How should we promote T3D?
by Lukas Joergensen · in Torque 3D Professional · 04/28/2013 (2:03 pm) · 170 replies
Ron started a discussion here after yet another awesome T3D-initiative went down the drain.
Tbh it's a shame we can't even raise 10.500$ for an Android and Linux port of T2D, thats a really cheap price for something that would benefit us all.
So the discussion is, how do we make more people aware of the T3D engine? It's a great engine, it's open-source and completely free, we just need to get the word out there and tell people how much T3D has evolved!
One of the ways we can do this is share!
Anyways will try to keep the topic-header clean, so... Discuss!
Tbh it's a shame we can't even raise 10.500$ for an Android and Linux port of T2D, thats a really cheap price for something that would benefit us all.
So the discussion is, how do we make more people aware of the T3D engine? It's a great engine, it's open-source and completely free, we just need to get the word out there and tell people how much T3D has evolved!
One of the ways we can do this is share!
Anyways will try to keep the topic-header clean, so... Discuss!
About the author
IPS Bundle available at: https://www.winterleafentertainment.com/Products/IPS.aspx
#162
1. A strong project lead will be absolutely necessary. With out someone driving the project, it can fall apart as quickly as a team is put together.
2. There are existing contributors to Legions, but none that can step up to handle the core engine port. The existing contributors will have to be included in all development changes.
3. The port from Juggernaut to Torque 3D will require a full mix of talent.
4. At first, all the heavy lifting will be on the C++ side. This will require competent Torque 3D developers with solid knowledge of engine modification. Having TGEA experience will be a bonus.
5. When the engine port is solid enough to start testing, those knowledgeable with TorqueScript, Legions code, and art modification will swoop in to start the conversion of maps, scripts, and models.
My best guess is that in addition to the existing team, the project will need to recruit a team lead, 2-3 C++ developers, 1-2 scripters, 1 artist.
08/08/2013 (6:50 am)
@Richard - It doesn't matter if it's an existing team/studio or just individuals picked from the community. After speaking with the project lead, here are some notes of interest:1. A strong project lead will be absolutely necessary. With out someone driving the project, it can fall apart as quickly as a team is put together.
2. There are existing contributors to Legions, but none that can step up to handle the core engine port. The existing contributors will have to be included in all development changes.
3. The port from Juggernaut to Torque 3D will require a full mix of talent.
4. At first, all the heavy lifting will be on the C++ side. This will require competent Torque 3D developers with solid knowledge of engine modification. Having TGEA experience will be a bonus.
5. When the engine port is solid enough to start testing, those knowledgeable with TorqueScript, Legions code, and art modification will swoop in to start the conversion of maps, scripts, and models.
My best guess is that in addition to the existing team, the project will need to recruit a team lead, 2-3 C++ developers, 1-2 scripters, 1 artist.
#163
Racing game
Strategy
Puzzle
RPG
There also needs to be a dedicated wiki which people can contribute to and build on. The current wiki has no real information at all and relies on git which is not good at displaying everything it needs to.
Torque 3D should be fully documented for tutorials, important threads, torquescript default functions and show how it all connects up. Something like what garrysmod has or what c4 engine has.
e.g.
http://wiki.garrysmod.com/page/Main_Page
http://www.terathon.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
08/09/2013 (8:12 am)
Torque 3D really needs to get some templates up to show the capababilities this engine has. There is already an FPS template but what about the other genres?Racing game
Strategy
Puzzle
RPG
There also needs to be a dedicated wiki which people can contribute to and build on. The current wiki has no real information at all and relies on git which is not good at displaying everything it needs to.
Torque 3D should be fully documented for tutorials, important threads, torquescript default functions and show how it all connects up. Something like what garrysmod has or what c4 engine has.
e.g.
http://wiki.garrysmod.com/page/Main_Page
http://www.terathon.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
#164
1. We need better starter tutorials:
* Most people who are coming into T3D are skilled in one specific area and one specific area alone. Unfortunately, it's not a good thing to be when a game requires much more. I propose the community comes together to start generating more resources/tutorials on the basics, such are scripting practices, basic C++ (for adding new libs and stuff), basic art (how to for player models(both FP & TP), guns, ect.). A Game engine that has good tutorials on how to get going will be more enticing for the new user.
