Mega-Terrains...? Are they viable? Do they exist?
by K. Silver · in Torque 3D Professional · 07/26/2013 (5:15 pm) · 11 replies
I have been reading about mega-terrains and other techniques for large terrain game fields. Unfortunately, most of what I have found is severely dated and for older versions of Torque. So, I am uncertain what can actually be accomplished with large-terrains or how I should be implementing them.
The questions boil down to these:
1-Can torque handle large terrains?
2-Is the 10,000 unit distances still the maximum practical distance due to calculation errors thereafter?
3-In connection with large terrains, can smaller terrains be built then imported to a larger playing field, allowing for a larger playing field to be patch-worked together over time?
4-I have noticed that 2048 seems to be the largest implementable playing field so far, but there are notes abounding about 4096 distances. How can one implement the higher values?
5-Is there a way to graft different levels together (truly) seamlessly such that a larger playing field appears to exist? This would preclude, of course, falling through errors at the seams.
A-I am aware that changing the meters per unit changes the over all distance.
B-I am also aware that the scale of objects can be reduced to emulate large dimensions.
There are a number of applications that would be enriched by long distance game play including an addition of V-2 Rocket-like warfare, long and large car racing, massive battle maps, just to name a few. I'd like these options to be available to me in my toolchest of abilities with Torque. So, any help there, guys?
The questions boil down to these:
1-Can torque handle large terrains?
2-Is the 10,000 unit distances still the maximum practical distance due to calculation errors thereafter?
3-In connection with large terrains, can smaller terrains be built then imported to a larger playing field, allowing for a larger playing field to be patch-worked together over time?
4-I have noticed that 2048 seems to be the largest implementable playing field so far, but there are notes abounding about 4096 distances. How can one implement the higher values?
5-Is there a way to graft different levels together (truly) seamlessly such that a larger playing field appears to exist? This would preclude, of course, falling through errors at the seams.
A-I am aware that changing the meters per unit changes the over all distance.
B-I am also aware that the scale of objects can be reduced to emulate large dimensions.
There are a number of applications that would be enriched by long distance game play including an addition of V-2 Rocket-like warfare, long and large car racing, massive battle maps, just to name a few. I'd like these options to be available to me in my toolchest of abilities with Torque. So, any help there, guys?
#2
'MegaTerrains' in the TGEA sense were just 4 terrains stitched together. you can technically make as large a terrain as you want in T3D, however as you have mentioned, accuracy starts to get a bit wonky around 8-10k units from origin, and you start to get the shakes from some z-fighting...
Ive made 16k x and 32k maps before, to see how they are, you kinda lose detail though, thats from a 4096 heightmap too, as you are stretching it from 4 to 8 meters per pixel. the space is incredibly huge too, and from experience, you will never be able to fill that map out anyway, and have a game running at the same time, just too many resources required.
Zoning is still the way to go, even wow etc use zoning, its just done on the fly, unfortunately something t3d doesnt have...
in all honesty, a 4k or 8k map is probably ample space for what you need anyway...
07/26/2013 (7:03 pm)
Terrain master's a paging system chris is working on from satellite data'MegaTerrains' in the TGEA sense were just 4 terrains stitched together. you can technically make as large a terrain as you want in T3D, however as you have mentioned, accuracy starts to get a bit wonky around 8-10k units from origin, and you start to get the shakes from some z-fighting...
Ive made 16k x and 32k maps before, to see how they are, you kinda lose detail though, thats from a 4096 heightmap too, as you are stretching it from 4 to 8 meters per pixel. the space is incredibly huge too, and from experience, you will never be able to fill that map out anyway, and have a game running at the same time, just too many resources required.
Zoning is still the way to go, even wow etc use zoning, its just done on the fly, unfortunately something t3d doesnt have...
in all honesty, a 4k or 8k map is probably ample space for what you need anyway...
#3
Also about zoning then the cook book mention something on page 86 about zone techniques and how such zones prevent everything from rendering as long one has not entered that zone yet(something I have yet to try as I am not using a mega huge world for now when creating levels).
The biggest problem with big worlds is how to populate it and make it interesting.
So yes big terrain for sure, but use zoning and in my experience create a project without PhysX.
07/27/2013 (6:06 am)
I have made a 104+ square kilometers huge worlds in L3DT and exported them into Torque 3D as well just for fun it works well but some times the ground terrain will have holes that a player fall through(with PhysX enabled but a project without PhysX seems to work flawless). Also about zoning then the cook book mention something on page 86 about zone techniques and how such zones prevent everything from rendering as long one has not entered that zone yet(something I have yet to try as I am not using a mega huge world for now when creating levels).
