A slightly unfortunate attitude....
by Richard Ranft · in General Discussion · 07/11/2013 (2:16 pm) · 102 replies
This quote sums up neatly many posts I've been reading over the last few months:
I'm not picking on anyone in particular - this just seemed to capture the spirit of several statements that have popped up lately.
Lead, follow or get out of the way. The Steering Committee has been having trouble motivating anyone to fix almost anything, though almost everyone is ready to complain about something. There are noticeable exceptions - thank you very much to those who are actively working on fixes or improvements (whether for pride or profit). To everyone else - if you're not going to work on fixing something that bothers you then at least file an issue on GitHub and actively help whoever is working on that issue to track it down and test fixes.
Unlike the situation when GarageGames sold the engines commercially, you are all now in a position to contribute fixes. You are also no longer in a position to complain to anyone about issues - it's open source, it belongs to everyone, so fix it. If you make a cool improvement and you feel you need to charge for it go ahead, but be ready for the crazy flood of people whining about your new bugs - I guarantee there will be some.
One thing I cannot argue with from that quote is that the consequences of making these engines open source are indeed unpredictable. I, like others who were there at the time, believed that this community could pick up and move forward with the engines. I still believe it, but if you're not going to help then don't stand around and complain. Pitch in!
Everyone reading this has the ability to help in some way. Don't be afraid to lend a hand - the Steering Committee is working diligently to ensure that all of the pull requests are solid and that they fit into place snugly.
Thanks for your time. I hope no one is offended, but I also hope that more people will step forward to help find and track bugs and fixes rather than spend their time griping about them.
Quote:Off topic, however in my opinion, I could be wrong, because I am not the master of the truth, but delegate the bugs fixing and the development of a complex software as a game engine on the shoulders of his community, believe me or not, is an extremely risky decision, with unpredictable consequences, unfortunately.
I'm not picking on anyone in particular - this just seemed to capture the spirit of several statements that have popped up lately.
Lead, follow or get out of the way. The Steering Committee has been having trouble motivating anyone to fix almost anything, though almost everyone is ready to complain about something. There are noticeable exceptions - thank you very much to those who are actively working on fixes or improvements (whether for pride or profit). To everyone else - if you're not going to work on fixing something that bothers you then at least file an issue on GitHub and actively help whoever is working on that issue to track it down and test fixes.
Unlike the situation when GarageGames sold the engines commercially, you are all now in a position to contribute fixes. You are also no longer in a position to complain to anyone about issues - it's open source, it belongs to everyone, so fix it. If you make a cool improvement and you feel you need to charge for it go ahead, but be ready for the crazy flood of people whining about your new bugs - I guarantee there will be some.
One thing I cannot argue with from that quote is that the consequences of making these engines open source are indeed unpredictable. I, like others who were there at the time, believed that this community could pick up and move forward with the engines. I still believe it, but if you're not going to help then don't stand around and complain. Pitch in!
Everyone reading this has the ability to help in some way. Don't be afraid to lend a hand - the Steering Committee is working diligently to ensure that all of the pull requests are solid and that they fit into place snugly.
Thanks for your time. I hope no one is offended, but I also hope that more people will step forward to help find and track bugs and fixes rather than spend their time griping about them.
About the author
I was a soldier, then a computer technician, an electrician, a technical writer, game programmer, and now software test/tools developer. I've been a hobbyist programmer since the age of 13.
#82
@Ron, I won't miss you!
Well... maybe a little bit :-P
Seriously, I read your post 4 times and don't see any reason to ban you for it. Relax, take a drink and a deep breath! I don't think it's worth getting a high blood pressure over this.
07/23/2013 (10:37 pm)
Since there's no 'like' button I'm going a bit off topic...@Ron, I won't miss you!
Well... maybe a little bit :-P
Seriously, I read your post 4 times and don't see any reason to ban you for it. Relax, take a drink and a deep breath! I don't think it's worth getting a high blood pressure over this.