2. We need to update the rendering:
* DX9 is great for backward compatibility, but if you look at all the other tech out there, they're running on OpenGL & DX10/11 (some DX12?), I think it's time we bring Torque into the current age and kick the dust off of the old rendering tech.
3. Performance isn't good:
* I can pretty much play any very nice looking EA/Source/UDK game on my less than amazing laptop without any performance lag at all, but in Torque even some basic stuff can cause some hideous lag. I think it's time we find out the culprit there and kill it. Some people think TS is the cause. I'm all for TorqueScript here, but if upgrading the system or switching to one that sees a major boost in performance exists, it needs to be done.
4. We need a visual demo:
* The only way to properly demonstrate a game engine, is to have something to show for it. We need to get some good demos out there, and I mean, get it out there. If it requires us to get our tech on Steam, Xbox, ect. Do it. The only way to get engine popularity is by showing everyone what Torque has to offer.
5. More activity here:
* I stop by these forums at least 3 - 5 times a day, and most of the times I stop by, I haven't seen any activity from the prior day but maybe one or two replies to some basic threads or something new in the general discussion. I know there's more people than what this is showing who are using Torque or come to these forums, we need to get everyone active to show a supportive community for new members.
6. Quicker Pull Responses:
* I'm not ranting on the committees or anything here, but this will feel the most "rantish" (my advisory has been posted). To me it seems the average time for at least a comment on a pull request is a week, and even then it's something like "where's the proof that 'x' bug exists" or "we need to see the value of 'x'", this isn't good. I think we need to improve readability a little bit here, this goes for both people sending in requests and the committees reading the requests. And I don't think it will hurt at least one of the committee members to go through the requests once or twice a day to see what is new, what has been changed and what is ready for addition, ect.
* For example, when submitting a change, there should be a link to the forums or a picture demonstrating the problem / new feature before the addition, and something to show after the addition, that way it will be pretty absolute to what the change is doing.
7. Very Outdated Systems Need to be Replaced
* This kind of speaks along the lines of #2 / #3. There are some old TGE/Tribes engine systems still present in T3D. I know programmers live and die by the "If it's not broken, don't fix it" logic, but someone pointed out a huge list of warnings generated by T3D. I think it's time we go through our engine's systems and gut and re-do the old technology. We will likely get a performance boost just by going through and fixing some bad programming practices inside.
That's all I've got for now, I think it's a pretty good start to go on.
08/10/2013 (6:13 pm)
Alright, I'll throw my few cents in here now. This topic has a great cause behind it, so I'll offer my suggestions that might help.1. We need better starter tutorials:
* Most people who are coming into T3D are skilled in one specific area and one specific area alone. Unfortunately, it's not a good thing to be when a game requires much more. I propose the community comes together to start generating more resources/tutorials on the basics, such are scripting practices, basic C++ (for adding new libs and stuff), basic art (how to for player models(both FP & TP), guns, ect.). A Game engine that has good tutorials on how to get going will be more enticing for the new user.
2. We need to update the rendering:
* DX9 is great for backward compatibility, but if you look at all the other tech out there, they're running on OpenGL & DX10/11 (some DX12?), I think it's time we bring Torque into the current age and kick the dust off of the old rendering tech.
3. Performance isn't good:
* I can pretty much play any very nice looking EA/Source/UDK game on my less than amazing laptop without any performance lag at all, but in Torque even some basic stuff can cause some hideous lag. I think it's time we find out the culprit there and kill it. Some people think TS is the cause. I'm all for TorqueScript here, but if upgrading the system or switching to one that sees a major boost in performance exists, it needs to be done.
4. We need a visual demo:
* The only way to properly demonstrate a game engine, is to have something to show for it. We need to get some good demos out there, and I mean, get it out there. If it requires us to get our tech on Steam, Xbox, ect. Do it. The only way to get engine popularity is by showing everyone what Torque has to offer.
5. More activity here:
* I stop by these forums at least 3 - 5 times a day, and most of the times I stop by, I haven't seen any activity from the prior day but maybe one or two replies to some basic threads or something new in the general discussion. I know there's more people than what this is showing who are using Torque or come to these forums, we need to get everyone active to show a supportive community for new members.