The biggest problem with big worlds is how to populate it and make it interesting.
So yes big terrain for sure, but use zoning and in my experience create a project without PhysX.
#4
They have some additional logic at zone boundaries that makes it look seamless, but you're actually switching server when you move between the continents.
07/27/2013 (6:13 am)
What most people don't expect though is that even WoWs landscapes are smaller than 10k meters in x/y. They're even on the same physical server.They have some additional logic at zone boundaries that makes it look seamless, but you're actually switching server when you move between the continents.
#5
Now that is cool craftsmanship :o)
07/27/2013 (6:16 am)
Quote:They have some additional logic at zone boundaries that makes it look seamless, but you're actually switching server when you move between the continents.
Now that is cool craftsmanship :o)
#6
07/27/2013 (6:39 am)
Youre reading on the wrong kind of zones there Dwarf King, those zones are from DIF interiors, there is a new zoning tool in T3D to create the same thing for DTS shapes, thats not the same as what i mean by zoning with worlds/terrains.
#7
As I wrote I haven't tried using it yet. I was thinking that the technique could be used for forcing the engine into not rendering what was inside the "zone box" and save memory as one moves around.
Well I guess that idea went down the... Thanks for letting me know before I would start a huge experiment :o)
Do you have any good links to the zoning with world/terrains? I have only found some here and there her on these forums.
07/27/2013 (6:53 am)
Quote:Youre reading on the wrong kind of zones there Dwarf King, those zones are from DIF interiors, there is a new zoning tool in T3D to create the same thing for DTS shapes, thats not the same as what i mean by zoning with worlds/terrains.
As I wrote I haven't tried using it yet. I was thinking that the technique could be used for forcing the engine into not rendering what was inside the "zone box" and save memory as one moves around.
Well I guess that idea went down the... Thanks for letting me know before I would start a huge experiment :o)
Do you have any good links to the zoning with world/terrains? I have only found some here and there her on these forums.
#8
07/27/2013 (7:10 am)
Look at occlusion blocks if thats what you were thinking for with those zones. Although they will stop anything rendering behind them, including the terrain
#9
So that is why the mountains in LOTRO pops up in the background out of nowhere even on the highest setting :o)
Awesome! Thanks :o)
Update;
Occlusion Volumes
Torque 3D - Zones and Portals - Part1
Torque 3D - Zones and Portals - Part2
Hope the OP can use it as much as I will :o)
07/27/2013 (7:55 am)
Quote:Look at occlusion blocks if thats what you were thinking for with those zones. Although they will stop anything rendering behind them, including the terrain
So that is why the mountains in LOTRO pops up in the background out of nowhere even on the highest setting :o)
Awesome! Thanks :o)
Update;
Occlusion Volumes
Torque 3D - Zones and Portals - Part1
Torque 3D - Zones and Portals - Part2
Hope the OP can use it as much as I will :o)
#10
Sorry, I don't mean to sound incredibly negative. But this is a very persistent game development myth that somehow stays alive despite being utterly false.
07/27/2013 (8:02 pm)
Quote:B-I am also aware that the scale of objects can be reduced to emulate large dimensions.No. Sadly this is not the case in Torque or in any other game engine based on floating-point arithmetic.
Sorry, I don't mean to sound incredibly negative. But this is a very persistent game development myth that somehow stays alive despite being utterly false.
#11
07/28/2013 (1:02 am)
My plan is to have 64km2 when finished. To maintain a reasonable resolution for the terrain I have chosen to link the levels, placing triggers on the sides to load the connected level. I started with a baseTexSize of 4096 (possible in 1.1), quickly went to 2048 after performance issues and now ended up with 1024 with a squareSize of 2. You see, once adding dense vegetation and other loads of various props to populate these vast terrains, then the limits will be very clear: all shown in FPS. I use a low visible distance (default 700m for a 2km2 terrain) to optimize it a bit. When creating a dessert or mars like landscape you would have other limits of course :) 
Raster Ron
I'm just new here so I was actually looking for this same thing before. I read somewhere that this was a feature (Atlas) of the old TGE/TGEA version.
Couple of months ago I found Chris's T3D Terrain Master, link here and the github page.
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/22029
github.com/ChrisCalef/T3DTerrainMaster
Haven't tried it yet but I'm sure it's worth checking out.
Hope this helps.