#84
07/23/2013 (11:38 pm)
So, hey. When are you guys going to add math functions to get the target spot on a sphere that would send it in the direction I want it to move when struck by a rocket? And to move my AI units to be able to hit said spot if they're not in line-of-sight of it? And provide a set of stock character models that might just happen to fit my game exactly? Do I have to make a feature request?
#86
That said, @Ron
I wouldn't say you wouldn't be missed. More or less the only reason I haven't nabbed your stuff is because nothing I'm working on needs it right now. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the work being done.
Also, if you're frustrated with the calls for 'Y U NO MAK 4 FRE' here, you'll hate it pretty much everywhere. This is not at all the only community that does that, and from what I've seen about online, GG's community is actually better about it than most. That said, yeah there's lots of calls for free crap, but when isn't there ;)
I totally concur about the 'I've spent a lot of money blah blah blah' excuse. I've bought every iteration of TGE/TGEA/T3D as well as pro versions for T2D. I've put in a lot of cash into the engine over the years, but I've spent even more 'money' on it via my time. Haven't complained.
I may not have always agreed with the decisions, but I like the engine - for all it's quirks.
As for the other stuff, I can't really attest to not having much recognition about stuff, as I haven't put as much out there as I probably could/should.
I understand the feeling of wanting recognition. That said, NEVER feel that because people THINK it should be free, that they're necessarily correct. Put a price you feel is reasonable for the work. If people like it, or need it, they'll find the cash to spend on it. Don't let a handful of people yipping about freebies ruin you on that.
In the end, it's like Ron said - if it doesn't serve your needs. Don't get or use it. If it CAN serve your needs, work with it.
If it doesn't serve your needs but you complain about it endlessly anyways, well...you basically just made a youtube comment.
And isn't that really what game development is all about? ;)
07/24/2013 (4:08 am)
I vaguely recall someone made an oblique reference to the theoretical possibility of suggesting to put to vote that Torque should have a built-in coffee maker. Why hasn't anyone made that yet >:(That said, @Ron
I wouldn't say you wouldn't be missed. More or less the only reason I haven't nabbed your stuff is because nothing I'm working on needs it right now. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the work being done.
Also, if you're frustrated with the calls for 'Y U NO MAK 4 FRE' here, you'll hate it pretty much everywhere. This is not at all the only community that does that, and from what I've seen about online, GG's community is actually better about it than most. That said, yeah there's lots of calls for free crap, but when isn't there ;)
I totally concur about the 'I've spent a lot of money blah blah blah' excuse. I've bought every iteration of TGE/TGEA/T3D as well as pro versions for T2D. I've put in a lot of cash into the engine over the years, but I've spent even more 'money' on it via my time. Haven't complained.
I may not have always agreed with the decisions, but I like the engine - for all it's quirks.
As for the other stuff, I can't really attest to not having much recognition about stuff, as I haven't put as much out there as I probably could/should.
I understand the feeling of wanting recognition. That said, NEVER feel that because people THINK it should be free, that they're necessarily correct. Put a price you feel is reasonable for the work. If people like it, or need it, they'll find the cash to spend on it. Don't let a handful of people yipping about freebies ruin you on that.
In the end, it's like Ron said - if it doesn't serve your needs. Don't get or use it. If it CAN serve your needs, work with it.
If it doesn't serve your needs but you complain about it endlessly anyways, well...you basically just made a youtube comment.
And isn't that really what game development is all about? ;)
#87
Yes he wants and also two extra large cheeseburger and all for free :o)
And I agree with Ron, either use T3D or don't. Oh and that drink I really could use so why not.
07/24/2013 (4:56 am)
Quote:I will get right on that. Did you want fries with that? LOL
Yes he wants and also two extra large cheeseburger and all for free :o)
And I agree with Ron, either use T3D or don't. Oh and that drink I really could use so why not.
#88
07/24/2013 (5:28 am)
Ok, looks like everyone got their venting out of the way. Anyone have new suggestions on what can be done to improve the future of Torque as an open-source collaboration? Not asking for feature requests or system changes. We have enough of those threads and the wish list. 
