The documentation... a little rant.
by Kyrah Abattoir · in Torque 3D Professional · 09/01/2011 (5:19 pm) · 13 replies
This is sort of a complain, i spent about a week trying to learn more about the engine, however all the books out there (which i sadly paid good money for) either treat of the legacy version of torque or of TGEA, basically there is no current book to work on that treeat of the current version of the engine.
Most of the tutorials take a very remote approach to modifying the scripts, they tend to all start from the full template rather than the empty template and not to scratch too much under the surface.
I paid nearly a tousand bucks in supporting torque from it's TGE iteration to torque 3D, i know that most engines tend to cost much more than this but there is a BIG problem of communication on this technology and i can't just poke around until i figure what is going on inside.
Is there a plan to add a DECENT documentation? and if yes, in how many DAYS can we expect it. Because, you know, after waiting for years, i'm getting tired, i know what i want to do but i can't find the informations i need to start making it happen. Am i supposed to wait five more years sitting on my hands?
For the little i know, i love the way torque do things and that's sad that it has been years now and i still can't use it for a lack of proper documentation (the search on the forum is terrible by the way).
There that was my early friday rant, i'm not even hoping for it to get me anywhere frankly.
Where is all the informations? Is it only in the engine developpers heads?
Most of the tutorials take a very remote approach to modifying the scripts, they tend to all start from the full template rather than the empty template and not to scratch too much under the surface.
I paid nearly a tousand bucks in supporting torque from it's TGE iteration to torque 3D, i know that most engines tend to cost much more than this but there is a BIG problem of communication on this technology and i can't just poke around until i figure what is going on inside.
Is there a plan to add a DECENT documentation? and if yes, in how many DAYS can we expect it. Because, you know, after waiting for years, i'm getting tired, i know what i want to do but i can't find the informations i need to start making it happen. Am i supposed to wait five more years sitting on my hands?
For the little i know, i love the way torque do things and that's sad that it has been years now and i still can't use it for a lack of proper documentation (the search on the forum is terrible by the way).
There that was my early friday rant, i'm not even hoping for it to get me anywhere frankly.
Where is all the informations? Is it only in the engine developpers heads?
About the author
3D artist, programmer, game designer, jack of all trades, master of none.
#2
09/01/2011 (11:36 pm)
[erased] 
#3
I have all the books bar the networking one since i refuse to pay the retarded shipping costs to get it from the US to the UK. The yellow book GPGT is a little dated yes, but the info and concepts it holds are unchanged even if the code has a little. The Finney books are being redone into a new edition and yes they are little less useful about the inner workings of torque, but as a game designer they give me ideas and notions and show me the first step of the long ladder. In either case, if you treat the code in the books like pseudo code you'll have a happier time.
I know you like moaning, but compared to the average Brit, your an amateur, but even we brits moan for a purpose, that purpose is designed to get stuff fixed and stuff done, mich is probably crying in his wheatos now because of you. YOU nee to cheer him up by giving him a direction, guide him to the specific areas of the docs that are not to your standards, help him on his journey to docuheaven, if he doenst know what areas to work on, he cant FIX IT! and mich is the FIX IT! guy.
09/02/2011 (5:59 am)
I'm a little confused, the documentation system is better than its ever been, sure theres areas that are missing, and on the whole they have been identified and to a bigger extend been discussed as whether or not they are torque specific or game specific documentationI have all the books bar the networking one since i refuse to pay the retarded shipping costs to get it from the US to the UK. The yellow book GPGT is a little dated yes, but the info and concepts it holds are unchanged even if the code has a little. The Finney books are being redone into a new edition and yes they are little less useful about the inner workings of torque, but as a game designer they give me ideas and notions and show me the first step of the long ladder. In either case, if you treat the code in the books like pseudo code you'll have a happier time.
I know you like moaning, but compared to the average Brit, your an amateur, but even we brits moan for a purpose, that purpose is designed to get stuff fixed and stuff done, mich is probably crying in his wheatos now because of you. YOU nee to cheer him up by giving him a direction, guide him to the specific areas of the docs that are not to your standards, help him on his journey to docuheaven, if he doenst know what areas to work on, he cant FIX IT! and mich is the FIX IT! guy.
