that theres no stats at the base of the gg forums, like with the old vb boards that showed amount of guests, users etc that are logged in...

#19 The ones that managed to fork it on GitHub could be considered the professional user core group, since most fail at that point. ;)

#20 @Daniel - I wasn't referring to polish, just that it's very "technical" and the masses are not. Think science versus arts.... When you find yourself reading questions like "What is AI?" on the forums you know you've got a broad swath of people from all sorts of backgrounds and they want to make a game - but have no idea what that entails. Torque is not very forgiving of these types.