Publishing Torque games on alternate platforms (Android, etc.)
by tenth · in Torque Game Engine · 08/25/2011 (1:49 am) · 23 replies
Okay, I can't find a search function for this forum. That would be a good thing to have.
Anyway, I'm shopping around for an engine now and I'd like to know about using Torque on alternate platforms. I'm specifically thinking of Android, but I'm wondering how flexible this is in general. There's no specific Android version of Torque right now (I'm assuming that this is being worked on, or that it's being added to iTorque - is there any expected date for this?) but the bigger limitation appears to be in licensing. Torque is licensed for publishing on a personal computer only, or an Apple mobile device only, and doesn't seem to have flexibility for ports. Let's say I went crazy and wanted to publish for Meego, and I had the programming expertise to make that happen - is there any license under which I could do this?
Anyway, I'm shopping around for an engine now and I'd like to know about using Torque on alternate platforms. I'm specifically thinking of Android, but I'm wondering how flexible this is in general. There's no specific Android version of Torque right now (I'm assuming that this is being worked on, or that it's being added to iTorque - is there any expected date for this?) but the bigger limitation appears to be in licensing. Torque is licensed for publishing on a personal computer only, or an Apple mobile device only, and doesn't seem to have flexibility for ports. Let's say I went crazy and wanted to publish for Meego, and I had the programming expertise to make that happen - is there any license under which I could do this?
#2
@Alain - The ports you speak of performed by outsiders, but we oversaw/funded the work. It was an actual partnership, so it does not open the door for others. You are correct about the reselling part, though.
08/25/2011 (6:24 am)
@tenth - The search is in the very top right of the website. Your understanding of our licensing is correct. Under the current EULA, porting to another platform that we do not support is not allowed. If you are determined to do so, you would need to contact us for some kind of exemption license. @Alain - The ports you speak of performed by outsiders, but we oversaw/funded the work. It was an actual partnership, so it does not open the door for others. You are correct about the reselling part, though.
#3
I just reread the EULA, can you point out where the restriction to porting is located?
The way I read it, as long as the modifications are for his own personal use and not to create a competing game engine, I don't see how GG can stop him legally. If the functionality is not present then are we not free as developers to add it to the engine? Isn't that the main reason developers buy a source code license?
edit: Michael wrote: "porting to another platform that we do not support is now allowed" I thought he wrote "not allowed" but it does not seem to follow with the rest of the sentence "If you are determined to do so, you would need to contact us for some kind of exemption license." So if it is allowed then why do we need an exemption license?
08/25/2011 (6:55 am)
@MichaelI just reread the EULA, can you point out where the restriction to porting is located?
The way I read it, as long as the modifications are for his own personal use and not to create a competing game engine, I don't see how GG can stop him legally. If the functionality is not present then are we not free as developers to add it to the engine? Isn't that the main reason developers buy a source code license?
edit: Michael wrote: "porting to another platform that we do not support is now allowed" I thought he wrote "not allowed" but it does not seem to follow with the rest of the sentence "If you are determined to do so, you would need to contact us for some kind of exemption license." So if it is allowed then why do we need an exemption license?
#5
You could also add any functionality you needed (some snazzy water effect or whatever), but the only parts of the license that allow for distribution to non-licensees state specifically which platforms you may publish for.
So that answers most of my question, but I'd still like to know if there's something for Android in the works. If I knew that that was coming soon I could buy an iTorque license and start my development with the expectation of an easy port once Android support was available.
08/25/2011 (9:15 am)
Personal use means non-distributable. So if you had an iTorque license and wanted to do your development on an Amiga, you could port the development tools for your own use and do the work for the game there, but you wouldn't be able to distribute either the modified tools or the resulting game (for Amiga) since your license covers only distribution on Apple devices in object code format. You could also add any functionality you needed (some snazzy water effect or whatever), but the only parts of the license that allow for distribution to non-licensees state specifically which platforms you may publish for.
So that answers most of my question, but I'd still like to know if there's something for Android in the works. If I knew that that was coming soon I could buy an iTorque license and start my development with the expectation of an easy port once Android support was available.
#6
Hm, I might have to get someone who is better at explaining licensing than myself to post here. I'll take a stab at it:
You are granted the following:
Based on the definition of a Personal Computer:
Does NOT include a Mobile Device. Definition of a Mobile Device:
Exemption to Mobile Device:
I do see the part allowed for modification for personal uses, but this does not extend to game distribution (commercial or otherwise) or reselling of the engine with the modifications.
If what I posted is unclear, I can get someone else in here to try to explain it better.
08/25/2011 (9:18 am)
@Alain - I did mean "not". I fixed my post, but the two sentences were meant to flow together. You cannot outright do so without seeking permission.Hm, I might have to get someone who is better at explaining licensing than myself to post here. I'll take a stab at it:
You are granted the following:
Quote:2.1.1. develop and distribute in object code format only, an unlimited number of Games for Personal Computers;
Based on the definition of a Personal Computer:
Quote:1.8. "Personal Computer" means any personal computer, including but not limited to any personal computer that uses Windows, Mac, or Linux operating system software, but does not include any Console or Mobile Device.
Does NOT include a Mobile Device. Definition of a Mobile Device:
Quote:1.6. "Mobile Device" means any handheld or mobile device including but not limited to an Apple Mobile Device, the RIM Blackberry, a device running the Android operating system, or a device running the Microsoft Windows Phone operating system.
Exemption to Mobile Device:
Quote:2.2.1. Apple Mobile Device License. If the Software You have downloaded is a version of iTorque (including Torque for 2D for iPhone or Torque 3D for iPhone), the words "Personal Computers" in Sections 2.1.1 and 2.1.2 shall be replaced with "development and publishing exclusively on Apple Mobile Device."