#4
It just aint for the begginer sad to say but true.
Very few of the tutorials or documentation is easy to understand.
That said it is very good if you are well versed in coding and or scripting.
As I've been working with this engine for quite some time I'm comfortable
working with the complex documentation. That is the only way you will
be able to deal with it in its current state. You have to dig in and
learn it from the ground up. Making your own template would be a good
way to go.
09/02/2011 (7:16 am)
Just my little note on the documentation..It just aint for the begginer sad to say but true.
Very few of the tutorials or documentation is easy to understand.
That said it is very good if you are well versed in coding and or scripting.
As I've been working with this engine for quite some time I'm comfortable
working with the complex documentation. That is the only way you will
be able to deal with it in its current state. You have to dig in and
learn it from the ground up. Making your own template would be a good
way to go.
#5
Making my own template is basically what i'm doing, from the empty project, so far i got a couple things working. Granted i could have used the full project, i didn't want to mess with the weapon inventory system used in it because i need to write something completely different.
I need to get at least one weapon working in the empty project tho, for testing purpose.
09/02/2011 (7:24 am)
Sorry everyone, the tone was maybe a bit on the angry side considering i had spent half the night trying to get a player datablock accepted by the engine (it was entirely my fault, i assumed that i could create just "any" class while i had to use the "Player" class, and then define my event callbacks.Making my own template is basically what i'm doing, from the empty project, so far i got a couple things working. Granted i could have used the full project, i didn't want to mess with the weapon inventory system used in it because i need to write something completely different.
I need to get at least one weapon working in the empty project tho, for testing purpose.
#6
09/02/2011 (7:28 am)
I'm not brit, I'm french! :) 
#7
"u.bcz"
"u r"
"tried.like"
"i"
Random use of punctuation. Random use of spacing. Random use of capitalization. SMS-like wrinting.
ahsan, your posts are almost unreadeable.
Please start writing like a grown up person, this is not a gaming forum. We discuss technical information most of the times here, and your teen jargon (added to your not so clear english) turns very annoyingly to try to read your posts.
My english is FAR from perfect, but I really do try to express myself in a prolix way.
Thanks.
[/off topic]
I agree with Bloodknight. The docs are the better that have been in Torque history. It doesn't mean are done, but there is a clear direction of improvement.
And lets be honest, some time has passed since the last "old complained subject on gg's documentation", and that has to mean something ;)
09/02/2011 (8:17 am)
Oh jeez! [off topic]"u.bcz"
"u r"
"tried.like"
"i"
Random use of punctuation. Random use of spacing. Random use of capitalization. SMS-like wrinting.
ahsan, your posts are almost unreadeable.
Please start writing like a grown up person, this is not a gaming forum. We discuss technical information most of the times here, and your teen jargon (added to your not so clear english) turns very annoyingly to try to read your posts.
My english is FAR from perfect, but I really do try to express myself in a prolix way.
Thanks.
[/off topic]
I agree with Bloodknight. The docs are the better that have been in Torque history. It doesn't mean are done, but there is a clear direction of improvement.
And lets be honest, some time has passed since the last "old complained subject on gg's documentation", and that has to mean something ;)
#8
1) We staffed up a bunch of people on the 1.1 docs. We had around 6 full time people for several months. We covered a lot...is it perfect...no.
2) 1.2's focus is a really, really, solid tutorial. It is focused on an FPS, but the topics will help everyone. I've hired a full time documentation writer that worked for years on Microsoft docs and we've done everything we can to free up our internal guys so that they can work on it. We reviewed Unity, Shiva, and multiple UDK tutorials. When 1.2 launches, we will have THE BEST tutorial across the board.
We are committed to documentation...
The unfortunate problem is that documentation doesn't sell engines like screen shots unless you guys are telling people outside of our site that you like our documentation. So speak up if you do like what you are seeing!
