A slightly unfortunate attitude....
by Richard Ranft · in General Discussion · 07/11/2013 (2:16 pm) · 102 replies
This quote sums up neatly many posts I've been reading over the last few months:
I'm not picking on anyone in particular - this just seemed to capture the spirit of several statements that have popped up lately.
Lead, follow or get out of the way. The Steering Committee has been having trouble motivating anyone to fix almost anything, though almost everyone is ready to complain about something. There are noticeable exceptions - thank you very much to those who are actively working on fixes or improvements (whether for pride or profit). To everyone else - if you're not going to work on fixing something that bothers you then at least file an issue on GitHub and actively help whoever is working on that issue to track it down and test fixes.
Unlike the situation when GarageGames sold the engines commercially, you are all now in a position to contribute fixes. You are also no longer in a position to complain to anyone about issues - it's open source, it belongs to everyone, so fix it. If you make a cool improvement and you feel you need to charge for it go ahead, but be ready for the crazy flood of people whining about your new bugs - I guarantee there will be some.
One thing I cannot argue with from that quote is that the consequences of making these engines open source are indeed unpredictable. I, like others who were there at the time, believed that this community could pick up and move forward with the engines. I still believe it, but if you're not going to help then don't stand around and complain. Pitch in!
Everyone reading this has the ability to help in some way. Don't be afraid to lend a hand - the Steering Committee is working diligently to ensure that all of the pull requests are solid and that they fit into place snugly.
Thanks for your time. I hope no one is offended, but I also hope that more people will step forward to help find and track bugs and fixes rather than spend their time griping about them.
Quote:Off topic, however in my opinion, I could be wrong, because I am not the master of the truth, but delegate the bugs fixing and the development of a complex software as a game engine on the shoulders of his community, believe me or not, is an extremely risky decision, with unpredictable consequences, unfortunately.
I'm not picking on anyone in particular - this just seemed to capture the spirit of several statements that have popped up lately.
Lead, follow or get out of the way. The Steering Committee has been having trouble motivating anyone to fix almost anything, though almost everyone is ready to complain about something. There are noticeable exceptions - thank you very much to those who are actively working on fixes or improvements (whether for pride or profit). To everyone else - if you're not going to work on fixing something that bothers you then at least file an issue on GitHub and actively help whoever is working on that issue to track it down and test fixes.
Unlike the situation when GarageGames sold the engines commercially, you are all now in a position to contribute fixes. You are also no longer in a position to complain to anyone about issues - it's open source, it belongs to everyone, so fix it. If you make a cool improvement and you feel you need to charge for it go ahead, but be ready for the crazy flood of people whining about your new bugs - I guarantee there will be some.
One thing I cannot argue with from that quote is that the consequences of making these engines open source are indeed unpredictable. I, like others who were there at the time, believed that this community could pick up and move forward with the engines. I still believe it, but if you're not going to help then don't stand around and complain. Pitch in!
Everyone reading this has the ability to help in some way. Don't be afraid to lend a hand - the Steering Committee is working diligently to ensure that all of the pull requests are solid and that they fit into place snugly.
Thanks for your time. I hope no one is offended, but I also hope that more people will step forward to help find and track bugs and fixes rather than spend their time griping about them.
About the author
I was a soldier, then a computer technician, an electrician, a technical writer, game programmer, and now software test/tools developer. I've been a hobbyist programmer since the age of 13.
#2
I think the reason we see comments like that is because people are still thinking T3D/T2D as a paid for product. They don't understand the dynamics of an Open Source project. It is for similar reasons companies allow people to run beta software of commercial programs at a discount. So the users can find the bugs.
07/11/2013 (3:37 pm)
Quote:delegate the bugs fixing and the development of a complex software as a game engine on the shoulders of his communityThis exactly what we want. Man, when I released my Python interface the users found a whole ton of problems almost right away. That is THE reason to release a resource that might be useful to other users. The community will see and find issues I could not. It is a way to leverage your own time, give back, and leverage the time of the community in a win-win situation.
I think the reason we see comments like that is because people are still thinking T3D/T2D as a paid for product. They don't understand the dynamics of an Open Source project. It is for similar reasons companies allow people to run beta software of commercial programs at a discount. So the users can find the bugs.
Quote:so fix itYes sir!