6. Quicker Pull Responses:
* I'm not ranting on the committees or anything here, but this will feel the most "rantish" (my advisory has been posted). To me it seems the average time for at least a comment on a pull request is a week, and even then it's something like "where's the proof that 'x' bug exists" or "we need to see the value of 'x'", this isn't good. I think we need to improve readability a little bit here, this goes for both people sending in requests and the committees reading the requests. And I don't think it will hurt at least one of the committee members to go through the requests once or twice a day to see what is new, what has been changed and what is ready for addition, ect.
* For example, when submitting a change, there should be a link to the forums or a picture demonstrating the problem / new feature before the addition, and something to show after the addition, that way it will be pretty absolute to what the change is doing.
7. Very Outdated Systems Need to be Replaced
* This kind of speaks along the lines of #2 / #3. There are some old TGE/Tribes engine systems still present in T3D. I know programmers live and die by the "If it's not broken, don't fix it" logic, but someone pointed out a huge list of warnings generated by T3D. I think it's time we go through our engine's systems and gut and re-do the old technology. We will likely get a performance boost just by going through and fixing some bad programming practices inside.
That's all I've got for now, I think it's a pretty good start to go on.
#165
I voiced an opinion of support for T3D and I think if a few other people can come in and give some good reasons for using it for 0x10c there's a decent chance that we can make an impact.
Check out this reddit thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/0x10c/comments/1k8pzr/why_start_an_engine_from_scratch_when_we_can/
08/12/2013 (4:56 pm)
Hello all! I'm sure many of you are aware of Notch's game 0x10c, he recently decided to let the community take over the project. Many people are arguing what engine to use or if one should be written from scratch.I voiced an opinion of support for T3D and I think if a few other people can come in and give some good reasons for using it for 0x10c there's a decent chance that we can make an impact.
Check out this reddit thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/0x10c/comments/1k8pzr/why_start_an_engine_from_scratch_when_we_can/
#166
You could also let them know that since T3D is MIT licensed they can part out what they want a leave what they don't want. The same goes for T2D.
08/12/2013 (6:20 pm)
@Triverske,You could also let them know that since T3D is MIT licensed they can part out what they want a leave what they don't want. The same goes for T2D.
#167
08/13/2013 (7:10 am)
That's going to be a really interesting project to follow. Best of luck with it, and the engine debate! Great to see Torque's MIT license acknowledged.
#168
That certainly will be interesting to see where that goes. I am a little taken back by the idea that a game company throws out a design spec for a game they now longer want to make, and a bunch of people jump on board as if it is a page out of the Bible or something. It is exciting to see the enthusiasm, but I wonder why someone else' vision is so compelling. I mean why wouldn't these same people pursue their own game vision in the first place?
@Triverske,
I did find it kind of amusing to read through the comments. A few people are saying that they felt like they would to need to write an engine from scratch (somewhat reasonable). Another person (you) proposed T3D and all of a sudden people are shouting it would require "extensive changes" to work for the game design. So, how is "writing from scratch" any different than "extensive changes"? People are funny to watch, especially when you have so many diverse backgrounds and personalities. I get the feeling when someone says it will require "extensive changes" that it means "I don't know anything about that piece of software".
08/13/2013 (11:53 am)
@dB,That certainly will be interesting to see where that goes. I am a little taken back by the idea that a game company throws out a design spec for a game they now longer want to make, and a bunch of people jump on board as if it is a page out of the Bible or something. It is exciting to see the enthusiasm, but I wonder why someone else' vision is so compelling. I mean why wouldn't these same people pursue their own game vision in the first place?
@Triverske,
I did find it kind of amusing to read through the comments. A few people are saying that they felt like they would to need to write an engine from scratch (somewhat reasonable). Another person (you) proposed T3D and all of a sudden people are shouting it would require "extensive changes" to work for the game design. So, how is "writing from scratch" any different than "extensive changes"? People are funny to watch, especially when you have so many diverse backgrounds and personalities. I get the feeling when someone says it will require "extensive changes" that it means "I don't know anything about that piece of software".