#89
Thanks for bringing it back, Mich ;). I think something like Trello would be a grand start - the community wiki page is nice, but since we can't actually edit the thing it's a bit less of a working tool for us than a publication the committee can update.
Does Trello integrate with GitHub? One great thing about GH's issues is the way everything links automatically. I do miss my old Trac/SVN days though, where you could close tickets directly from commit messages...
07/24/2013 (5:48 am)
Ron, you would be sorely missed around here. Just thought I'd say.Thanks for bringing it back, Mich ;). I think something like Trello would be a grand start - the community wiki page is nice, but since we can't actually edit the thing it's a bit less of a working tool for us than a publication the committee can update.
Does Trello integrate with GitHub? One great thing about GH's issues is the way everything links automatically. I do miss my old Trac/SVN days though, where you could close tickets directly from commit messages...
#90
I've also been conflicted about time and effort vs reward, but I see it this way. Yes, I spent $$ on the original all the way up to MIT. Look at the profile, and for what ?? It was STILL the cheaper engine on the market that was still capable. So, even if some of the features from the previews didn't make it, I could still add it if I wanted it. So, money well spent... Couldn't purchase unreal for anywhere near that cost, no matter though.
I look at the MIT as a gift. Sort of this way.
"For you chum"
Now I have freedom to do anything to it I wish, even if people disagreed because now it really wouldn't affect them. :) For any amount of extraneous effort a dev would put in, I don't expect anything back for free. You really can't. If I see someone like Ron pushing packs, I take a look at them, and if I like them I try to pick them up. There is one thing about game development people seriously need to realize. It's not FREE. EVER. You either pay for someone else's time, putting in your own time or taking a shortcut somewhere your going to regret later. Either way, somewhere you pay for it.
You can complain about bugs all day long. All software is not created equally and every single one of them is bug ridden. Hell, I'm writing this on Windows. You know that virus that acts like an OS? Want to count the bugs in that thing, yet people seem to miss that one? Any complex software will have them and MIT is much better than even 1.2 on bug fixes.
All I want to see happen is for people to understand the 10k hours to be a pro issue. It's more true than it's not. I can not tell you enough, how much of a difference there is between someone who has spent that amount of time working and learning, than from someone who has only spent even a quarter of that time. There isn't going to be a make my game button and I sincerely hope there never will be. As a society, we shouldn't be condoning the thoughts of give me now for no effort and should be pushing the pickup a wrench and learn it mentality instead. All I ask is that you try to learn, if you want to make it, you need to. Otherwise your setting an unrealistic expectation.
I have to side with the sentiment of, if you don't want to learn how to do it and just complain something isn't getting done, please go.. Or don't go, just stop jumping on people who are trying to do something. There are much more constructive things to do with your time. Otherwise your just trolling.
Another thing is NO developer doing any work, in their spare time or otherwise, should ever have to face not being payed for their work. I'm contributing because I want to . No one is forcing me to. I honestly think some things could be better, so I'm fixing it in the time I can get, sometimes even forcibly (on the time issue).
It's never an easy road, but people be sincere, but honest and be realistic. You can't possibly expect that everyone is going to see things your way 100% of the time. It's impossible. At least I can appreciate that.
Ok, I'm going back into my dark corner now.
Update after posting (Note I started writing before the thread was brought back to point, not intending to hijack or derail the thread again)
For things that could help, I think just a single tracking point would be the best solution. Right now there is information spread out everywhere and that's not that helpful. Also possibly improving the forum search so that T3D isn't mixed in with TGEA threads. I know sometimes it applies but I think for new users it can be confusing. For the steering committee, I think if we added a seat for someone to just document it could be a lot more helpful in time.