Quote:and to all the ... great people who are working on great or small improvements to the engine.. THANK YOU!Second.
And to the Steering Commitee, you are doing a great job!
To everyone else.. What Richard said.
#3
Ron
07/11/2013 (3:58 pm)
Well put and very clear. Let's get out of the 'wait until THEY fix it' mode and start figuring it out. I am totally on board with Richard, Lukas, and Demo!Ron
#4
I'd love to have more time to work on bug fixing in the Torque codebase myself, but I'm happier being employed and my new job has me frantically learning to deal with an antiquated build system across four flavors of Linux. Can we say "busy as a millipede at a toe-counting contest?"
07/11/2013 (4:35 pm)
And now that I'm off of my soap box I'd like to tell all of you new people out there who have suffered through my terse responses to your questions that yes, I'm always that grouchy. But if you follow that link to the documentation and read all of it two things will happen: you will answer your simple questions and you will come up with newer, more interesting ones. And if you follow the stuff that I respond to you'll find that I'm much more enthusiastic about trying to answer the new and interesting ones....I'd love to have more time to work on bug fixing in the Torque codebase myself, but I'm happier being employed and my new job has me frantically learning to deal with an antiquated build system across four flavors of Linux. Can we say "busy as a millipede at a toe-counting contest?"
#5
07/11/2013 (5:18 pm)
Hear, hear!
#6
Ron
07/11/2013 (5:39 pm)
Can we call this the "Grumpy Old Timers Advice Post?" :-) Oh and yeah....I agree....READ THE DOCS.... it would answer 90 percent of those 'I wanna build a game but, I guess I need to learn to read first' questions.Ron
#7
Hmmm... maybe I could start working on docs.
07/11/2013 (5:41 pm)
Unfortunately, there are those of us who don't bitch and moan (at least, not publicly) and are willing to contribute, but whose skillset doesn't mesh with what's needed. That's more frustrating than reading rants from impatient people. Do we need a replacement for the Empty Terrain level? That's what I can contribute. Although I don't recall anyone ever asking for a new Empty Terrain.Hmmm... maybe I could start working on docs.
#8
I may not be exceedingly well at C++ code, but at least I am trying to find problems I'm capable of fixing, and for the ones that I'm clueless on (IE: querySingleServer, TCPObject), I try to get conversation started such that I can at least try to find what may be the source of the problem.
Very well stated, and I hope that this gets noticed by people.
07/11/2013 (6:01 pm)
I love this attitude here. We definitely need to get the community into this mode.I may not be exceedingly well at C++ code, but at least I am trying to find problems I'm capable of fixing, and for the ones that I'm clueless on (IE: querySingleServer, TCPObject), I try to get conversation started such that I can at least try to find what may be the source of the problem.
Very well stated, and I hope that this gets noticed by people.
#9
I think the Community Contributions page is a great first step because it offers some direction for folks looking to get involved. This page and the Features Requests & Suggestions page needs to be advertised in big, bold letters at every opportunity.
Also, the barrier to entry in terms of getting code 'out there' is still too high. There needs to be a "Torque-ified" github tutorial that teaches people the basics. They should be able to setup repos, push, pull and partake in other misc. githubbery after reading it. I believe Daniel started on something like this but I'm not sure if/where it was posted. Assuming he completed it, it should be advertised in the same big, bold letters at every opportunity.
07/11/2013 (8:35 pm)
Yep, that's the right attitude to have. In order for the engines to be successful long-term, community involvement has to come up across the board. I think the Community Contributions page is a great first step because it offers some direction for folks looking to get involved. This page and the Features Requests & Suggestions page needs to be advertised in big, bold letters at every opportunity.
Also, the barrier to entry in terms of getting code 'out there' is still too high. There needs to be a "Torque-ified" github tutorial that teaches people the basics. They should be able to setup repos, push, pull and partake in other misc. githubbery after reading it. I believe Daniel started on something like this but I'm not sure if/where it was posted. Assuming he completed it, it should be advertised in the same big, bold letters at every opportunity.
#10
For example to get OGRE you go to www.ogre3d.org, to get Blender you go to www.blender.org, to get Torque 3D you go to ... garagegames.com. And what you see there: "Products", "Store", "Paid Support". I know its not a serious issue, but it affects people perception.
