iTorque2D and Torque3D questions
by Alan Dawson · in General Discussion · 02/15/2012 (9:30 pm) · 5 replies
I have been evaluating engines for several weeks now while taking knowledge that I have had of them over the last several years. I noticed an unfortunate statistic when I looked at
Crytek SDK: July 2011
Unity 3 release: Late 2010
UDK: November 2009
Torque 3D Release: September 2009
iTorque 2D Release: 2007/2008? I could not find an exact release date.
I understand that base product release dates don't always mean a lot, the number of updates and often they are do though. While Unity 3 has been updated very often with their release of Unity 3.5 just happening and UDK has updates every month. With Torque3D not having releases very often and iT2D having releases seldom also, I was wondering if there could be a comment as to how many programmers are on the team? As someone who is going to purchase a license and base my game on the engine, I want to make sure that the engine is not at its end of life.
Having an up to date engine is important, as we all know the game development industry moves a million miles an hour and their are techniques always being created. Techniques from entities, supporting multiple mobile platform or multiple console platforms, to ways to handle input, things change. As the saying goes, "every few years 50% of what you previously knew doesn't matter anymore". Does iTorque3D or Torque3D get updated from a deep level enough or is the code evolved from the old TGE?
Wow, what a long post haha. I just have a lot of questions I guess, I am hoping to make a great game! One of the things I noticed that caught my eye was the post here http://www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/129748 . In it, Micheal Perry says there are 10 programmers working on a new internal product using iTorque2D. What does this mean for Torque3D though? Have more programmers been hired to support Torque3D and this new project? How many programmers are still working on Torque3D? It would be a shame to see GarageGames move away from making engines, I thought they pioneered the space with TGE. Not only what does this mean for Torque3D and iTorque2D but what does this mean for a new engine? Could there be an official statement for this as there was for iTorque2D? From looking at the employee blogs and for press releases there is no road map for what GarageGames is doing and only two engine updates since last summer.
Crytek SDK: July 2011
Unity 3 release: Late 2010
UDK: November 2009
Torque 3D Release: September 2009
iTorque 2D Release: 2007/2008? I could not find an exact release date.
I understand that base product release dates don't always mean a lot, the number of updates and often they are do though. While Unity 3 has been updated very often with their release of Unity 3.5 just happening and UDK has updates every month. With Torque3D not having releases very often and iT2D having releases seldom also, I was wondering if there could be a comment as to how many programmers are on the team? As someone who is going to purchase a license and base my game on the engine, I want to make sure that the engine is not at its end of life.
Having an up to date engine is important, as we all know the game development industry moves a million miles an hour and their are techniques always being created. Techniques from entities, supporting multiple mobile platform or multiple console platforms, to ways to handle input, things change. As the saying goes, "every few years 50% of what you previously knew doesn't matter anymore". Does iTorque3D or Torque3D get updated from a deep level enough or is the code evolved from the old TGE?
Wow, what a long post haha. I just have a lot of questions I guess, I am hoping to make a great game! One of the things I noticed that caught my eye was the post here http://www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/129748 . In it, Micheal Perry says there are 10 programmers working on a new internal product using iTorque2D. What does this mean for Torque3D though? Have more programmers been hired to support Torque3D and this new project? How many programmers are still working on Torque3D? It would be a shame to see GarageGames move away from making engines, I thought they pioneered the space with TGE. Not only what does this mean for Torque3D and iTorque2D but what does this mean for a new engine? Could there be an official statement for this as there was for iTorque2D? From looking at the employee blogs and for press releases there is no road map for what GarageGames is doing and only two engine updates since last summer.
#2
recently unity 3d has released so many updated version only for it's some critical bugs.there was very few new features.but still it is buggy.random crashes always happenings.and for some past limitation they still was not able to add in engine gui editor, which was expected 2 or 3 version earlier.i think u will see more updated version soon.
and udk recently has done many bug fix on iphone and android platform.also they have added some good 3rd party middleware intregation.they are working hard on that.and also they have money to give it free.
t3d is not closed source like unity and udk.i think that is why there is not too much updated version for it like unity and udk.
for t3d bug fixes always available in private forum.new features and options are always adding in resource section by forum memebers.
u do not have access on private section.so u have missed it.
the thing that i have missed in forum is too little contribution by GG developer's in resource section.after buying t3d may be i have seen only two resource by GG developers.and all of them may be for itorque
also there always happens a lot of time wastage for not having a patch fix for recent bugs.
after wasting a lot of time to fix any problem, when someone post the problem in forum for some solution and figure it out that it is an known bug,what kind of feeling a tired person can have?
not everyone have time and energy to read every thread post on detected bug and related fix.
02/16/2012 (10:33 am)
i always read about unity 3d and udk's latest release blogs.recently unity 3d has released so many updated version only for it's some critical bugs.there was very few new features.but still it is buggy.random crashes always happenings.and for some past limitation they still was not able to add in engine gui editor, which was expected 2 or 3 version earlier.i think u will see more updated version soon.
and udk recently has done many bug fix on iphone and android platform.also they have added some good 3rd party middleware intregation.they are working hard on that.and also they have money to give it free.
t3d is not closed source like unity and udk.i think that is why there is not too much updated version for it like unity and udk.
for t3d bug fixes always available in private forum.new features and options are always adding in resource section by forum memebers.
u do not have access on private section.so u have missed it.
the thing that i have missed in forum is too little contribution by GG developer's in resource section.after buying t3d may be i have seen only two resource by GG developers.and all of them may be for itorque
also there always happens a lot of time wastage for not having a patch fix for recent bugs.
after wasting a lot of time to fix any problem, when someone post the problem in forum for some solution and figure it out that it is an known bug,what kind of feeling a tired person can have?
not everyone have time and energy to read every thread post on detected bug and related fix.