07/24/2013 (5:59 am)
Throw me into the paid for bucket as well. Though it never stopped me from changing something I didn't agree with.. That's kind of the point. I'll admit, I wasn't happy when it went MIT.. ALTHOUGH I'm an idiot at times. Sooooooo... take that for whatever it may be (we're talking a total of 3 hours of time here folks, nothing major). Here's a point about MIT.. Your no longer held to a restrictive license. Not if you sell X units, etc. Point me another pro level game engine (not rendering framework) that does this? I also subscribe to the if it doesn't fit your needs, change it. If it can't fit your needs it's not the right tool for you at that time. The engine is fairly flexible in this. Yes, it takes getting your brain wrapped around how it's structured but I have some news for you... If you can't do that, your not going to make it developing a game unless it's maybe a hidden object game or simple click here, do this game. Not trying to be a jerk here, just understand that there is a wealth of knowledge your trying to skirt that at some point is going to slam into your face like a brick wall.I've also been conflicted about time and effort vs reward, but I see it this way. Yes, I spent $$ on the original all the way up to MIT. Look at the profile, and for what ?? It was STILL the cheaper engine on the market that was still capable. So, even if some of the features from the previews didn't make it, I could still add it if I wanted it. So, money well spent... Couldn't purchase unreal for anywhere near that cost, no matter though.
I look at the MIT as a gift. Sort of this way.
"For you chum"
Now I have freedom to do anything to it I wish, even if people disagreed because now it really wouldn't affect them. :) For any amount of extraneous effort a dev would put in, I don't expect anything back for free. You really can't. If I see someone like Ron pushing packs, I take a look at them, and if I like them I try to pick them up. There is one thing about game development people seriously need to realize. It's not FREE. EVER. You either pay for someone else's time, putting in your own time or taking a shortcut somewhere your going to regret later. Either way, somewhere you pay for it.
You can complain about bugs all day long. All software is not created equally and every single one of them is bug ridden. Hell, I'm writing this on Windows. You know that virus that acts like an OS? Want to count the bugs in that thing, yet people seem to miss that one? Any complex software will have them and MIT is much better than even 1.2 on bug fixes.
All I want to see happen is for people to understand the 10k hours to be a pro issue. It's more true than it's not. I can not tell you enough, how much of a difference there is between someone who has spent that amount of time working and learning, than from someone who has only spent even a quarter of that time. There isn't going to be a make my game button and I sincerely hope there never will be. As a society, we shouldn't be condoning the thoughts of give me now for no effort and should be pushing the pickup a wrench and learn it mentality instead. All I ask is that you try to learn, if you want to make it, you need to. Otherwise your setting an unrealistic expectation.
I have to side with the sentiment of, if you don't want to learn how to do it and just complain something isn't getting done, please go.. Or don't go, just stop jumping on people who are trying to do something. There are much more constructive things to do with your time. Otherwise your just trolling.
Another thing is NO developer doing any work, in their spare time or otherwise, should ever have to face not being payed for their work. I'm contributing because I want to . No one is forcing me to. I honestly think some things could be better, so I'm fixing it in the time I can get, sometimes even forcibly (on the time issue).
It's never an easy road, but people be sincere, but honest and be realistic. You can't possibly expect that everyone is going to see things your way 100% of the time. It's impossible. At least I can appreciate that.
Ok, I'm going back into my dark corner now.
Update after posting (Note I started writing before the thread was brought back to point, not intending to hijack or derail the thread again)
For things that could help, I think just a single tracking point would be the best solution. Right now there is information spread out everywhere and that's not that helpful. Also possibly improving the forum search so that T3D isn't mixed in with TGEA threads. I know sometimes it applies but I think for new users it can be confusing. For the steering committee, I think if we added a seat for someone to just document it could be a lot more helpful in time.
#92
In the creative industry (and other) are websites for crowd sourcing pretty common. Here are lots of parties with wishes to improve or extend the engines. I believe there are enough who are willing to pay for it (me included). The possibility to use a system something like a crowd sourcing website for small projects could increase enthusiasm among developers. Once a part has been developed (or fixed) and paid by a group; this should be offered to the committee to judge if it should be implemented into a MIT version.
---
@Ron; I hope you understood I was being sarcastic in an attempt to relativize. Knowing you're one of the few who wrote positive about me, I'll be one of the last who wants to see you go!