#169
08/13/2013 (3:50 pm)
Quote:I get the feeling when someone says it will require "extensive changes" that it means "I don't know anything about that piece of software".That's not entirely unreasonable! An engine as massive as Torque takes a lot of investment to master.
#170
We've got to risk implosion. We may explode into the biggest fireball this part of the galaxy has seen, but we've got to take that one in a million chance.
-By: Some storyline writer who William Shatner got famous for saying *I mean lets be honest... he's not the genius behind these words, just a face that got uglier as time went on*
Ok guys I looked at Torque3d.org and it is atrocious for what it could be... SOOOO I went ahead and purchased TORQUE3D.NET which we can collectively use. Whomever purchased Torque3d.com is a jerk but w/e... I'll begin work on the website tomorrow.
I'll be working from Drupal's CMS framework though *wordpress 3.6 ticked me off after it crashed my lethonline.com/next/ website... I'm attending a wordpress meetup in Cleveland to get this resolved soon hopefully*. I'll make a separate blog about this website so please don't clutter this area with my work.
Now for my .2 cents or possibly more.
I've touched on this several times. I posted a blog here: http://garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/22348
However this is simple, You can have YouTube video's and you can do tons of how-to tutorials but it's not going to help. We're losing the battle because we have no focal point to our spear. You can't spearhead the gaming world with a dull tip, and our tip is the FPS tutorial. This engine needs a flagship game, because this is a free Open source engine that means a free game. This engine is KNOWN for FPS through the Tribes2 game and Tribes 2 PS2 aerial assault *which I only played ONCE, on my brothers PC... I think GG should send me a PS2 to fill the hole in my life-kidding*
I'm currently working on a free2play FPS which I've recently renamed to Terran Assault(Terran Conflict is already out there as a sub-name to the X3 franchise), I'm recruiting for the development team and have a friend that is writing up a business model and proposition to start soliciting in the Houston area for Funding.
08/13/2013 (11:41 pm)
As CPT Kirk said *I googled this btw... I'm not that trekky*We've got to risk implosion. We may explode into the biggest fireball this part of the galaxy has seen, but we've got to take that one in a million chance.
-By: Some storyline writer who William Shatner got famous for saying *I mean lets be honest... he's not the genius behind these words, just a face that got uglier as time went on*
Ok guys I looked at Torque3d.org and it is atrocious for what it could be... SOOOO I went ahead and purchased TORQUE3D.NET which we can collectively use. Whomever purchased Torque3d.com is a jerk but w/e... I'll begin work on the website tomorrow.
I'll be working from Drupal's CMS framework though *wordpress 3.6 ticked me off after it crashed my lethonline.com/next/ website... I'm attending a wordpress meetup in Cleveland to get this resolved soon hopefully*. I'll make a separate blog about this website so please don't clutter this area with my work.
Now for my .2 cents or possibly more.
I've touched on this several times. I posted a blog here: http://garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/22348
However this is simple, You can have YouTube video's and you can do tons of how-to tutorials but it's not going to help. We're losing the battle because we have no focal point to our spear. You can't spearhead the gaming world with a dull tip, and our tip is the FPS tutorial. This engine needs a flagship game, because this is a free Open source engine that means a free game. This engine is KNOWN for FPS through the Tribes2 game and Tribes 2 PS2 aerial assault *which I only played ONCE, on my brothers PC... I think GG should send me a PS2 to fill the hole in my life-kidding*
I'm currently working on a free2play FPS which I've recently renamed to Terran Assault(Terran Conflict is already out there as a sub-name to the X3 franchise), I'm recruiting for the development team and have a friend that is writing up a business model and proposition to start soliciting in the Houston area for Funding.
#171
Perhaps talk to Nathan Martin about using .org domain.
08/13/2013 (11:51 pm)
@James,Quote:As for those of you who are wondering who is running Torque3D.org (and Torque2D.org) that is me....The domains are at the disposal of the Torque 3D and Torque 2D Committees.
Perhaps talk to Nathan Martin about using .org domain.
Employee Michael Perry
ZombieShortbus
A full plan hasn't been developed yet.