#3
The move from TGEA to T3D introduced a lot of features, but also created a lot of instability. We've done a lot to stabilize the engine, which was a request of many of our users. I don't have the release dates handy like Mich does, but last year we had two big releases (although they were named beta, they were really more like point releases)...and this year we had two significant releases.
Recently, there has been some resource allocation changes on T3D. I'm going to dodge your specific question regarding count because there is some transition occurring and the number of developers at this very moment isn't necessarily indicative our allocation expectations for the year. The resource allocation of T3D today falls into three buckets: developers fixing bugs, our most senior developers (including the former R&D director for CryTek and a former Tech Director at THQ) who are working on larger architectural re-factoring, and a developer who is working on the Mac port.
The shift in allocation is because of an opportunity that we are pursuing and it could mean great things for our long term future. We'd love to dedicate more resources to the traditional model, but if we don't adapt, we will die.
I've talked with many tools developers and it's a very interesting time. There has been rapid commoditization with indie tools. Given the royalty models, rapid commoditization, and increase in torrents, all tool companies are forced to adjust and adapt their products to meet new monetization strategies. If companies are taking investment dollars to fund their future they best be investing in progressive business models...it's a different world.
02/16/2012 (11:27 am)
I think our version numbers are misleading a bit. We've had many releases of Torque 3D since Sept 2009. We've done millions of dollars worth of improvements and performance increases. The move from TGEA to T3D introduced a lot of features, but also created a lot of instability. We've done a lot to stabilize the engine, which was a request of many of our users. I don't have the release dates handy like Mich does, but last year we had two big releases (although they were named beta, they were really more like point releases)...and this year we had two significant releases.
Recently, there has been some resource allocation changes on T3D. I'm going to dodge your specific question regarding count because there is some transition occurring and the number of developers at this very moment isn't necessarily indicative our allocation expectations for the year. The resource allocation of T3D today falls into three buckets: developers fixing bugs, our most senior developers (including the former R&D director for CryTek and a former Tech Director at THQ) who are working on larger architectural re-factoring, and a developer who is working on the Mac port.
The shift in allocation is because of an opportunity that we are pursuing and it could mean great things for our long term future. We'd love to dedicate more resources to the traditional model, but if we don't adapt, we will die.
I've talked with many tools developers and it's a very interesting time. There has been rapid commoditization with indie tools. Given the royalty models, rapid commoditization, and increase in torrents, all tool companies are forced to adjust and adapt their products to meet new monetization strategies. If companies are taking investment dollars to fund their future they best be investing in progressive business models...it's a different world.
#4
So T3D is based upon TGEA? That is interesting, I guess I will read up on the deep end changes between the two. I have seen they both use the same TorqueScript it seems. It seems as if T3D is undergoing a "larger architectural re-factoring", that is great to hear that an investment has been made into making a more advanced engine.
Is there any plan to release a road map for iT2D and T3D so we can see what new features are coming and how often they are coming? It looks like the GarageGames guys are quick to respond to posts so I would love to know the future of something such as T3D and if there are any plans to move to consoles. It looks like Torque X was discontinued but then nothing replaced it. Is part of the large changes to T3D in order to move the engine to consoles? I am sure many people would love that.
02/16/2012 (8:16 pm)
Thanks for the reply Eric! It is great to see the head honcho on the forums replying to us, I have not seen that in any other place.So T3D is based upon TGEA? That is interesting, I guess I will read up on the deep end changes between the two. I have seen they both use the same TorqueScript it seems. It seems as if T3D is undergoing a "larger architectural re-factoring", that is great to hear that an investment has been made into making a more advanced engine.
Is there any plan to release a road map for iT2D and T3D so we can see what new features are coming and how often they are coming? It looks like the GarageGames guys are quick to respond to posts so I would love to know the future of something such as T3D and if there are any plans to move to consoles. It looks like Torque X was discontinued but then nothing replaced it. Is part of the large changes to T3D in order to move the engine to consoles? I am sure many people would love that.
#5
Roadmaps are a bit of a double edge sword for us. One one hand, I totally understand that developers want to see what's coming. On the other hand, setting everyone's expectations reduces agility. As you may know, we have new owners as of last year and right now they/we are still experimenting a bit...so for now, we are leaning towards agility.
02/16/2012 (10:07 pm)
Torque 3D has a 360 version and we also have a Wii version as well. 3rd party studios have ported Torque to PS3. Torque has an abstracted rendering and platform layer which makes it easier to port to other platforms.Roadmaps are a bit of a double edge sword for us. One one hand, I totally understand that developers want to see what's coming. On the other hand, setting everyone's expectations reduces agility. As you may know, we have new owners as of last year and right now they/we are still experimenting a bit...so for now, we are leaning towards agility.
Employee Michael Perry
ZombieShortbus
1.0: 9/30/2008
1.0.1: 10/13/2008
1.1: 12/22/2008
1.2: 5/8/2009
1.3: 1/5/2010
1.4: 7/13/2010
(company shutdown on 11/11/10)
(company reboot in January 2011)
1.4.1: 3/22/2011
1.5 Preview 1: 5/13/2011
1.5 Preview 2: 7/26/2011
1.5 Final: 9/29/2011
From 1.0 to 1.4.1, the engine did not have more than two people working on it at any given time. It passed through two other teams before it was brought in house development. With 1.5, the team grew to three solid programmers and a dedicated art team.
As for your other questions, I'll let Eric or David hop in.