07/24/2013 (7:53 am)
Had this idea on my mind for some time (probably others as well). It's just an idea so don't shoot me for ventilating...In the creative industry (and other) are websites for crowd sourcing pretty common. Here are lots of parties with wishes to improve or extend the engines. I believe there are enough who are willing to pay for it (me included). The possibility to use a system something like a crowd sourcing website for small projects could increase enthusiasm among developers. Once a part has been developed (or fixed) and paid by a group; this should be offered to the committee to judge if it should be implemented into a MIT version.
---
@Ron; I hope you understood I was being sarcastic in an attempt to relativize. Knowing you're one of the few who wrote positive about me, I'll be one of the last who wants to see you go!
#93
It's a hard nut to crack, and I'm excited when it happens. But it's rare.
07/24/2013 (8:23 am)
GG and community members have worked with crowdfunding before. It's an extremely difficult subset of an extreme niche of the crowdsource populace to fill. Since there are relatively few software developers backing projects there, and even fewer backing a subset like games. It's even more difficult to target a further subset: those who will crowdsource a free, open source project.It's a hard nut to crack, and I'm excited when it happens. But it's rare.
#94
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/22364
It is based upon a Wordpress plugin designed to create lists of links. The best feature of the plugin is that is can export/import the entire set of links. So if we needed to put this list in another non-wordpress website the worst case is that a data converter would have to be written. So this list once built, will have some longevity.
07/24/2013 (10:43 am)
Quote:Right now there is information spread out everywhere and that's not that helpful.I am trying to address this issue. I built a list on my website outlined here:
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/22364
It is based upon a Wordpress plugin designed to create lists of links. The best feature of the plugin is that is can export/import the entire set of links. So if we needed to put this list in another non-wordpress website the worst case is that a data converter would have to be written. So this list once built, will have some longevity.
#95
@Nils, figured you were being sarcastic. No worries. And with your art skills, ya don't need me anyway ;-)
And thanks Mich for bringing the conversation back around. Obviously, there are some issues that need real fixes.
I am all about reworking the the searching issue. I have been around for awhile and I can honestly tell you that I get confused at times when trying to figure out if a solution was for TGE, TGEA, T3D and all of it's forms.... I can see why many new people get frustrated and just ask the same questions over and over. There is a cool little feature for searching the resources section, where you can specify and filter only certain engines.....
@Demo, I like that idea. I think the community could really benefit from a bit of consolidation. I know Lukas started a 'video tutorial' list. Might be something to highjack into your system. I also have tons of stuff as well. Big thing is making sure everyone knows how to get to this list, and maintaining it. Blogs, forums, even resources eventually get buried. What can we do to make this a 'non vanishing' tool?
Ron
07/24/2013 (11:18 am)
Heck, I ain't going anywhere just yet. Sometimes ya just get frustrated hearing the same stuff over and over and over. Thanks for the support all. I will play nice again :-). Sorry.@Nils, figured you were being sarcastic. No worries. And with your art skills, ya don't need me anyway ;-)
And thanks Mich for bringing the conversation back around. Obviously, there are some issues that need real fixes.
I am all about reworking the the searching issue. I have been around for awhile and I can honestly tell you that I get confused at times when trying to figure out if a solution was for TGE, TGEA, T3D and all of it's forms.... I can see why many new people get frustrated and just ask the same questions over and over. There is a cool little feature for searching the resources section, where you can specify and filter only certain engines.....
@Demo, I like that idea. I think the community could really benefit from a bit of consolidation. I know Lukas started a 'video tutorial' list. Might be something to highjack into your system. I also have tons of stuff as well. Big thing is making sure everyone knows how to get to this list, and maintaining it. Blogs, forums, even resources eventually get buried. What can we do to make this a 'non vanishing' tool?
Ron
#96
07/28/2013 (5:09 am)
Torque is carrying a lot of baggage. Might it be worth rebranding and relaunching it with a new name, website and mission?