I do see the part allowed for modification for personal uses, but this does not extend to game distribution (commercial or otherwise) or reselling of the engine with the modifications.
If what I posted is unclear, I can get someone else in here to try to explain it better.
#7
08/25/2011 (9:22 am)
@tenth - I cannot answer your question about Android support, as that is an internal discussion and roadmap decision that is outside of my hands. No one has spoken to me about extending iTorque 2D to run on an Android. I have gone to great lengths to make it more iOS specific and have no plans of watering it down again.
#8
08/25/2011 (10:07 am)
Thanks Michael for the clarification. I am planning on porting my new game (HoverBoarderZ) to Android in a few months. If I decide to port T2D to Android, who do I email for an exemption license?
#9
08/25/2011 (10:30 am)
@Alain - Hmm. Try e-mailing licensing@garagegames.com. If you want to make sure the community folks see it, CC myself and Chris.
#10
To a point, is understandable from GG to try to sell me the product already developed specifically for a given plataform.
However whats the point on giving me access to the source code if I cant extend the functionality as I whish?
08/25/2011 (10:33 am)
Still interested in this question:Quote:If the functionality is not present then are we not free as developers to add it to the engine? Isn't that the main reason developers buy a source code license?
To a point, is understandable from GG to try to sell me the product already developed specifically for a given plataform.
However whats the point on giving me access to the source code if I cant extend the functionality as I whish?
#11
Thanks, after I finish porting HoverBoarderZ to iOS, I will be doing a few Android tests. I will get back to you if I can get a basic demo to run on my Motorola Xoom.
08/25/2011 (10:45 am)
@Michael,Thanks, after I finish porting HoverBoarderZ to iOS, I will be doing a few Android tests. I will get back to you if I can get a basic demo to run on my Motorola Xoom.
#12
You can to an extent:
Going two steps further:
The spirit and exact language explains why source code access is provided. Found a bug? You can fix it. Have a cool addition you want to share, share it with other licensees. Need the renderer to do something it currently can't? Go for it. That's the intention, at least.
08/25/2011 (11:17 am)
Quote:However whats the point on giving me access to the source code if I cant extend the functionality as I whish?
You can to an extent:
Quote:2.1.3. develop a correction, improvement, or modification to the Software for Your personal purposes;
Going two steps further:
Quote:
2.1.4. develop and distribute in object code format only, a correction, improvement, or modification to the Software for use in a Game or Non-Game that You develop pursuant to Sections 2.1.1 or 2.1.2, provided that such correction, improvement, or modification is necessary for the operation of the Game; and
2.1.5. develop and distribute a correction, improvement, or modification to the Software in source code format, provided that such correction, improvement, or modification may only be distributed to persons who have licenses to the version of the Software to which the correction, improvement, or modification pertains.
The spirit and exact language explains why source code access is provided. Found a bug? You can fix it. Have a cool addition you want to share, share it with other licensees. Need the renderer to do something it currently can't? Go for it. That's the intention, at least.
#13
On the spirit or idea of what it intends, Im failing to see the point on preventing me to sell a game on a plataform you are not supporting with any other product, after the work to port it was done by myself.
But I guess its pretty abstract territory, and I understand it has to do with bussines decisions.
08/25/2011 (11:26 am)
Thanks Michael. Well, thats what I was tending to ask, whats the spirit, rather than the EULA language (which is rather ambiguous, given the terminology), as Im really no interested on make you guys transform it into an unreadable mess.On the spirit or idea of what it intends, Im failing to see the point on preventing me to sell a game on a plataform you are not supporting with any other product, after the work to port it was done by myself.
But I guess its pretty abstract territory, and I understand it has to do with bussines decisions.
#14
08/25/2011 (11:29 am)
@Novack - You are basically on the right track. It's primarily a business decision related to our main source of income: engine licensing. I'm not particularly adept at writing or explaining legalese. I can go ahead and ask someone to jump in here, if you want.
#15
08/25/2011 (11:39 am)
Thank you, Id' prefer not :) 
#16
08/25/2011 (2:32 pm)
Hey everyone, it's very much a business driven decision and part of our business model. Typically, when people have been asking for a license to a platform we don't support, we grant it with no charge as long as they are willing to share the platform specific code changes so we can use them for reference if/when we do support that platform. 
#17
08/25/2011 (5:08 pm)
To boil it down then - it's not "you can't do it," it's "you can't do it without working out a license exemption with GG." And it sounds like GG is fairly easy going in granting exemptions.
#18
Thanks for the further clarification Eric, that sounds so much nicer!
08/25/2011 (8:07 pm)
Indeed.Thanks for the further clarification Eric, that sounds so much nicer!
#19
08/26/2011 (7:03 am)
@Eric -- That sounds fair to me. 
#20
Then after I am comfortable with that process, work out the same thing for Droid. Droid has a huge market and growing. As a developer I want as large a market distribution of my product as possible, obviously. I am hoping I wont have to jump ship and go to a different game engine or try to develop the same game using two separate engines.
Torque has a great engine and nice support. I would really like to see a droid version. I would even be willing to donate time or code to see it happen.
Thanks for the info guys.
08/27/2011 (4:41 pm)
Excellent about the possible port. That has been my goal also. Setup the environment for Torque/iPhone game development. Create a product. Submission to Apples Market. Then after I am comfortable with that process, work out the same thing for Droid. Droid has a huge market and growing. As a developer I want as large a market distribution of my product as possible, obviously. I am hoping I wont have to jump ship and go to a different game engine or try to develop the same game using two separate engines.
Torque has a great engine and nice support. I would really like to see a droid version. I would even be willing to donate time or code to see it happen.
Thanks for the info guys.
Torque Owner Alain Labrie
Ware-Wolf Games