Torque Script is essential to Torque, but to develop with it you should buy Torsion. Year ago when i started out, i explored free alternatives, but they wasn't accessible or adequate enough.
Theres a great deal of documentation, but its for commercial versions of the engine.Its "all in one place", searching site its hard to discern whats no longer relevant for Torque 3D MIT and what still is.
Thats just not something people expect from an open source project. Torque 3D is no longer a commercial product its true. And it should not be treated as such. But its still not a complete open source project, at least not in the community's eyes.
I'm not complaining or anything, i just think this opinion is important enough to be heard.
07/12/2013 (4:24 am)
I think theres is a simple explanation for this attitude, its the attitude of garagegames towards the community. As it seems to me, creating open source project is not as simple as putting code on github.For example to get OGRE you go to www.ogre3d.org, to get Blender you go to www.blender.org, to get Torque 3D you go to ... garagegames.com. And what you see there: "Products", "Store", "Paid Support". I know its not a serious issue, but it affects people perception.
Torque Script is essential to Torque, but to develop with it you should buy Torsion. Year ago when i started out, i explored free alternatives, but they wasn't accessible or adequate enough.
Theres a great deal of documentation, but its for commercial versions of the engine.Its "all in one place", searching site its hard to discern whats no longer relevant for Torque 3D MIT and what still is.
Thats just not something people expect from an open source project. Torque 3D is no longer a commercial product its true. And it should not be treated as such. But its still not a complete open source project, at least not in the community's eyes.
I'm not complaining or anything, i just think this opinion is important enough to be heard.
#11
We still have content packs that no longer support T3D out of the box in the store.. some are still TGE/A for an engine that is no longer available (only those that bought it), for a newbie to convert one of those packs is a mean task in its own right, but we need to see the store more available to everyone worldwide to contribute art and code packs for it to really be supported (free or paid) - a bit like code canyon. The community can't do it on their own as they have their own projects to worry about. This will fill the gap. We need hundreds of items, not just a few dozen.
Paid support on the GG site to me looks like an option for indies with large budgets, something smaller one man studios cannot afford unless you have just won the lottery, or inheritance from a long lost uncle.
On the engine, the only down side to making large structural changes is that every piece of content detailing how things work in books and GG site then goes out of date or becomes very confusing, even more so to the newbie, so you may as well start from scratch or be prepared to spend hours and hours working it out. We don't want the scenario where an engine looks good, but it confuses the person that gives it a try or is badly supported and gives up. What if all the die hard Torque developers that help people in the forums vanish, then what do we have left?
07/12/2013 (4:52 am)
I'm all for this and eager to contribute as time permits, but there needs to be a few changes on the website for it to be more viable for me to make it happen.We still have content packs that no longer support T3D out of the box in the store.. some are still TGE/A for an engine that is no longer available (only those that bought it), for a newbie to convert one of those packs is a mean task in its own right, but we need to see the store more available to everyone worldwide to contribute art and code packs for it to really be supported (free or paid) - a bit like code canyon. The community can't do it on their own as they have their own projects to worry about. This will fill the gap. We need hundreds of items, not just a few dozen.
Paid support on the GG site to me looks like an option for indies with large budgets, something smaller one man studios cannot afford unless you have just won the lottery, or inheritance from a long lost uncle.
On the engine, the only down side to making large structural changes is that every piece of content detailing how things work in books and GG site then goes out of date or becomes very confusing, even more so to the newbie, so you may as well start from scratch or be prepared to spend hours and hours working it out. We don't want the scenario where an engine looks good, but it confuses the person that gives it a try or is badly supported and gives up. What if all the die hard Torque developers that help people in the forums vanish, then what do we have left?
#12
Oh on the engine:
It works fine for me as it is in Torque 3D MIT 2.0 condition hooked up with a AFX 2.0 which makes my engine in use NOT MIT as such(which complicates the thing a little if I have to make a contribution as my engine is Torque 3D/AFX). I therefore only spend time implementing features and doing level design at this time.
I am of course grateful for all the contributions and shall when possible submit any needed changes to the MIT engine on github.
" What if all the die hard Torque developers that help people in the forums vanish, then what do we have left?"
Never ever will happen.