#97
Now that the engine is MIT, absolutely nothing can stop any user from rebranding the engine. Anyone can create a new website, rename the engine, close the source, make some changes, and "launch" the engine fresh.
07/28/2013 (5:22 am)
Quote:Torque is carrying a lot of baggage. Might it be worth rebranding and relaunching it with a new name, website and mission?This topic has come up a few times at GarageGames. We've had lengthy meetings weighing the pros and cons of rebranding. When we were still licensing the engines, the cost and effort of rebranding everything was always too high for our small outfit. Additionally, anyone with technical savvy would quickly identify the engines as Torque and we'd be fighting the same battle all over again.
Now that the engine is MIT, absolutely nothing can stop any user from rebranding the engine. Anyone can create a new website, rename the engine, close the source, make some changes, and "launch" the engine fresh.
#98
there a couple of Engines that got born since T3D went MIT
what shouldnt be expected is that those remain MIT
along with that
if someone wants to attempt a rebranding
it is not only about the name
its about the looks the feel the guts
and at the end after changing those things
how much Torque is left?! exactly not enough to identify it as T3D
...and yes this is how opensrc works sometimes, especially since its MIT licensed
if it where GPled - that would be a total different thing
but it isnt and ppl shouldnt feel dissapointed
if the features they expected to get MITed dont arrive as expected
there are always reasons why and why not
and sooner or later they might just arrive
but since the most ppl that are using T3D - are actually using it
to create a game(s) at least thats my understanding.
Why even bother? take T3D and make your game!
In the process if you want to share something, you are welcome todo
and instead of focusing on Engine related stuff
focus on your game - this way you can do good not just for yourself
but for the image of the Engine
i have read many posts and threads here that deal with the Engine
but i feel kinda dissapointed when it comes to Game/ Project showcases
there arent many - so i wonder for what ppl are really
using their time?
07/28/2013 (6:09 am)
that is already happeningthere a couple of Engines that got born since T3D went MIT
what shouldnt be expected is that those remain MIT
along with that
if someone wants to attempt a rebranding
it is not only about the name
its about the looks the feel the guts
and at the end after changing those things
how much Torque is left?! exactly not enough to identify it as T3D
...and yes this is how opensrc works sometimes, especially since its MIT licensed
if it where GPled - that would be a total different thing
but it isnt and ppl shouldnt feel dissapointed
if the features they expected to get MITed dont arrive as expected
there are always reasons why and why not
and sooner or later they might just arrive
but since the most ppl that are using T3D - are actually using it
to create a game(s) at least thats my understanding.
Why even bother? take T3D and make your game!
In the process if you want to share something, you are welcome todo
and instead of focusing on Engine related stuff
focus on your game - this way you can do good not just for yourself
but for the image of the Engine
i have read many posts and threads here that deal with the Engine
but i feel kinda dissapointed when it comes to Game/ Project showcases
there arent many - so i wonder for what ppl are really
using their time?
#99
07/28/2013 (6:38 am)
Sure everyone can take things under a liberal open source license, use and even sell it, while never giving anything back, but the arguments for a liberal license are, that even though this is possible, this will motivate copycats to try the same and so it will not be much profitable anymore and the content got spread while this has happened, so this is still in the mind of open source. 
#100
08/19/2013 (12:25 pm)
After Dave and I just spent almost an hour making "simple" updates to the community contributions page on our wiki we had a thought to actually try the whole Trello thing instead of dismissing it as "extra work"... 5 minutes later we are sold on it -- so it's now a thing, a work-in-progress... 
Torque Owner Richard Ranft
Roostertail Games
I have to agree about working for a "thank you" - there are a lot of people in these forums who have contributed freely to solve others' problems with no more than the occasional "thanks" as payment. You're all welcome.
I'm always happy to see a cool new feature added for free, but I'm also just as happy to sit down and work out how to add my own features if I really want them.
Git is difficult? Try StarTeam - the absolute worst versioning system in existence.... Git took me a few days to get accustomed to, StarTeam is still pissing me off after three months.