09/02/2011 (12:15 pm)
Here's my response...we are listening...and I have proof!1) We staffed up a bunch of people on the 1.1 docs. We had around 6 full time people for several months. We covered a lot...is it perfect...no.
2) 1.2's focus is a really, really, solid tutorial. It is focused on an FPS, but the topics will help everyone. I've hired a full time documentation writer that worked for years on Microsoft docs and we've done everything we can to free up our internal guys so that they can work on it. We reviewed Unity, Shiva, and multiple UDK tutorials. When 1.2 launches, we will have THE BEST tutorial across the board.
We are committed to documentation...
The unfortunate problem is that documentation doesn't sell engines like screen shots unless you guys are telling people outside of our site that you like our documentation. So speak up if you do like what you are seeing!
#9
Anyway, you could always make a full template project and then dig around in it and take notes.
09/02/2011 (12:27 pm)
I'm going to point out that, even though you don't plan to use the full template you could still use it for reference. It has examples of almost everything you need for a very basic deathmatch FPS - just have to add teams and more spawn points, really. My friends and I had fun just running around the first Deathball Desert level shooting at each other.Anyway, you could always make a full template project and then dig around in it and take notes.
#10
Novack: I understand Ahsan Muazaheed posts were difficult to read but let's refrain from the public flogging, okay? The English language is difficult to grasp. You of all people should know that. Even those who do speak English as their primary language haven't quite mastered it.
09/02/2011 (12:29 pm)
Kyrah Abattoir: We understand the frustration you are having with our documentation that is why for the release of 1.2 we are focused heavily on better documentation to significantly improve the 48 hours experience with Torque 3D. I understand this doesn't help you in the short term but I want to reassure you that the release of 1.2 and our major tutorial will be a quicker release then you've come to expect from us. In the meantime how can we help you in the short term?Novack: I understand Ahsan Muazaheed posts were difficult to read but let's refrain from the public flogging, okay? The English language is difficult to grasp. You of all people should know that. Even those who do speak English as their primary language haven't quite mastered it.
#11
Interactive code tutorials may also be an idea, as they need less language other than the script language. Show things in the engine, show the code, show examples of variation. There is at least one tutorial like that for TGB which somebody made. Brilliant idea.
09/02/2011 (12:54 pm)
The English language makes no sense at all. You may want to find a solid translation service which can translate everything you have to at least Chinese, French, German and maybe Spanish. I imagine that would be a massive undertaking, though, and the TDN would still be in English (splitting the community there would be a bad idea).Interactive code tutorials may also be an idea, as they need less language other than the script language. Show things in the engine, show the code, show examples of variation. There is at least one tutorial like that for TGB which somebody made. Brilliant idea.
#12
-- Edited posted rather angry --
The point is not how good your language is, but rather the ones effort and care to express in a way for others to read.
I was not criticizing his english, but rather his writing style.
Btw, your note on "You of all people should know that" feels exactly like what you are supposedly speaking against. Would be better if you help us prevent people to write in SMS language, than to admonish people when we get tired of it.
09/02/2011 (1:20 pm)
@Christopher Tauscher:-- Edited posted rather angry --
The point is not how good your language is, but rather the ones effort and care to express in a way for others to read.
I was not criticizing his english, but rather his writing style.
Btw, your note on "You of all people should know that" feels exactly like what you are supposedly speaking against. Would be better if you help us prevent people to write in SMS language, than to admonish people when we get tired of it.
#13
I still feel completely new to the T3D engine yet I've been playing with it for about 6 months now, with T3D it's certainly a case of practice makes perfect.
Good luck with your time in T3D. :)
09/02/2011 (1:49 pm)
@Kyrah: Glad you found a solution to your problem, one thing I've noticed with (all) the Torque Engines is that it takes time to get used to the changes from previous versions, things such as features to something as simple as directory organization.I still feel completely new to the T3D engine yet I've been playing with it for about 6 months now, with T3D it's certainly a case of practice makes perfect.
Good luck with your time in T3D. :)
Ahsan Muzaheed
Default Studio Name
really sorry for that absolute rubbish.
[erased]