07/12/2013 (5:46 am)
Richard new job, David Montgomery new job... What in hell is happening here? Are all the great GG people leaving the ship? Oh on the engine:
It works fine for me as it is in Torque 3D MIT 2.0 condition hooked up with a AFX 2.0 which makes my engine in use NOT MIT as such(which complicates the thing a little if I have to make a contribution as my engine is Torque 3D/AFX). I therefore only spend time implementing features and doing level design at this time.
I am of course grateful for all the contributions and shall when possible submit any needed changes to the MIT engine on github.
" What if all the die hard Torque developers that help people in the forums vanish, then what do we have left?"
Never ever will happen.
#13
I think GG needs to possibly go over all the old contributions for the older engines and add something to the Search Engine that will allow me to search Torque3D only. With that said we will have a clear picture of what is missing, while code can be looked at and ported over it cannot be done by some joe smo like me, I need y'all-I have vision and the tenacity to get stuff done but without y'all my vision is only a rock drill.
Lastly, maybe I haven't seen it but I believe firmly there should be some sort of user contribution section on the site... to contribute map models/player models... let's encourage people to submit their work-not keep it shadowed.
If none of that made sense then I blame it on the oxycodone I'm on :)
07/12/2013 (7:29 am)
I completely agree with this mentality. Jules has said something important... A lot of what is going on in this website is confusion, working with Torque 3d is similar but different than the others. I think the quickest way to solve a problem is to identify it, and well you can't identify problems when you can't isolate which engine is problematic.I think GG needs to possibly go over all the old contributions for the older engines and add something to the Search Engine that will allow me to search Torque3D only. With that said we will have a clear picture of what is missing, while code can be looked at and ported over it cannot be done by some joe smo like me, I need y'all-I have vision and the tenacity to get stuff done but without y'all my vision is only a rock drill.
Lastly, maybe I haven't seen it but I believe firmly there should be some sort of user contribution section on the site... to contribute map models/player models... let's encourage people to submit their work-not keep it shadowed.
If none of that made sense then I blame it on the oxycodone I'm on :)
#14
07/12/2013 (8:27 am)
Where are the complaints? I haven't seen any.. 
#15
07/12/2013 (8:37 am)
@Stefan - I think it's a lot more of constructive criticism, as well as a massive amount of suggestions for improvements. There are entire blogs and threads that turn into a laundry list of Torque shortcomings and tech suggestions, even if the original topic is not related to it. The number of people suggesting vs the number of people contributing is absurdly unbalanced. So it's not necessarily whining or "this sucks", as much as "It would be great if it had this...let me know when it's done."
#16
07/12/2013 (8:57 am)
@Dwarf King - historically it already has.
#17
You clarified the issue with your last line.
This line pretty much covers a large part of the problem as well; 'The number of people suggesting vs the number of people contributing is absurdly unbalanced.'
It gets frustrating trying to figure out a path to change what is happening so, some of us 'vent' a bit and get a little grumpy.
Ron
07/12/2013 (9:05 am)
Thanks Mich, You clarified the issue with your last line.
This line pretty much covers a large part of the problem as well; 'The number of people suggesting vs the number of people contributing is absurdly unbalanced.'
It gets frustrating trying to figure out a path to change what is happening so, some of us 'vent' a bit and get a little grumpy.
Ron
#18
GarageGames' Obligation
This website. That's it.
Torque 2D/3D Steering Committee
This comes straight from the committee charter.
Vision: "We are dedicated to making the best core version of Torque 2D so that others can build upon a reliable foundation."
Mission: "To build a foundation for a sustainable environment that fosters collaboration and community development of the greatest open source development platform."
Torque Community
Consume and contribute to the actual engine.
I understand and agree that this website needs some modifications to make the above more clear. The T2D committee is launching efforts outside of this website to help with that, such as a Trello board, G+ community, and improving the GitHub page.
When it comes down to actual engine changes, that's solely on the community. GarageGames has no say or control over that. The steering committees act as gatekeepers, organizers, and cheerleaders. Community users are the ones that can make or break the engine's success. Three or four folks on the committee cannot handle all the coding, art, and evangelism.
When you see GarageGames employees, such as Dave or myself, contributing to the engine, we are doing so as community members. It just so happens that we are employees of GG and on the steering committees. At any point, that can change. In fact, Dave and I are actively working on another project for GG. If you check the logs, you will see that we haven't really made any changes to the repositories in a while. If this keeps up, Dave and I will likely have to find replacements for our roles in the committees.
The torch has been passed and Richard has posted an excellent and accurate perspective.
07/12/2013 (9:07 am)
Additionally, it's worth restating GarageGames' involvement with the Torque engines. Instead of covering the past, allow me to focus on the present and future. There are essentially three entities, each with a purpose.GarageGames' Obligation
This website. That's it.
Torque 2D/3D Steering Committee
This comes straight from the committee charter.
Vision: "We are dedicated to making the best core version of Torque 2D so that others can build upon a reliable foundation."
Mission: "To build a foundation for a sustainable environment that fosters collaboration and community development of the greatest open source development platform."
Torque Community
Consume and contribute to the actual engine.
I understand and agree that this website needs some modifications to make the above more clear. The T2D committee is launching efforts outside of this website to help with that, such as a Trello board, G+ community, and improving the GitHub page.
When it comes down to actual engine changes, that's solely on the community. GarageGames has no say or control over that. The steering committees act as gatekeepers, organizers, and cheerleaders. Community users are the ones that can make or break the engine's success. Three or four folks on the committee cannot handle all the coding, art, and evangelism.
When you see GarageGames employees, such as Dave or myself, contributing to the engine, we are doing so as community members. It just so happens that we are employees of GG and on the steering committees. At any point, that can change. In fact, Dave and I are actively working on another project for GG. If you check the logs, you will see that we haven't really made any changes to the repositories in a while. If this keeps up, Dave and I will likely have to find replacements for our roles in the committees.
The torch has been passed and Richard has posted an excellent and accurate perspective.
#19
To wrap things up - [i]cos I'm writing this BS on my mobile phone[I] - I want to contribute a new skin for T3D but I need a bit help with that. (See my only blog post).
Nils, in Northern China with a @$#Â¥!! crappie connection
07/12/2013 (9:12 am)
Dear Richard, Looks like a qoute in a possible bug post I made, not my qoute though, but I hope I didn't contribute to your grumpiness. Anyway, I saw a comment today like T3D being a 'programmers engine' and not a 'designers engine'.I think it reflects some of the mood with people who are not into coding, but have different skills and interests. I believe developing games requires a whole bunch of different skills. As a child I did start with coding in Basic on my C64. But my life did not went as you may predict it and ended up as a desinger anyway. Be able to read and write some doesn't make me a programmer. With every skill you have a focus to reach something. My focus is to make something look fantastic and others do different things, like making it all work for example. I'm personally not very interested in github. If I run into something I would like to share it with other disciplines, for me the forums is still the best tool available at this time. Aren't people who point out bugs important to you? I can imagine it's tiring sometimes. For me any input here is something to learn from, positive and negative.To wrap things up - [i]cos I'm writing this BS on my mobile phone[I] - I want to contribute a new skin for T3D but I need a bit help with that. (See my only blog post).
Nils, in Northern China with a @$#Â¥!! crappie connection
#20
Which ultimately is why I'm keeping my mouth shut right now. I don't have the time to contribute significantly right now so if I speak too much about problems or whatever, I'm just part of the problem too.
07/12/2013 (9:21 am)
I really do wish I had the time to contribute more... I have an absolute mountain of ideas I want to develop and get out there, but never enough time. Not even close. :( I too hate the mentality that it should all be done for them and handed over. They could get away with it a bit when Torque was paid for, but now as open source, there's no excuse to not be part of the solution.Which ultimately is why I'm keeping my mouth shut right now. I don't have the time to contribute significantly right now so if I speak too much about problems or whatever, I'm just part of the problem too.
Torque Owner Lukas Joergensen
WinterLeaf Entertainment
I'm always sorry I don't have more time to work on open source stuff, all I have time for atm is submitting the bugs I find while I work for WLE unfortunately. And being active on the forums, helping new people etc. ofc.
So to all you who port the engine to Linux and Max, to Jeff Raab who is working on a component system (which will be a community-buyout so be sure to pitch in when he publishes the funding campaign!) and to all the other great people who are working on great or small improvements to the engine.. THANK YOU!
And to the Steering Commitee, you are doing a great job!
To everyone else.. What Richard said.